alt.atheism	about the bible quiz answers article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes the cheribums are the ark the covenant when god said make graven image was refering idols which were created worshipped the ark the covenant wasn wrodhipped and only the high priest could enter the holy holies where was kept once year the day atonement not familiar with knowledgeable about the original language but believe there word for idol and that the translator would have used the word idol instead graven image had the original said idol think you wrong here but then again could too just suggesting way determine whether the interpretation you offer correct dean kaflowitz
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics article timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu clam bake timmons writes fallacy atheism faith hear the faq beckoning once again wonderful rule deleted you correct you didn say anything about conspiracy correction hard atheism faith yes rule don mix apples with oranges how can you say that the extermination the mongols was worse than stalin khan conquered people unsympathetic his cause that was atrocious but stalin killed millions his own people who loved and worshipped him and his atheist state how can anyone worse than that will not explain this you again stalin did nothing the name atheism whethe was was not atheist irrelevant get grip man the stalin example was brought not indictment atheism but merely another example how people will kill others under any name that fit for the occasion look again while you never said the implication pretty clear sorry but can only respond your words not your true meaning usenet slippery medium deleted wrt the burden proof hard atheism has nothing prove then how does justify that god does not exist know there the faq etc but guess what those justifications were compelling why aren people flocking hard atheism they not and they won for one will discourage people from hard atheism pointing out those very sources reliable statements hard atheism look not supporting any dogmatic position fool say that the large group people that are atheists people exist who wish proselytize the same fashion religion how many hard atheists you see posting here anyway maybe just not looking hard enough second what makes you think defending any given religion merely recognizing hard atheism for what faith never meant although understand where you might get that idea was merely using the bible example allegory illustrate point and yes referring every reader the post where the evidence that the poster stated that relied upon evidence for what who think may have lost this thread why theists are arrogant deleted because they say such and such absolutely unalterably true because dogma says true not prepared issue blanket statements indicting all theists arrogance you are wont with atheists bzzt virtue your innocent little pronoun they you just issued blanket statement least will apologize qualifying original statement with hard atheist place atheist would you call john the baptist arrogant who boasted one greater than that what many christians today how that itself arrogant guilty charged what meant say was the theists who are arrogant are this way because they say other than that thought meaning was clear enough any position that claims itself superior another with supporting evidence arrogant thanks for your apology btw not worthy only seriously misinformed with your sophisticated put down they the theists your serious misinformation shines through explained above bake timmons iii there nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful life than some good memory alyosha brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes bennett neil how bcci adapted the koran rules banking the times august let see some guy writes piece with title that implies something the case then must that gregg you haven provided even title article support your contention this how you support position you intend have anyone respect gregg any questions and even managed include the above reference with head firmly engaged ass what your excuse this supports nothing have reason believe that this piece anything other than another anti islamic slander job you also have reason believe anti islamic slander job apart from your own prejudices have respect for titles only for real content can look this article want true but can tell you bcci was not islamic bank why yes what mere report the times stating that bcci followed islamic banking rules gregg knows islam good and knows bcci were bad therefore bcci cannot have been islamic anyone who says otherwise obviously spreading slanderous propaganda someone wants discuss the issue more seriously then glad have real discussion providing references etc see someone wants provide references articles you agree with you will also respond with references articles you agree with mmm yes that would very intellectually stimulating debate doubtless that how you spend your time soc culture islam got special place for you kill file right next bobby want join him the more you post the more become convinced that simply waste time try and reason with moslems that what you are hoping achieve mathew
alt.atheism	christian morality article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes yet still not believer god not concerned with disposition why beneath him provide with the evidence would require believe the evidence that personality given this god would find compelling the fact god could cause you believe anything wants you but think about for minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you because they wanted love you the responsibility you love god and take step toward him promises there for you but you have look for yourself those who doubt this dispute have not givin sincere effort simple logic arguments are folly you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools those who tried trick him with logic our ability reason just spec creation yet some think the ultimate you rely simply your reason then you will never know more than you now learn you must accept that which you don know
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article rusnews mantis mathew mantis mathew writes mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes atoms are not objective they aren even real what scientists call atom nothing more than mathematical model that describes certain physical observable properties our surroundings all which subjective this deserves framing really does atoms aren even real tell then those atoms have seen with electron microscopes are atoms now what are they figments our imaginations the evidence that atoms are real overwhelming but won bother with most evidence the moment sorry but having studied cell biology have say that can see through electron microscope therefore real laughable statement stuff deleted thank you thought was the twilight zone for moment still amazes that many people with science backgrounds still confuse the models and observables with what even they would call the real world jim halat article ursa bear com halat panther bears jim halat writes article apr princeton edu datepper phoenix princeton edu david aaron tepper writes you were liberal arts major weren tcha guess you never saw that photo the smallest logo the world ibm made with noble gas atoms krypton xenon forget the specifics atoms trees electrons are all independently observable and verifiable morals aren see the difference just for the record not that any kind information would likely affect your thinking have msee focus electromagnetics from penn photo the smallest logo the world does not atom make what was observed something can measure that matches what the mathematical model call atom had predicted much the same way that need both particle model and wave model for light the atomic model mathematical representation physical phenomena model that can and probably will continue change over time that makes subjective the model that however the model gives objective way talk about the physical world put another way the quantum mechanical model the atom allows for discussion the atom that will give repeatable and unambiguous results which objective however bohr and einstein duked out mid century the interpretation those reapeatable observable measurements quite subjective bohr said that the observable randomness atomic motion was inherent the nature the universe einstein said particle motion was deterministic but was our measurement shortcomings that introduced the randomness they were talking about the exact same results though jim halat
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes there lies the hypocrisy dude atheism takes much faith theism admit some people might think takes faith atheist but faith what does take some kind faith say that the great invisible pink unicorn does not exist does take some kind faith say that santa claus does not exist does and may for some people suppose certainly isn big leap faith say that these things and god exist suppose depends your notion and definition faith besides not believing god means one doesn have deal with all the extra baggage that comes with this leaves person feeling wonderfully free especially after beaten over the head with for years agree that religion and belief often important psychological healer for many people and for that reason think important however trying force psychological fantasy don mean that bad way but that what really someone else who isn interested extremely rude what still believed santa claus and said that belief santa did wonderful things for life making better person allowing live without guilt etc and then tried get you believe santa too just cuz did much for you call the men white coats soon you could get phone bake timmons iii nanci just babbling you know and are sure the author this quote please send email andrew cmu edu spring nature way saying let party
alt.atheism	southern baptist convention freemasonry with the southern baptist convention convening this june consider the charges that freemasonry incompatible with christianity thought the following quotes james holly the anti masonic flag carrier would amuse you all the following passages are exact quotes from the southern baptist convention and freemasonry james holly president mission and ministry men inc beaumont the inside cover the book states mission ministry men inc hereby grants permission for the reproduction part all this booklet with two provisions one the material not changed and two the source identified have followed these provisions freemasonry one the allies the devil page the issue here not moderate conservative the issue god and the devil page worthwhile remember that the formulators public school education america were freemasons page jesus christ never commanded toleration motive for his disciples and toleration the antithesis the christian message page the central dynamic the freemason drive for world unity through fraternity liberty and equality toleration this seen the writings the great writers freemasonry page jesus christ established the most sectarian all possible faiths page for narrowness and sectarianism there equal the lord jesus christ page what seems right the interest toleration and its cousins liberty equality and fraternity actually one the subtlest lies the father lies page the southern baptist convention has many churches which were founded the lodge and which have corner stones dedicated the lodge each these churches should hold public ceremonies repentance and praying the blood and the name the lord jesus christ over the church and renouncing the oaths taken the dedication the church and building page tony
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics article madhausc rfqo netcom com madhaus netcom com maddi hausmann writes clam bake timmons bill shit stirrer connor sorry gotta disagree with you this one maddi not the resemblence bill the nickname prefer half bake timmons bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	requests article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes bob you wanting excuse convert christianity you gonna have look elsewhere damn and did have hopes bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	thoughts christians article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes know you can get any physical problems passive christianity unlike smoking not that hard avoid christianity today anyway just ignore right keith err kent whadda you mean you didn see the smiley bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	what shit shoveler was amusing atheists and article qvn pinnj shelley washington edu jimh carson washington edu james hogan writes when the various bill conners and bobbys post here felt that their passive aggressive knock that chip off shoulder type approach meant that attempts reasoned argument would wasted still think that however while more primitive responses teasing bronx cheers sarcasm are somewhat satisfying apologies anyone who still thinks bobby performance artist some them feed pointless circular round hominem name calling witness precisely position newbie tried the point point approach debate with these types wasted both time and lifespan ignoring them not option since they don away and doing would leave one with large stretches complete anonymity this group what left healthy flaming sure occassion appeared little more than caustic boob some the bobby types but why waste breath arguing with someone whose most rational though process involves his excretory system and stand record recognizing these people long before most the rest the group let see what this timmons character has store for bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	christian morality article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes yet still not believer god not concerned with disposition why beneath him provide with the evidence would require believe the evidence that personality given this god would find compelling the fact god could cause you believe anything wants you but think about for minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you because they wanted love you first don expect them love they don even know exist secondly wouldn expect them love simply because they were creator would expect have earn that love the responsibility you love god and take step toward him promises there for you but you have look for yourself are you daft how love something don believe exists come back when you learned love your third testicle those who doubt this dispute have not givin sincere effort simple logic arguments are folly you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools those who tried trick him with logic our ability reason just spec creation yet some think the ultimate you rely simply your reason then you will never know more than you now learn you must accept that which you don know which point you have stepped over the line and become complete asshole even though your first offense won let slip becuase heard too goddamned many times you love jesus because deep your heart you cannibalistic necrophiliac because say and much more qualified assess your motivations than you are fortunately there are some things get accept evidence rather than faith one them being that until christians like yourself quit being fucking arrogant there will never peace you all made sure that bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	theism and fanatism was islamic genocide article dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes article horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes theism strongly correlated with irrational belief absolutes irrational belief absolutes strongly correlated with fanatism correlation not causation and belief that absolutes exist not the same thing belief absolutes any more than belief shortest route from thurles clonmel the same thing knowledge the irish roadsystem correlation not necessarily causation however you might have noticed the above allows conclude that the correlation between religion and fanatism based common features religious belief sorry for the long quotes but dont see where cut huh are you barking mad hardly theism not strongly correlated with fanaticism you say plus you could find stronger correlations you were actually interested the truth instead being you seeming are bigot theism correlated with fanaticism have neither said that all fanatism caused theism nor that all theism leads fanatism the point theism increases the chance becoming fanatic one could course argue that would fanatics tend towards theism for example but just have loook the times history when theism was the dominant ideology invalidate that conclusion that that the basic mechanism behind imo the influence stalin for that matter ayn rand invalidates your assumption that theism the factor considered gullibility blind obedience authority lack scepticism and are all more reliable indicators and the really dangerous people the sources fanaticism are often none these things they are cynical manipulators the gullible who know precisely what they are doing now some brands theism and more precisely some theists tend fanaticism grant you tar all theists with this brush bigotry not reasoned argument and reads like warm for censorship and restriction religious freedom ever read animal farm define irrational belief rational believe that reason always useful irrational belief belief that not based upon reason the latter has been discussed for long time with charley wingate one point that the beliefs violate reason often and another that process that does not lend itself rational analysis does not contain reliable information well there glaring paradox here argument that reason useful based reason would circular and argument not based reason would irrational which the first part the second statement contains information because you don say what the beliefs are the beliefs are strong theism and strong atheism then your statement not general true the second part your sentence patently false counterexample axiomatic datum does not lend itself rational analysis but assumed contain reliable information regardless what process used obtain compared the evidence theists have for their claims the strength their demands makes the whole thing not only irrational but antirational can agree with this until you are specific which theism say that all theism necessarily antirational requires proof which suspect you not have the affinity fanatism easily seen has true because believe nothing more than work hypothesis however the beliefs say they are more than work hypothesis don understand this can you formalise your argument frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	you will all hell decay cbnewsj att com dean kaflowitz writes article portal videocart com dfuller portal videocart com dave fuller writes jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all hell for not believing god prepared for your eternal damnation what you mean prepared surrounded thumpers like yourself has proven hellish enough and not even dead yet well here how prepared got one those big beach umbrellas some those gel pack ice things big coleman cooler which loaded with miller draft like miller draft sue new pair new balance sneakers sony watchman and couple cartons bonton cheddar cheese popcorn stuff deleted actually you get ton weapons and ammunition followers and hole some kind compound and wait for alan deguzman calvin smart almost scary guess calculus mathematica child progeny disclaimer the university can afford opinions hobbes most children are
alt.atheism	you will all hell article portal videocart com dfuller portal videocart com dave fuller writes jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all hell for not believing god prepared for your eternal damnation what you mean prepared surrounded thumpers like yourself has proven hellish enough and not even dead yet well here how prepared got one those big beach umbrellas some those gel pack ice things big coleman cooler which loaded with miller draft like miller draft sue new pair new balance sneakers sony watchman and couple cartons bonton cheddar cheese popcorn haven decided what wear yet what does one wear eternal damnation dean kaflowitz
alt.atheism	what shit shoveler was amusing atheists and article timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes james hogan writes fine sentiments from his very first post jim assumed attack hominem sarcastic innuendo shit shoveled conveniently forgets this course and then whines about his boredom hominem sarcastic innuendo absolutely forgotten hardly bored not really try not confuse life with life just can overcome the urge tease taunt folks who bound faq less onto with such chip their shoulder listen you one might think belonged some church appreciate the patience others who questioned your posting line line content basis though hard know what impact that might have had compared say shovelling fact were truly interested ending the thread wouldn have posted his last shit shoveled think only lamented that whatever the initial satisfactions past certain point circular abuse heaping was just that bake timmons iii there nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful life than some good memory alyosha brothers karamazov dostoevsky sincere questions why are you here what are you looking for jim
alt.atheism	societally acceptable behavior qvh tinnsg citation ksu ksu edu yohan citation ksu ksu edu jonathan newton writes article qgm news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes merely question for the basis morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior disagree with these what society thinks should irrelevant what the individual decides all that important this doesn seem right want kill you can because that what decide who society think this fairly obvious not really whatever particular society mandates there are always some the society who disagree with the mandates which societal mandates make the standard for morality how they define what acceptable generally what they feel right which the most idiotic policy can think what should the basis unfortunately have admit being tied least loosely the feeling that think intuitively know some things wrong awfully hard defend though how keep from whatever legal what moral position thinking for ourselves might agree here just because certain actions are legal does not make them moral mac michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts still have billion dollar deficits michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything anybody chesterton
alt.atheism	societally acceptable behavior guess delving into religious language area what exactly morality morals never thought eating meat moral immoral but think could how differentiate between not doing something because personal choice preference and not doing something because see immoral fall what the basis these morals are also consensus positions fall might makes right you brought out whatever right what societally mandated then whoever control the time makes what right mac michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything anybody chesterton
alt.atheism	christian morality article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes yet still not believer god not concerned with disposition why beneath him provide with the evidence would require believe the evidence that personality given this god would find compelling the fact god could cause you believe anything wants you but think about for minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you because they wanted love you not again there difference between believing that god exists and loving him for instance satan certainly believes god exists but does not love him what unbelievers request situations like this that god provide evidence compelling enough believe exists not compel them love him the first day after christmas truelove served leftover turkey the second day after christmas truelove served turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey days deleted flaming turkey wings pizza hut commercial and tlu gic bait ken arromdee arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu
alt.atheism	gulf war and peace niks article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes hawaii liberated from spain well you were going well until you hit this one hawaii was independent country coup americans led request annex the refused but eventually did annex several years later during the spanish american war the first day after christmas truelove served leftover turkey the second day after christmas truelove served turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey days deleted flaming turkey wings pizza hut commercial and tlu gic bait ken arromdee arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu
alt.atheism	christian morality article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes the fact god could cause you believe anything wants you but think about for minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you because they wanted love you same old bullshit not being given delusions and wishful thinking not have the option either loving obeying that which have reason believe the responsibility you love god and take step toward him promises there for you but you have look for yourself those who doubt this dispute have not givin sincere effort more bullshit assure you misguided youth made sincere effort was very painful being rational person raised christian home many others could tell the same story you choose not believe anyone experience which contradicts your smug theories bill mayne
alt.atheism	societal basis for morality apr cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes reply cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb morals come from what societally accepted why follow that what right have expect others follow our notion societally mandated morality pardon the extremism but couldn murder your brother and say that was exercising rights saw them was doing what felt good didn want anyone forcing their morality don follow your morality believe that morality subjective each person entitled his own moral attitudes mine are not priori more correct than someone elses this does not mean however that must judge another the basis his rather than moral standards while entitled believe what his own moral sense tells him the rest society entitled pass laws spelling out punishments for behavior that offensive the majority why how might makes right how can they force their morality why can what want who are they decide what disagree most criminals not see their behavior moral the may realize that immoral and not care they are thus not following their own moral system but being immoral good point but being immoral our opinion don let them choose make the decision that their actions are wrong for them for someone lay claim alternative moral system must sincere his belief and must internally consistent some sociopaths lack innate moral sense admit lean toward the idea innate moral sense but have little basis for yet how far can such concept extended and thus may incapable behaving morally while someone like hitler may have believed that his actions were moral may judge him immoral our standards you mean that could say would wrong for such thing but not him after all was behaving morally his own eyes and doing what chose what basis condemn other societies besides here the buzz words the idea that there are some actions wrong for all humans all societies holding that morality subjective does not mean that must excuse the murderer why not have objective suddenly david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell mac michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything anybody chesterton
alt.atheism	nicknames article dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu scott sauyet writes okay how about scott can anybody hear sauyet ssauyet eagel wesleyan edu could you speak can hear you sole intention was learning fly
alt.atheism	free moral agency article pxqs darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes dean kaflowitz decay cbnewsj att com wrote now what interested the original notion you were discussing moral free agency that how can god punish person for not believing him when that person only following his her nature and not possible for that person deny what his her reason tells him her which that there god dean think you letting atheist mythology great start realize immediately that you are not interested discussion and are going thump your babble would much prefer answer from healy who seems have reasonable and reasoned approach things say aren you the creationist guy who made lot silly statements about evolution some time ago confuse you the issue divine justice according the most fundamental doctrines christianity when the first man sinned was that time the entire human race and any punishment meted out would necessarily affect the entire race which was the sole representive all humans coming after him would being the same race species share that judgement has nothing with who deserves what from the perspective god humanity but one category created things and that category condemned duh gee then must talking christian mythology now was hoping discuss something with reasonable logical person but all you seem have for your side repetition the same boring mythology seen thousand times before deleting the rest your remarks unless spot something that approaches answer because they are merely repetition some uninteresting doctrine other and contain thought all have congratulate you though bill you wouldn know logical argument bit you the balls such persistent lack function the face repeated attempts assist you learning which have seen this forum and others the past speaks talent that goes well beyond own meager abilities just don seem have that capacity for ignoring outside influences dean kaflowitz
alt.atheism	morality constant was biblical rape last response this thread fell into bit bucket and vanished though appearing locally repost since always feel slighted when someone appears ignore one postings conversational thread don want rob think doing since this now dated however don feel compelled respond article apr watson ibm com strom watson ibm com rob strom writes was making two separate points both which attack face value bible interpretation judge the bible value today you judge based the way used today that what commentators actually say what rabbis teach etc suspect you meant this context the jewish tradition you have been referring one problem with highly interpreted tradition like this what happens when schism occurs and over time certain large and influential branches the heretical group come favor exactly face value interpretation judge the bible value when originally written you read the context its time not with today assumptions and compare the practices surrounding people while the context the time important value judgments must ultimately according current understanding least some base standard relative stability success society this obviously true comparing practices surrounding people for instance according the bible the surrounding people were immoral savages with repulsive and inhuman habits need look rather what those peoples were really like for instance what way better worship single god whose presence symbolically strongest tent temple over multiple gods some whose presence symbolically represented statue the bible own terms idolatry inherently evil but see evidence that the followers the various other religions the area and time were particularly bad people relative the people the bible scissors and cloth now the past our ancestors did cut cloth with scissors but they least knew that their inhumane neighbors cut with their bare teeth this was relatively enlightened step forward from their earlier barbarism and made the transition modern civilized paper cutting that much easier sounds good but presupposes teeth rending neighbors which see support for one can argue that post facto assertion inhumane neighbors can used make moral points but that doesn mean that the actual neighbors really were inhuman more the point such dehumanization the people across the river over the mountain even different people dwelling among all too common that complex and benign moral traditions have evolved based particular mythic interpretations that history interesting but still don think fair take that long tradition interpretation and use attack condemnation the original history note that speaking historical interpretation here for instance claiming that hammurabi eye for eye was primitive brutal retribution while moses version was enlightened benign fine because the tradition has since interpreted the phrase that way years ago they probably both meant the same thing sure arguing from parochial perspective belong this tiny tribe which has struggled against overwhelming odds for survival distinct tribe and this book the book tribe the book commands dedicate ourselves study improve the world and set example light the nations revered the book and think been successful scientists artists and musicians leaders important humanitarian causes hard for separate the success people from the virtue our book you have argue that have done significantly better with different book with book that another tribe with different book with book has done significantly better don belittle the accomplishments particularly the intellectual ones the jewish people have given trying think analogy since don know any other tribe that all similar the closest can think are the romany but don know enough about them make meaningful comparison think tradition reflective study flexible rather than dogmatic interpretation good thing think that with such attitude case could made that you could have done well starting with captain america comic whatever the babylonian equivalent would have been jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	satanic verses once again this posting has been delayed for about week falling between some software cracks article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes promised here rafiq zakaria discussion the nature the called satanic verses from which rushdie title has been taken rafiq zakaria muhammad and the quran penguin here follows introduction the controversial incident and apologetic explanation purporting show why couldn actually have happened the historicity the episode doesn matter what follows don know whether quoting gregg zakaria below anyway back current affairs rushdie has his own admission drawn the version given the orientalist watt among others this incident not something rushdie watt anyone else dug from nowhere well known story myth you will known according umar khan every muslim school boy and girl and presumably rushdie and gibreel farishta and then allowed his imagination run wild yes this what writing fiction all about rushdie was writing about crisis faith and chose this myth present placing the actor gibreel the role the angel whose name took rushdie was not writing history theology book and nowhere claims implies that this what actually happened somewhat like stories woven around the relationship between jesus and the reformed prostitute mary magdalene another myth those referring the arthurian mythos the grail legend the wandering jew dozens others you can stand read the work blasphemer consider salman rushdie children book haroun and the sea stories for idea the way storyteller specific storyteller works with existing story lines ridicule muhammad integrity muhammad mahound integrity not really impugned this part the story and there reason think this was rushdie intent gibreel the archangel produces the verses divine and satanic though doesn know their provenance not implied straight reading that muhammad influences them not voice never know such words classy speaker never was never will but this isn voice voice mahound eyes open wide seeing some kind vision staring that right gibreel remembers seeing lips moving being moved what whom don know can say nevertheless here they are coming out mouth throat past teeth the words being god postman fun yaar butbutbut god isn this picture god knows whose postman been ambiguous mahound somehow manipulating gibreel satan something else the answer not given sure the question raised this novel explores faith and the role revelation religion among other things addressing loss faith implicitly raises questions about the truth revelation but this novel proposes answers least not directly the very existence newsgroup named alt atheism raises the same questions more forcefully and does propose some answers which the real relevance rushdie mild fictional exploration filth and lies and asked for what got are next the fatwa list that rhetorical question course jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	who says the apostles were tortured another article that fell between the cracks article qiu innpq srvr engin umich edu ingles engin umich edu ray ingles writes evidence for the resurrection often claimed that the disciples were tortured death for their beliefs and still did not renounce their claim that jesus had come back from the dead now skimmed acts and such and found reference this happening stephen but others where does this apparently very widely held belief come from there any evidence outside the bible there any evidence the bible sure haven found any briefly there widespread folklore but good documentary evidence even solid rumor concerning the deaths the apostles further the usual context such arguments you observe martyrs for lie the willingness these people die rather than recant evidence for the truth their belief this adds the quite stronger twist that the proposed martyrs must have been offered the chance life recanting since don even know how where they died certainly don have this information the way even the case stephen not all clear that could have saved himself recanting the willingness true believers die for their belief jesus jim jones well documented martyrdom and itself says little see kings for biblical account the martyrdom priests baal jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	who has read rushdie the satanic verses another one rescued from the bit bucket over the years the furor over this book has been discussed and elsewhere the net generally the discussion comes down the contention the one hand that tsv contains such blood libel against islam merit not death than least banning and probably some sort punishment and the other that rushdie particularly non muslim western country had every right write and publish whatever chose regardless whether some muslims find offensive without fear persecution death naturally inclined the latter position but find myself interesting position because think this fine book only incidentally concerned with islam and moreover damned can find anything malevolently offensive over the years when have made this point various primarily muslim posters have responded saying that yes indeed they have read the book and had called such things filth and lies would rank rushdie book with hitler mein kempf worse and unfortunately these comments are usually generalities and attempts follow requesting explanations for what specifically offensive have met either with stony silence more generalizations inaccurate out context references the book which lead believe that few them have actually read corrections and attempts discuss the text context have been ignored anyway since seem the only one following this particular line discussion wonder how many the rest the readership have read this book what are your thoughts jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	morality constant was biblical rape this response originally fell into bit bucket reposting just bill doesn think ignoring him article jxd darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes jim perry perry dsinc com wrote some stuff about biblical morality though bill quote had little with what goes say bill sorry have been busy lately and only just getting around this apparently you have some fundamental confusions about atheism think many these are well addressed the famous faq your generalisms are then misplaced atheism needn imply materialism the lack absolute moral system however tend materialism and don believe absolute morality answer your questions how then can atheist judge value atheist judges value the same way that theist does according personal understanding morality that don believe absolute one doesn mean that don have one just explicit the line postings you followed that when express judgment moral issue basing judgment own code rather than claiming that some absolute sense good bad moral code not particular different from that others around they christians muslims atheists when say that object genocide not expressing anything particularly out line with what society holds your were ask why think morality exists and has the form does answer would mechanistic your taste that moral code prerequisite for functioning society and that humanity probably evolved morality know part the evolution our ability exist large societies thereby achieving considerable survival advantages you probably say that god just made the rules neither can convince the other but share common understanding about many moral issues you think you get from your religion think get and you get from early childhood teaching that you don like what god told people says nothing about god god commands says only that there was electrical event your nervous system that created emotional state that your mind coupled with pre existing thought set form that reaction think you been reading the wrong sort comic books but prying through the gobbledygook basically agree with what you saying believe that mental reactions stimuli such god commanded the genocide the canaanites mechanistic but course think that true you well reaction has little with whether god exists even with whether think does but god existed who commanded genocide could not consider him good which supposedly attribute god all this being you have excluded yourself from any discussion values right wrong goood evil etc and cannot participate your opinion about the bible can have weight whatsoever hmm yes think some heavy faq reading would you some good have much place discussing values etc any other person fact can actually accomplish something such discussion framing the questions terms reason for instance clear that environment where neighboring tribes periodically attempt wipe each other out based imagined divine commands then the quality life will generally poor system that fosters coexistence superior quality life agreed goal absolutist the other hand can only thump those portions bible they happen agree with and say this good even the act question unequivocally bad the standards everyone the discussion the attempt define someone group people excluded from discussion such that they cannot participate and their opinions given weight whatsoever the lowest form reasoning hominem poisoning the well and presumably the resort someone who can rationally defend their own ideas right wrong and the bible jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	origins the bible article apr nott eczcaw mips nott wainwright writes have been having argument about the origins the bible lately with theist acquaintance stated that thousands bibles were discovered certain point time which were syllable perfect this therefore meant that there must have been one copy certain time the time quoted acquaintace was approximately years after the death jesus you can tell your friend from that was publisher warehouse one time and saw thousands copies the joy cooking and every one them was syllable perfect have since sold all own and become follower the joy cooking the incident mentioned convinced once and for all that the joy cooking inspired god and the one true path his glory dean kaflowitz may the sauce with you
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics article qsum inng shelley washington edu jimh carson washington edu james hogan writes think you missed the point take alt atheism for instance exponent based anagram when fully extended translates dig tunnels deep store grain everywhere prepare for the coming struggle you doubt recognize this quote from chairman mao thus think you have admit that atheists have lot more their sleeve than you might have suspected agnostics will sent the gulag under the mao atheist new order now where did put little red book was that green jim god dead and the actor plays his part sting his words fear will find their way place your heart history without the voice reason every faith its own curse will teach without freedom from the past things can only get worse nothing
alt.atheism	christian morality dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote since this alt atheism hope you don mind strongly disagree the fact god could cause you believe anything wants you but think about for minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you because they wanted love you the responsibility you love god and take step toward him promises there for you but you have look for yourself indeed knock and shall opened you dan why didn this work firmly believed god for years but eventually realised was only deluding myself fearful face the truth ultimately the only reason what kept believing was the fear hell the mental states had sillily attributed divine forces devil attempts destroy faith were nothing more than imagination and easy achieve the same mental states will faith was just learned fear disguise those who doubt this dispute have not givin sincere effort god demanding too much dan what was believed for years sincere effort equivalent active suspension disbelief what was case rather quit god does not help keep the faith can besides concerned with god morality and mental health does she really want believe herself without any help revelations guidance anything can feel she has created why didn she make the task any easier why are supposed love someone who refuses communicate with what the point eternal torture for those who can believe love god just much she loves she wants seduce she know what simple logic arguments are folly you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools those who tried trick him with logic our ability reason just spec creation yet some think the ultimate you rely simply your reason then you will never know more than you now your argument the type you know once you try yet there are many atheists who have sincerely tried and believed for many years but were eventually honest enough admit that they had lived virtual reality what else but reason can use don have the spiritual means christians often refer conscience disagrees with the bible don even believe have soul fully dependent body indeed this body when goes with flames does identity god can entertain herself with copies she wants learn you must accept that which you don know what does this mean learn you must accept that you don know something right but learn you must accept something don know why this not the way prefer learn unwise merely swallow everything you read suppose write book telling how the great invisible pink unicorn has helped daily problems would you accept this since you can know whether true not note that the gipu also omnipotent omnipresent and loves just about everyone besides and she guiding every writer this planet you and and not just some people who write legendary stories years ago your god just one aspect his and her presence petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics the truth pihatie finou oulu physics the rule oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu chemistry the game
alt.atheism	gulf war selling arms article rusnews mantis mathew mathew mantis writes mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes from parallel thread much about definitions bombs etc deleted aaaahhh tell how many innocents were killed concentration camps hmm now how many more were scheduled enter concentration camps had they not been shut down because they were captured the allies hmm now civilians died that war matter what you civilians die what the proper course don sell the bastard arms and information the first place ruthlessly hunt down those who especially they positions power mathew agree this seems the crux your whole position isn that the shouldn have supported hussein and sold him arms fight iran agree and agree ruthlessly hunting down those who did but did sell arms hussein and done deal now invades kuwait just sit back and say well sold him all those arms suppose just wants use them now too bad for kuwait unfortunately sitting back and letting things not the way correct former mistake destroying hussein military potential did was the right move but agree with your statement reagan and bush made grave error judgment sell arms hussein really not the gulf war you abhor much was the and the west shortsightedness selling arms hussein which ultimately made the war inevitable right then agree more deleted mathew regards jim
alt.atheism	studies book mormon think that the transcedental temptation paul kurtz has good section the origins mormonism you might want look scott
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics article timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes from timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons subject amusing atheists and agnostics date apr gmt some big deletions many atheists show poor understanding human nature many people who would otherwise sympathize with their cause only shake their heads disbelief such childish ranting another string idiotic generalizations gad surprised got this far down the post guess some just like seeing their names crt like phil trodwell this space happy ram goddam volt cattle for rent prod into that tub with you right now but not cheap this radio hunter thompson
alt.atheism	where are they now perhaps prophetic that the week where are they now appears and can claim still active old timer news software gets bit rot and ships outgoing articles into deep hole somewhere anyway here repost article innf senator bedfellow mit edu tcbruno athena mit edu tom bruno writes which brings the point posting how many people out there have been around alt atheism since done damnedest stay top the newsgroup but when you fall behind you really fall behind these days you don have fall far behind last monday admittedly after long weekend but had messages just those few days aside from hiatus while changing jobs last fall been here since has anyone tried keep with the deluge inquiring minds want know also does anyone keep track where the more infamous posters alt atheism end once they leave the newsgroup just curious guess hell norway the rubber room the funny farm seminary not given know jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	strong weak atheism did that faq ever got modified define strong atheists not those who assert the nonexistence god but those who assert that they believe the nonexistence god there was thread this earlier but didn get the outcome adam nickname cooper adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws
alt.atheism	faith and dogma article apr edt neat toronto edu tgk toronto edu todd kelley writes light what happened waco need get something chest sadly understandable faith and dogma are dangerous yes religion inherently encourages the implementation faith and dogma and for that reason scorn religion fair you should really qualify this semitic western religions but you basically ahead and this later anyway have expressed this notion the past some christians debated with whether christianity leaves any room for reasoning claimed rationality quelled out christianity faith and dogma again this should really evaluated personal level for example there was only one jesus presumably and probably didn say all that many things and yet seemingly billions and billions christian sects have arisen perhaps there one that totally dedicated rationalism and believes christ pantheism would seem against the bible but amazing what people come with under the guise personal interpretation philosopher cannot christian because philosopher can change his mind whereas christian cannot due the nature faith and dogma present any religion this good point have here the quintessential christian sets system values beliefs for himself which work very well and every event experience understandable and deablable within the framework this system however also have individual who has the inability least not without some difficulty change which important because the problem with such system the same with any system one cannot open minded the point testing hypotheses against the basic premise the system without destroying whatever faith invested therein unless course all the tests fail other words the fairer way would test and evaluate moralities without the bias responsibility losing retaining system claimed that christian philosopher not christian but person whose beliefs the moment correspond with those christianity consider that person visiting guarding prison not prisoner unless you define prisoner simply someone prison can define prisoner someone who the moment prison can define christian someone who the moment has christian beliefs because person free not prisoner similarly person not constrained faith and dogma not christian interesting but again when seems basically boil down individual nuances although not always will admit and probably the mass oriented divisions which are the most appalling becomes irrelevant unfortunately admit word game going the dictionary definition religion religion concern over what exists beyond the visible world differentiated from philosophy that operates through faith intuition rather than reason webster now let beyond the word game don claim that religion causes genocide think that all humans were atheist there would still genocide there will always humans who don think there will always humans who don ask themselves what the real difference between themselves and people with different colored skin different language different beliefs granted religion like the gun that doesn kill anybody religion encourages faith and dogma and although doesn directly condemn people encourages the use just because thinking just because thinking that kills people which case the people become the bullets and the religion the gun merely offers them way more adequately some harm with themselves may bold extend your similie sure religion has many good qualities encourages benevolence and philanthropy take out only the bad things like faith dogma and tradition put the good things like careful reasoning and science the result secular humanism wouldn nice everyone were secular humanist please the supernaturalists you might even leave god there but the secular emphasis would cause the supernaturalists start thinking and they too would realize that belief god really doesn put anyone further ahead understanding the universe just poking fun the supernaturalists also understandable course not all humans are capable thought and still have genocide and maybe even some mass suicide but not much willing bet that todd todd kelley tgk toronto edu department computer science university toronto best regards adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article mvo blaze jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes think many reading this group would also benefit knowing how deviant the view articulated above which may not the true view khomeini from the basic principles islam from the point view atheist see you claim khomeini wasn practicing true islam but sure that would have said the same about you how member neither group supposed able tell which one you two really true muslim this very good point have already made the clear claim that khomeini advocates views which are contradition with the qur and have given arguments for this this something that can checked anyone sufficiently interested khomeini being dead really can respond but another poster who supports khomeini has responded with what clearly obfuscationist sophistry this should quite clear atheists they are less susceptible religionist modes obfuscationism answer your question the only way you can judge learning more about islam that reading the qur and understanding basic principles once one has done this relatively easy see who following the principles islam and who acting way odds with islam khomeini attributing superhuman status twelve muslim historical leaders variance with one basic principles islam which that human being metaphysically different than any other human being and sense any closer god metaphysical nature gregg
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes this supports nothing have reason believe that this piece anything other than another anti islamic slander job have respect for titles only for real content can look this article want true but can tell you bcci was not islamic bank seeing spending time responding propaganda responding this little sub thread really don feel deep need more than make statements the effect that the propaganda false someone wants discuss the issue more seriously then glad have real discussion providing references etc but you must admit that this more thorough argument supporting proposition than your propganda because say hope you can see why might not find this argument compelling you want refute point then but right well again doing much the poster was replying too quite busy and really don have the time respond full scholarly form every accusation that flippantly made someone who being clearly antagonistic and have you ever considered that perhaps these people actually believe what they say that they are not just spreading propaganda have considered but someone spreads falsehoods out ignorance then they are still spreading falsehoods those falsehoods generally not come out nowhere but are produced people who know that what they are saying least not the whole truth still consider such spreading falsehoods propaganda some level not position say since know nothing about the situation that does not estimation qualify having head ass bob never accused you having your head your ass takes quite some time dealing with someone before accusing them having their head their ass was accusing the original poster benedikt believe being impaired cheers gregg
alt.atheism	who says the apostles were tortured the willingness true believers die for their belief jesus jim jones well documented martyrdom and itself says little does say something about the depth their belief religion has both deluded believers and con men the difference often how far they will follow their beliefs have first hand even second hand knowledge how the original apostles died they began myth hopes exploiting for profit and followed that myth the death that would inconsistent real con men would bail out when was obvious would lead discomfort pain and death the story kings regarding the prophets baal help this debate one can easily assume that they believed that overwhelming vindication elijah would forthcoming was simply fool who would shown the fire from heaven was swift and their seizure and deaths were equally swift
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article unix portal com danb shell portal com dan babcock writes article mvo blaze jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes think many reading this group would also benefit knowing how deviant the view articulated above which may not the true view khomeini from the basic principles islam from the point view atheist see you claim khomeini wasn practicing true islam but sure that would have said the same about you how member neither group supposed able tell which one you two really true muslim easy just read the koran because the koran perfect there possibility disagreement okay see smilies this isn supposed serious post the other hand would suppose does has some motivation behind apparently the idea poke fun religion but there presumably some sort reasoning behind argument this statement worthless presuming the qur perfect religious text whatever that might there still plenty room for disagreement about its implications for issues far from essentials already responded the question how judgment might made between two people who fact disagree about islam which doesn presume anything about the qur other than its having sufficient clarity for all important disputes about the basic principles islam this hardly constitutes claim that two people could have disagreements about all issues relevant islam gregg
alt.atheism	societally acceptable behavior article qgm news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes from cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb subject societally acceptable behavior date mon apr gmt merely question for the basis morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior who society how they define what acceptable how keep from whatever legal what moral position mac wow you got thinking now this interesting question that recently there has been move society classify previously socially unacceptable yet legal activities the past seems there were always two coexisting methods social control first and most explicit legal control that the set actions define currently illegal and having specifically defined set punishments secondly and somewhat more hidden social control these are the actions which are considered socially unacceptable and while not covered legal control are scrictly controled social censure ideally socialization working should legal control hardly ever needed since most people voluntarilly control their actions due the pressure social censure the control manifests itself day day life guilt and morality heard said and fully believe that weren for the vast majority people policing themselves legal control would absolutely impossible lately last years however there has been move attempt dissengage the individual from societal control ain illegal then don pick not saying this wrong merely that byproduct society which has high education level high exposure alternative ideas via the popular media high level institutionalized individual rights and oriented culture guess what saying that appear state transition here the western world that still have many ideas about what can can allow people based entirely personal squeamishness yet are fully bent maximizing individual freedoms the max long those freedoms don impinge another imho society trying persue two mutually exclusive ends here while appreciate and persue individual rights these satisfy the old territoriality and dominance instincts the removal socialized inherent fears based ignorance will result the continued destabilization society got quick fix have idea how can get ourselves out this mess know would never consent the roll back personal freedoms order stabilize society yet believe development societies follow darwinian process which selects for stability can find social model which maximizes indiv freed yet stable perhaps possible live with non stable society anybody see way out comments therefore answer question don want phil trodwell this space happy ram goddam volt cattle for rent prod into that tub with you right now but not cheap this radio hunter thompson
alt.atheism	gulf war was death penalty was political atheists article rusnews mantis mathew mathew mantis writes don sell the bastard arms and information the first place ruthlessly hunt down those who especially they positions power looked back this and asked some questions various people and got the following information which had claimed and you pooh poohed the has not sold iraq any arms their navy entirely made ussr vessels their airforce not including stuff captured from kuwait which not sure about doesn include any equipment their missiles are all non their tanks are almost all soviet with about french tanks older ones the only stuff the iraqi arsenal few those were not sold iraq iraq captured them from other countries like kuwait information hard prove you are claiming that the sold information prove now how did the build iraq again just gave some fairly conclusive evidence that the didn sell arms iraq information hard prove almost certainly the did sell information then that fact classified and you can prove you can provide some useful evidence that the sold arms valuable intelligence iraq very interested but not you just make claims based what everyone knows mccullou whipple wisc edu never program and drink beer the same time doesn work
alt.atheism	who has read rushdie the satanic article innknk bozo dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes anyway since seem the only one following this particular line discussion wonder how many the rest the readership have read this book what are your thoughts read found wonderful for some reason flames please was reminded hemingway carl orff and van gogh not all once though geoff arnold nfs architect sun select geoff arnold east sun com what they made the whole thing the great lie four guys two thousand years ago over wine the tear garden
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality reply frank uucp frank dwyer the problem for the objectivist determine the status moral truths and the method which they can established accept that such judgements are not reports what but only relate what ought see naturalistic fallacy then they cannot proved any facts about the nature the world this can avoided least two ways leaving the good undefined since anyone who claims that they not know what either lying out touch with humanity undeserving reply the good undefined undefinable but you require everyone that they know innately what right you are back subjectivism defining the good solely terms evaluative terms ditto here evaluative statement implies value judgement the part the person making this point the objectivist may talk self evident truths pretty perceptive that prof flew but can deny the subjectivist claim that self evidence the mind the beholder course denying that subject object true dichotomy please explain how this helps don see your argument not what left the claim that some moral judgements are true nothing then moral judgements are true this thing that commonly referred nihilism entails that science value irrepective the fact that some people find useful how anyone arrives relativism subjectivism from this argument beats this makes sense either flew arguing that this where the objectivist winds not the subjectivist furthermore the nihilists believed nothing except science materialism revolution and the people the subjectivist may well feel that all that remains that there are some moral judgements with which would wish associate himself hold moral opinion suggests not know something true but have preferences regarding human activity and those preferences should include terrorism that moral opinion not true likewise the preferences should include noterrorism that moral opinion not true why should one choose set preferences which include terrorisim over one which includes noterrorism reason this patently absurd and also not the position the subjectivist has been pointed out you already others ditch the strawman already and see reply mike cobb root message the thread societal basis for morality david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	has risen reply kmr cwru edu keith ryan our lord and savior david keresh has risen has been seen alive spread the word jeez can get anything straight told him wait for three days god david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	college atheists read article about poll done students the ivy league schools which was reported that third the students indentified themselves atheists this lot higher than among the general population wonder what the reasons for this discrepancy are because they are more intelligent younger this the wave the future david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics reply timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons the same kind ignorance demonstrated just about every post this newsgroup for instance generalizations about christianity are popular which newsgroup have you been reading the few anti christian posts are virtually all response some christian posting some you will all burn hell kind drivel soft atheist courtesy the faq but even know enough about the bible see that repeatedly warns false prophets preaching the name god bake transparently obvious that you are theist pretending atheist you probably think you are very clever but see this all the time but the possibilities creator and eternity carry with them too much emotional power dismiss merely the basis this line but course you have dismissed them because you are atheist right just like any other religion hard atheism faith other words you didn read the faq after all david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	what shit shoveler was amusing atheists and reply jimh carson washington edu james hogan what someone with prediliction shit shoveling when the latest know what you atheists are about arrival shows ignore the bills bobbys bakes try engage reasonable discourse while flame fests have been among some the most entertaining threads here other tugs war with folks like bobby have grown old before their time take the view that they are here for our entertainment when they are longer entertaining into the kill file they david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics timmbake mcl ucsb edu half bake timmons writes maddi whirr click whirr frank dwyer might also contained that shell pop stack determine whirr click whirr killfile keith allen schneider frank closet theist dwyer maddi the mad sound geek hausmann already been named killfile keith nickname maddi never useful post hausmann and don you dare forget half there nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful life than some good memory alyosha brothers karamazov dostoevsky you really should quote ivan karamazov instead was the atheist maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don try this home remember post professionally
alt.atheism	death penalty was political athei date tue apr from mathew mathew mantis there great film called manufacturing consent noam chomsky and the media canadian film saw the berlin film festival this year you get chance and see can really recommend any books from having read them thinking ordering book which reviewer claimed gives good introduction his political activism could dig the title mathew could the chomsky reader edited james peck published pantheon
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics date apr gmt from bake timmons timmbake mcl ucsb edu remember koresh dried for your sins and pass that beef jerky umm umm though wasn there least can rely you now keep posted what what doing what cook off
alt.atheism	societally acceptable behavior cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes merely question for the basis morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior who society society the collection individuals which will fall under self defined rules terms decisions all the sets peoples who are represented the are considered part that society then look federal laws provided representatives purely citizens then the society for that case would the citizens the and how they define what acceptable acceptable are those behaviours which are either legislated for the society representatives that society those behaviours which are non verbally and effect non consciously such picking your nose the oprah winfrey show one does but there explicit law against doing many cases there are definition whether not behaviour acceptable but one can deduce these behaviours observation how keep from whatever legal what moral position increasingly litigation mad society this trap becoming exceedingly difficult avoid with the infusion and strengthening ethnic cultures american and australian bring local perspective culture the boundaries acceptable behaviour are ever widening and legislation may eventually become the definition moral behaviour for instance some cultures dominant religion call for live sacrifice domesticated animals most fundamental christians would find this practice abhorrent however moral according the multicultural american society this kind problem may only definable legislation obviously within any society there will differences opinion what acceptable behaviour not and much this will due different environmental circumstances rather than merely different opinions one thing for sure there universal moral code which will suit all cultures all situations there may however some globally accepted mores which can agreed upon and instantiated globally enforcable concept the majority mores will not common until all peoples upon this earth are living similar environment that ever happens jeff nonickname clark
alt.atheism	you will all hell article apr nuscc nus cmtan iss nus tan chade meng dan writes from cmtan iss nus tan chade meng dan subject you will all hell date tue apr gmt article jsn psuvm psu edu jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all hell for not believing god prepared for your eternal damnation arrgg another one those another letter the big guy dear god please take them back heaven leave rational intelligent people alone love meng the unenlightened one tan chade meng there light the end the tunnel singapore cmtan iss nus coming train meng have better prayer dear god please save the world from the likes these tammy
alt.atheism	you will all hell article cbnewsj att com decay cbnewsj att com dean kaflowitz writes from decay cbnewsj att com dean kaflowitz subject you will all hell date tue apr gmt article portal videocart com dfuller portal videocart com dave fuller writes jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all hell for not believing god prepared for your eternal damnation what you mean prepared surrounded thumpers like yourself has proven hellish enough and not even dead yet well here how prepared got one those big beach umbrellas some those gel pack ice things big coleman cooler which loaded with miller draft like miller draft sue new pair new balance sneakers sony watchman and couple cartons bonton cheddar cheese popcorn haven decided what wear yet what does one wear eternal damnation dean kaflowitz you should wear your nicest boxer shorts and bring plenty spf sunscreen grab bathing suit towerl and some veggie hotdogs and can have bonfire cookout does that sound good enough you dean every poster invited tammy trim healy
alt.atheism	death penalty gulf war long from jbrown batman bmd trw com actually was the fact that both situations existed that prompted and allied action some back water country took over some other back water country probably wouldn intervene not that don care but can the world policman coup had occured kuwait instead invasion then still wouldn have acted because there would not have been the imminent danger perceived saudi arabia but the combination the two unprovoked invasion genocidal tyrant and the potential danger the west oil interests caused take action there are many indications that would have taken place had saddam been wanting planning going into saudi arabia there were none this has been openly stated pentagon analysts pull from jbrown batman bmd trw com not setting strawman all you want argue against the war then the only logical alternative was allow hussein keep kuwait diplomatic alternatives including sanctions were ineffective actually reports from other mid east countries showed that hussein was ready make concessions due the sanctions just didn want him wanted crush him well battle test all these high tech toys built over the years from jbrown batman bmd trw com probably because not the saviors the world can police each and every country that decides self destruct invade another nor are strategic position get relief tibet east timor some other places also hypocrites the first magnitude obviously don give shit about freedom and democracy all care about our oil and the excuse now that the soviets are gone from the board keep sizable military presence the gulf region care make bets about when all our troops will come home basically saddam was with was killer who tortured his own people used gas them and other horrors was brutal dictator but was our brutal dictator once said fuck you the became the next hitler the same for noriega was bastard but was our bastard until changed his mind and went his own way then had get rid him david hunt graduate slave mind own towards both mechanical engineering are ideas opinions palestinian and carnegie mellon university use golden rule jewish homeland email bluelobster cmu edu working towards piled higher and deeper will great day when scientists and engineers have all the money they need and religions have beg for money pay the priest
alt.atheism	societally acceptable behavior article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes qvh tinnsg citation ksu ksu edu yohan citation ksu ksu edu jonathan newton writes article qgm news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes merely question for the basis morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior disagree with these what society thinks should irrelevant what the individual decides all that important this doesn seem right want kill you can because that what decide exactly although this may dissapointing answer there has interplay the two personal ethos and societal morality person self generated learned set beliefs are usually expressed purely mental verbal level and don usually find expression society except impure not the sense bad state sometimes this has who society think this fairly obvious not really whatever particular society mandates there are always some the society who disagree with the mandates which societal mandates make the standard for morality also what one feels oneself part more than one society very real sense use the obvious example there political society and racial society and gender society and sometimes they not always agree every issue how they define what acceptable generally what they feel right which the most idiotic policy can think what should the basis unfortunately have admit being tied least loosely the feeling that think intuitively know some things wrong awfully hard defend though yes perhaps with infamous what you want long doesn hurt others the problem with this that merely saying what you can not morality that doesn propound any specifically preferred behaviours how keep from whatever legal what moral position thinking for ourselves might agree here just because certain actions are legal does not make them moral add hearty two however one could just well say just because certain actions are moral does not make them legal one still doesn really get impression which one truly right mac michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts still have billion dollar deficits michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything anybody chesterton best regards adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws
alt.atheism	societally acceptable behavior article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes guess delving into religious language area what exactly morality morals hope there not one with subject like this you just have spiral what would then morality morality morals labels don make arguments one really needs solid measuring stick which most actions can interpreted even though this would hardly seem moral for example the best thing for ensure that will eat and drink enough hence all actions must weighed against this one statement whatever helps this goal moral whatever does not immoral course this leads such blank space there are many different ways fulfill goal one would need hyper morality apply just the methods never thought eating meat moral immoral but think could how differentiate between not doing something because personal choice preference and not doing something because see immoral fall what the basis these morals are seems only consider something moral immoral stop think about long enough the other hand maybe our first gut reaction which who knows perhaps here have way discriminate morals don instinctively thing vegetarianism right the same way instinctively feel torture wrong but thought about long enough and listened the arguments could perhaps reason that was wrong that possible see the difference also consensus positions fall might makes right you brought out whatever right what societally mandated then whoever control the time makes what right mac michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything anybody chesterton best regards adam adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws
alt.atheism	societal basis for morality article sad news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes apr cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes reply cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb morals come from what societally accepted why follow that what right have expect others follow our notion societally mandated morality pardon the extremism but couldn murder your brother and say that was exercising rights saw them was doing what felt good didn want anyone forcing their morality don follow your morality believe that morality subjective each person entitled his own moral attitudes mine are not priori more correct than someone elses this does not mean however that must judge another the basis his rather than moral standards while entitled believe what his own moral sense tells him the rest society entitled pass laws spelling out punishments for behavior that offensive the majority why how might makes right how can they force their morality why can what want who are they decide what disagree well agree with you the sense that they have moral right inflict these rules but there one thing might add the very least almost everybody wants avoid pain and that means sacrificing some stuff for herd morality then most criminals not see their behavior moral the may realize that immoral and not care they are thus not following their own moral system but being immoral good point but being immoral our opinion don let them choose make the decision that their actions are wrong for them right and since they grew and learned around they have some idea our right and wrong which think must part incorporated very rarely you see criminal behaviour for philosophical reasons for someone lay claim alternative moral system must sincere his belief and must internally consistent some sociopaths lack innate moral sense admit lean toward the idea innate moral sense but have little basis for yet how far can such concept extended stuff deleted you mean that could say would wrong for such thing but not him after all was behaving morally his own eyes and doing what chose what basis condemn other societies besides here the buzz words the idea that there are some actions wrong for all humans all societies holding that morality subjective does not mean that must excuse the murderer why not have objective suddenly david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell mac michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything anybody chesterton best regards adam adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws
alt.atheism	you will all hell article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes you should wear your nicest boxer shorts and bring plenty spf sunscreen grab bathing suit towerl and some veggie hotdogs and can have bonfire cookout does that sound good enough you dean every poster invited there room for nudists after all you believe most upstanding moral churches nudity sin sole intention was learning fly
alt.atheism	free moral agency article minster york cjhs minster york writes are you saying that their was physical adam and eve and that all humans are direct decendents only these two human beings then who were cain and able wives couldn their sisters because didn have daughters were they non humans genesis and the days adam after begat seth were eight hundred years and begat sons and daughters felicitations chris stuart still incestuous adam what happened sig cooper
alt.atheism	test ignore test adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws understand one another fear beyond your comprehension gandalf
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and anarchists article timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes mccullou whipple wisc edu writes the line about atheists haveing something their sleeves what seemed imply that sorry been reading too much the clipper project lately and the paranoia over there may have seeped some what the clipper project btw the clipper initiative announcement clinton that all the secure voice phones will use the same crypto chip facto government standard problem the government admitting that they hold the keys break the code easily and the justice department will using the keys listen illegal activities many people are really scared about such initiative because major step towards outlawing real crypto protection things like email you read the press release the project was developed nsa and given nist uses two keys and that the government claims are needed break the code they claim that these keys will handed two different companies and when they get warrant wiretap the chip nicknamed the wiretap chip they have get the keys from both companies people have poked holes through and through the press release official version and shown how nowhere near nice sounds and have given the simplified version people over sci crypt are really scared about this proposal seems mccullou whipple wisc edu never program and drink beer the same time doesn work
alt.atheism	the pope jewish date tue apr gmt from bruce rakes bruce cortex dixie com mcgoy unicorn acs ttu edu david mcgaughey writes always thought that the pope was bear you know because that little saying does bear shit the woods the pope catholic there must some connection between those two lines and always heard the bear catholic does the pope nevermind bruce rakes software systems manager elekta instruments inc executive park suite atlanta voice fax email bruce elekta com anyone from alabama knows should the bear catholic does pope shit the woods the pope may not bear but the bear god paul bear bryant football coach god university alabama
alt.atheism	faith and dogma tgk toronto edu todd kelley writes light what happened waco need get something chest faith and dogma are dangerous religion inherently encourages the implementation faith and dogma and for that reason scorn religion don necessarily disagree with your assertion but disagree with your reasoning faith bad dogma bad religion faith dogma religion bad bad religion bad unfortunately you never state why faith and dogma are dangerous you believe faith and dogma are dangerous because what happened waco you are missing the point the branch davidians made the mistake confusing the message with the messenger they believed koresh was prophet and therefore believed everything said the problem wasn the religion was the followers they didn die because faith and dogma they died because their zealotry the case the children the zealotry their parents have expressed this notion the past some christians debated with whether christianity leaves any room for reasoning claimed rationality quelled out christianity faith and dogma christians are totally irrational irrational with respect their religion only what are you saying one belief christian god does not make one totally irrational think know what you were getting but rather hear you expand the subject philosopher cannot christian because philosopher can change his mind whereas christian cannot due the nature faith and dogma present any religion again this statement too general christian perfectly capable being philosopher and absolutely capable changing his her mind faith god belief and all beliefs may change would you assert that atheists would make poor philosophers because they are predisposed not believe god which course may show unfair bias when studying say religion claimed that christian philosopher not christian but person whose beliefs the moment correspond with those christianity consider that person visiting guarding prison not prisoner unless you define prisoner simply someone prison can define prisoner someone who the moment prison can define christian someone who the moment has christian beliefs because person free not prisoner similarly person not constrained faith and dogma not christian christianity prison ever heard parole you have read far too much into this subject christian one who follows the religion based the teachings man named jesus christ nowhere does this definition imply that one cannot change one mind prison however you can just decide leave one voluntary the other not the two are not compatible religion like the gun that doesn kill anybody religion encourages faith and dogma and although doesn directly condemn people encourages the use just because thinking just because thinking that kills people prefer think religion water pistol filled with urine seriously though some but certainly not all religions condemn groups people the common target the infidel curious being who alternately atheist non insert specific religious affiliation here person different race egyptian please explain how just because thinking kills people and please state more your answer than waco course not all humans are capable thought and still have genocide and maybe even some mass suicide but not much willing bet that see your conscientious peacenik and raise you religious zealot with bad acne the way wasn aware mass suicide was problem waco and jonestown were isolated incidents mass suicides are far from common kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad edu blacksburg virginia
alt.atheism	church satan was islamic authority sic over women david rice ofa fidonet org writes who marshall csugrad edu kevin marshall what csugrad edu yeah hilarious satanists believe satan god but not the only god satan part christian mythology therefore one cannot reasonably worship satan without acknowledging the existence christian god satanists see satan their master and they see god and satan adversaries similar power satanists believe the eventual overthrow god and transfer all power their master kevin marshall great many satanists not believe satan some some don far assert that most orthodox satanists not worship satan church satan etc but rather worship self hear lavey say only idiots and fools believe satan and allah knew that suckers are born every minute maximus anton lavey interpretation satanism has always puzzled read his satanic bible few years ago for social studies project well book arthur lyons called the cult devil worship america the latter included very interesting interview with the black pope which did indeed say that satan was merely instrument for one realize the self when refer satanism referring the mishmash rural satanic ritualism and witchcraft which existed before the church satan don consider lavey church all orthodox nor consider its followers satanists lavey combined the philosophies nietzsche crowley and reich slapped some religious doctrine added little touch barnum and christened his creation the church satan doubt the title was calculated attempt attract attention suppose could have just easily called the church free sex any rate worked for while its heyday the church had huge following including such hollywood celebrities sammy davis and jayne mansfield have picture lavey with sammy the way find the idea satanist not believing satan about credible christian not believing christ but you include the church satan then suppose need alter definition webster dictionary and the american heritage dictionary will have the same kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad edu blacksburg virginia
alt.atheism	who has read rushdie the satanic verses article edm apr gocart twisto compaq com edm twisto compaq com mccreary writes while the topic books has anyone else noticed that paine the age reason hard find been wanting pick copy for while but not bad enough mail order noticed though that none the bookstores seem carry thought this was supposed classic what the deal too our local used book store the second largest the west coast and couldn find copy there guess atheists hold their bibles much esteem the theists bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	islamic genocide article horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article qkovl fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes false dichotomy you claimed the killing were not religiously motivated and saying that wrong not saying that each and every killing religiously motivate spelled out detail which killings you say are religously motivated for example would claim that the recent assassination four catholic construction workers who had connection with the ira was probably religously motivated the time writing think that someone who claims the current violence motivated religion reaching what would you call when someone writes the killings are not religously motivated now possible argue that religion the past major contributing factor the violence the present but don know any evidence that this and not enough historian debate given that the avowed aim the ira take northern ireland into country that has particular church written into its constitution and which has restriction civil rights dictated that church fail see why the word past appropriate but claim that the killings are not religously motivated grotesque all that means that the church and believers are doing what they always with history they can face they rewrite you attacking different claim claim that when ira terrorist plants bomb warrington does not have motive the greater glory god sorry frank but what put quotes your own words from your posting horus mchp sni don tell now that different claim you can longer stand behind your original claim just say mean the same thing when say the killings are not religously motivated when say when terrorist plants bomb doesn have religious motive the example meant clarify not new claim the different claim which refer the claim which you were seemingly attacking the previous post namely that religion not major historical cause the present violence don assert that nor assert its opposite you don have hand bunch double talk about what was seemingly attacking quoted what was attacking jon
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes understanding that blasphemy laws yes they exist the although they are little used apply only anglican christianity how does this fit with your claim that there state religion the why don you ask the approx two million british muslims who break five times day and have never ever been prosecuted under then ask how easy hold christian church service saudi arabia jon
alt.atheism	who has read rushdie the satanic verses article innknk bozo dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes anyway since seem the only one following this particular line discussion wonder how many the rest the readership have read this book what are your thoughts read when first came out and the controversy broke put name the waiting list the library that way the book was really offensive none money would find its way the author publisher and read cover cover use phrase that seems popular here right now and liked the writing style was little hard get used but was well worth the effort coming from similar background rushdie grew bombay muslim family and moved england grew new delhi made strong impression and used many the strange constructions indian english the yaar the end sentence butbutbut the occasional hindi phrase etc the time still sorta kinda thought myself muslim and couldn see what the flap was all about seemed clear that this was allegory was clear that described some local prostitutes who took the names and personae muhammed wives and had not grandfather thundered implied that muhammed wives were prostitutes short every angry muslim that had read even part the book seemed have missed the point completely and won mention the fact that the most militant them had never even seen the book oops just did perhaps deep sense the book insulting islam because exposes the silliness revealed religion why does omnipotent deity need agent she can come directly can she how know that muhammed didn just out into the desert and smoke something and how know that the scribes dictated the quran didn screw put their own little verses and why can muhammed marry more than four women when other muslim allowed although think the biggest insult islam that the majority its followers would want suppress book sight unseen the say some holy guy not mention murder the author over the years when have made this point various primarily muslim posters have responded saying that yes indeed they have read the book and had called such things filth and lies would rank rushdie book with hitler mein kempf worse and had much the same response when tried talk about the book really silly argument after all how many these same people have read mein kampf just made wonder what are they afraid why don they just read the book and decide for themselves maybe the reaction the muslim community the book and the absence protest from the liberal muslims khomeini fatwa outrage was the final push needed into atheism shamim mohamed uunet noao cmcl arizona shamim shamim arizona edu take this cross and garlic here mezuzah jewish page the koran muslim and zen buddhist you your own member the league for programming freedom write lpf uunet net
alt.atheism	the universe and black holes was years article apr iastate edu iastate edu warren vonroeschlaub wrote let say that drop marble into the black hole races ever faster towards the even horizon but thanks the curving space caused the excessive gravity the object approaches the event horizon has further travel integrating the curve gives time reach the event horizon infinity the math says that nothing can enter black hole not true only observer rest infinite distance from the black hole will see the particle take infinite time reach the horizon the particle own reference frame takes very finite time reach the horizon and the singularity the math does indeed predict this take look mitchner thorne and wheeler gravitation peter walker don forget sing they say there heaven for those who will wait some say better but say ain rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes article qla afp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes hope islamic bank something other than bcci which ripped off many small depositors among the muslim community the and elsewhere grow childish propagandist bbci was example islamically owned and operated bank what will someone bet they weren real islamic owners and operators islamic bank bank which operates according the rules islam regard banking this done explicitly the bank this was not the case with bcci now you are saying that islamic bank something other than bcci would you care explain why was that when said hope islamic bank something other than bcci you called childish propagandist jon
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes the difference understand that when one invests one shares the risk the venture whereas when bank lends money while charging interest the bank takes little risk the entire business bank the management risk that what bank for that what people who work for banks something like that anyway financial stuff ain thing but that case why are you posting about what hear you saying don understand this stuff but islam says jon
alt.atheism	cruel was political atheists article qnpe inn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes they spent quite bit time the wording the constitution realise that this widely held belief america but fact the clause cruel and unusual punishments like lot the rest was lifted from the english bill rights just because the wording elsewhere does not mean they didn spend much time the wording the part the posting you have helpfully deleted pointed out that they used the wording from the english bill rights apparently changing what they understood and asked why then should two hundred years later bound what keith allan schneider thinks they understood have already looked the dictionary define the word isn this sufficient since the dictionary said that lack mercy intent inflict injury grief counted cruel sure people can described cruel this way but punishments cannot one cannot say cruel fate your prevarications are getting increasingly unconvincing think jon
alt.atheism	cruel was political atheists article apr bmerh bnr dgraham bmers bnr douglas graham writes article qnedm fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article mdinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes they spent quite bit time the wording the constitution realise that this widely held belief america but fact the clause cruel and unusual punishments like lot the rest was lifted from the english bill rights according jerry mander the absence the sacred good book btw the great binding law the iroquois confederacy also played significant role model for the constitution furthermore apparently marx and engels were strongly influenced study iroquois society using the prime example successful classless egalitarian noncoercive society mander goes say that both the and the would well study the original document figure out where each went wrong and try get right next time that fascinating heard that the chinese rather than the italians invented pasta jon
alt.atheism	political atheists article qnp inn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes perhaps the chimps that failed evolve cooperative behaviour died out and are left with the ones that did evolve such behaviour entirely chance that the entire point that the point evolution not the point natural morality unless course have suggested several times already natural morality just renaming are you going proclaim natural morality every time organism evolves cooperative behaviour yes natural morality morality that developed naturally but your yes actually stronger than this you are agreeing that every time organism evolves cooperative behaviour you are going call natural morality what about the natural morality bee dance huh bee dance naturally developed piece cooperative behaviour jon
alt.atheism	political atheists article apr daffy wisc edu mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes article afp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article ajinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes well chimps must have some system they live social groups they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior the verb must was warned about that one back kindergarten why must they have such laws jon hey must verb some languages just happens only modifier english but the verb the sentence have this modified must know that must verb some languages complaining about the assertion containing the word must jon
alt.atheism	little too satanic article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes jon livesey writes what said was that people took time copy the text correctly translations present completely different issues why read the papers that the qumram texts had different versions some texts did misunderstand reading newspapers learn about this kind stuff not the best idea the world newspaper reporters are notoriously ignorant the subject religion and are prone exaggeration the interests having real story that bigger headline let back this point have the masoretic text the various targums translations commentaries aramaic etc and the septuagint the ancient greek translation the masoretic text the standard jewish text and essentially does not vary some places has obvious corruptions all which are copied faithfully from copy copy these passages the past were interpreted reference the targums and the septuagint when they took the time copy the text correctly that includes obvious corruptions now the septuagint differs from the masoretic text two particulars first includes additional texts and second some passages there are variant readings from the masoretic text addition fixing predating the various corrupted passages must emphasized that the best knowledge these variations are only signifcant bible scholars and have little theological import when they took the time copy the text correctly that does not exclude variant readings from the masoretic text which are little theological import the dead sea scroll materials add this ancient copy almost all isaiah and fragments various sizes almost all other books there also abundance other material but far know there sign there any hebrew antecdent the apocrypha the extra texts the septuagint far analysis has proceeded there are also variations between the dss texts and the masoretic versions these tend reflect the septuagint where the latter isn obviously error again though the differences thus far are not significant theologically there this big expectation that there are great theological surprises lurking the material but far this hasn happened the dss are important because there almost textual tradition the unlike for the hey you the expert jon
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics article ofp vpdinppwh andrew cmu edu nanci ann miller andrew cmu edu writes timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes there lies the hypocrisy dude atheism takes much faith theism admit besides not believing god means one doesn have deal with all the extra baggage that comes with this leaves person feeling wonderfully free especially after beaten over the head with for years agree that religion and belief often important psychological healer for many people and for that reason think important however trying force psychological fantasy don mean that bad way but that what really someone else who isn interested extremely rude what still believed santa claus and said that should noted that belief god itself more behavoral imperative than lack belief religion which causes the harm not the belief god dan
alt.atheism	faith and dogma article eov aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu bill ray writes todd kelley tgk toronto edu wrote faith and dogma are dangerous faith and dogma are inevitable christians merely understand and admit the fact give your proof that god exists that does whichever position you take you are forced faith does good say you take position for show interest the existence god assume does not exist stuff deleted many posters have said many posts lately this just not true for show interest the existence god takes faith all you make the presumption that the knowledge the possibility something enough require faith render that possibilty interest very different thing say that you don believe something than say that you don have sufficent reason believe something even interesting think about not either sometimes just something else more interesting that occupies your mind agree that faith and dogma are inevitable but not necessarily applied god and religion takes both faith and dogma expect the sun come every morning but there overwhelming reason every single day day and day out for everyone put his faith and dogma there not with the christian religion jim halat halat bear com bear stearns whatever doesn kill you will only serve annoy you nyc speak only for myself
alt.atheism	christian morality article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com dan schaertel wrote article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes yet still not believer god not concerned with disposition why beneath him provide with the evidence would require believe the evidence that personality given this god would find compelling the fact god could cause you believe anything wants you but think about for minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you because they wanted love you wouldn punish him with eternal torture didn love but then decent chap seems your god isn the responsibility you love god and take step toward him promises there for you but you have look for yourself looked and wasn another promise broken those who doubt this dispute have not givin sincere effort lying bastard how you know what effort have and have not given simple logic arguments are folly you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools those who tried trick him with logic our ability reason just spec creation yet some think the ultimate you rely simply your reason then you will never know more than you now learn you must accept that which you don know can anyone eaplain what just said here peter don forget sing they say there heaven for those who will wait some say better but say ain rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young
alt.atheism	you will all hell article cbnewsj att com decay cbnewsj att com dean kaflowitz wrote article portal videocart com dfuller portal videocart com dave fuller writes jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all hell for not believing god prepared for your eternal damnation what you mean prepared surrounded thumpers like yourself has proven hellish enough and not even dead yet well here how prepared got one those big beach umbrellas some those gel pack ice things big coleman cooler which loaded with miller draft like miller draft sue new pair new balance sneakers sony watchman and couple cartons bonton cheddar cheese popcorn haven decided what wear yet what does one wear eternal damnation dean kaflowitz dress casual only heaven there dress code black tie and self important expression don forget sing they say there heaven for those who will wait some say better but say ain rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes some here alt atheism think that condemning the actions some those who call themselves muslims they are condemning islam you read minds rice you know what posters think now not just what they write for myself only have what people are posting here and that what commenting think you may have misunderstood mean that one does not really criticize islam necessarily bringing khomeini etc into the argument for whether not following islam has determined examining his actions against islamic teachings islamic teachings are contained the qur and hadiths reported sayings and doings the prophet that funny thought you were making statement about what people think fact see quoted there jon
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes the way jon found reference claim that the percentage the population that suffers from depression has been increasing this century you requested will start new heading thread post under cool then can discuss the increase radio and use the increase the use fossil fuels the increase air travel and consumption processed bread and you can instruct which them causes increased depression jon
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism article qugin horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article qkogg fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes and that area what you care about whether someone sceptical critical and autonomous the one hand gullible excitable and easily led the other indeed may and one may atheist and also gullible excitable and easily led would say that tendency worship tyrants and ideologies indicates that person easily led whether they have worship belief supernatural hero rather than earthly one seems beside the point sure but whether not they are atheists what are discussing not whether they are easily led not you show that these hypothetical atheists are gullible excitable and easily led from some concrete cause that case would also have discuss that concrete cause rather than atheism was the factor that caused their subsequent behaviour jon
alt.atheism	faith and dogma marshall csugrad edu kevin marshall eba hsq csugrad edu wrote don necessarily disagree with your assertion but disagree with your reasoning faith bad dogma bad religion faith dogma religion bad bad religion bad unfortunately you never state why faith and dogma are dangerous faith and dogma are dangerous because they cause people act faith alone which its nature without justification that what mean the word faith belief without justification belief with arbitrary justification with emotional irrational justification for example when someone says that god exists that they don know why they believe god exists they can just feel that faith dogma bad because precludes positive change belief based new information increased mental faculty christians are totally irrational irrational with respect their religion only what are you saying one belief christian god does not make one totally irrational think know what you were getting but rather hear you expand the subject faith and dogma are irrational the faith and dogma part any religion are responsible for the irrationality the individuals claim that faith and dogma are the quintessential part any religion that makes the much overused this context buddism philosophy rather than religion can live with that science not religion because there faith nor dogma philosopher cannot christian because philosopher can change his mind whereas christian cannot due the nature faith and dogma present any religion again this statement too general christian perfectly capable being philosopher and absolutely capable changing his her mind faith god belief and all beliefs may change would you assert that atheists would make poor philosophers because they are predisposed not believe god which course may show unfair bias when studying say religion have you noticed that philosophers tend atheists philosopher not atheist tends called theologian christian tends consider christianity sacred christianity special set beliefs sanctioned god himself and therefore conceive changing those beliefs question the existence that being who makes mistakes faith comes into play dogma comes into play the lord works mysterious ways example faith being used reconcile evidence that the beliefs are flawed sure interpretations what god said are changed satisfy the needs society but when god says something that was said and that that since god said unflawed even the interpretations are flawed science would practiced atheists contrast has built defence against faith and dogma scientist holds sacred the idea that beliefs should change suit whatever the best information available the time and and and scientist understands that any current beliefs are deficient some way the goal keep improving the beliefs the goal keep changing the beliefs reflect the best information currently available that the only rational thing that good philosophy can you see the difference science views beliefs being flawed and new information can obtained improve them how many scientists would claim have complete and perfect understanding everything none would put them out job religion views its beliefs being perfect and the interpretations those beliefs must changed new information acquired which conflicts with them please explain how just because thinking kills people and please state more your answer than waco easier for someone kill person when doesn require good rational justification the killing don consider jewish was born jewish parents this document says jewish good rational justification the way wasn aware mass suicide was problem waco and jonestown were isolated incidents mass suicides are far from common clinton and the fbi would love for you convince them this would save the taxpayer lot money you could todd
alt.atheism	faith and dogma eov aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu bill ray wrote faith and dogma are inevitable christians merely understand and admit the fact give your proof that god exists that does whichever position you take you are forced faith does good say you take position for show interest the existence god assume does not exist consider special relativity hasn proved nor has been disproved one has proof one way the other but many people are interested satisfied myself that nothing could indicate absolutely the existence god one way the other the two possibilities are supernaturalism and naturalism course set circumstances can inconsistent with supernaturalism but similarly set circumstances can inconsistent with naturalism naturalism any phenomenon that could described god considered part the natural world studied any other natural phenomenon gravity for instance for example loud godlike voice vociferously announced god exist and will prove reversing the force gravity and then gravity did indeed reverse naturalist probably scientist would say boy sure didn understand gravity well thought did and that loud voice something new perhaps didn understand thunder well thought did either contend that proper implementation the christian faith requires reasoning but that reasoning cannot used throw out things you don like find uncomfortable hedonistic sexual behavior condemned the bible and act true reason will make any less condemned hatred murder gossip all these are condemned there god ordained murder the bible you bet and god ever orders kill you will but will first use the gideon like behavior verifying that god actually ordered the hit and will probably discuss abram like fashion sure glad you don know where live since you don seem realize impossible for you distinguish between voices your head and god voice can hear you now this how jim jones and david koresh justify their behavior delusional religious cults bear the same relationship christianity that rape bears consentual sex form but substance when the southern baptist church the methodist church begin this then you have reason blame mainstream religion for the behaviors these people should associate every negative behavior witness any non christian with you you seem have missed point even jim jones and david koresh were not religious people point remains that faith and dogma are dangerous and religion encourages them jim jones and david koresh also encouraged them point does not rely jim jones and david koresh being religious todd
alt.atheism	faith and dogma article eov aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu bill ray writes todd kelley tgk toronto edu wrote faith and dogma are dangerous faith and dogma are inevitable christians merely understand and admit the fact give your proof that god exists that does whichever position you take you are forced faith does good say you take position for show interest the existence god assume does not exist absolutely not true without religion either established one one you invent for yourself the theist and atheist are equally not interested god because without religious revelation there information about god available strip away the dogma and the theists atheists are different simply holding different opinion matter little practical importance contend that proper implementation the christian faith requires reasoning but that reasoning cannot used throw out things you don like find uncomfortable hedonistic sexual behavior condemned the bible and act true reason will make any less condemned hatred murder gossip all these are condemned there god ordained murder the bible you bet and god ever orders kill you will but will first use the gideon like behavior verifying that god actually ordered the hit and will probably discuss abram like fashion sorry but that doesn help what test will you apply decide whether god satan with whom you are speaking how will you know that you have not simply gone insane having delusions you are like loaded gun can hear you now this how jim jones and david koresh justify their behavior delusional religious cults bear the same relationship you not stupid assumed when the southern baptist church the methodist church begin this then you have reason blame mainstream religion for the behaviors these people should associate every negative behavior witness any non christian with you yes all this together each human making small part the definition humanity dan
alt.atheism	thoughts christians article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine wrote article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes know you can get any physical problems passive christianity unlike smoking not that hard avoid christianity today anyway just ignore right keith err kent whadda you mean you didn see the smiley ouch guess didn sorry but comment was just more irony into the fire cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	who has read rushdie the satanic verses article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine wrote article edm apr gocart twisto compaq com edm twisto compaq com mccreary writes while the topic books has anyone else noticed that paine the age reason hard find been wanting pick copy for while but not bad enough mail order noticed though that none the bookstores seem carry thought this was supposed classic what the deal too our local used book store the second largest the west coast and couldn find copy there guess atheists hold their bibles much esteem the theists remember correctly prometheus books have this one stock just call them and ask for the book cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	age reason was who has read rushdie this the story kent the archetype finn that lives the bay area and tried purchase thomas paine age reason this man was driving around staceys books inc well cleanlighted place daltons various other places when asked for this book the well educated american book store assistants most placed asked him check out the thriller section then they said that his book has not been published yet but they should receive the book soon some places the assistants bluntly said that they don know such author that not well known living author they don keep copies his books such the life and times america years after the revolution cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	some thoughts article rekj darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes james felder spbach lerc nasa gov wrote logic alert argument from incredulity just because hard for you believe this doesn mean that isn true liars can very pursuasive just look koresh that you yourself cite this whole basis great many here rejecting the christian account things the words madalyn murrey hair face folks just silly why okay disbelieve because your incredulity you admit that fallacy isn and wasn aware that this hair chick was reader that doesn support your assertion that the argument the whole basis great many here rejecting dan
alt.atheism	thoughts christians article rgkb darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote the social pressure indeed very important factor for the majority passive christians our world today the case early christianity the promise heavenly afterlife independent your social status was also very promising gift reason slaves and non romans accepted the religion very rapidly this hypothetical proposition you should say fact you should cite your sources all this the amateur sociologist sub branch however would suffice alert the unwary that you are just screwing around what would you accept sources this very thing has been written lots books you could start with erich fromm the dogma christ doug graham dgraham bnr opinions are own
alt.atheism	cruel was political atheists article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article apr bmerh bnr dgraham bmers bnr douglas graham writes according jerry mander the absence the sacred good book btw the great binding law the iroquois confederacy also played significant role model for the constitution furthermore apparently marx and engels were strongly influenced study iroquois society using the prime example successful classless egalitarian noncoercive society mander goes say that both the and the would well study the original document figure out where each went wrong and try get right next time that fascinating heard that the chinese rather than the italians invented pasta that fascinating take that you expressing skepticism the idea that those ignorant savages could have influenced the constitution the people who stole their continent you could right but sounds plausible there any reason that you dismiss out hand here some more recent scholarship has shown that the mid indians were not only invited participate the deliberations our founding fathers but that the great binding law the iroquois confederacy arguably became the single most important model for the albany plan union and later the articles confederation and the constitution that this would absent from our school texts and from history and from media not surprising given the devotion americans feel our founding myth great men gathered express new vision that has withstood the test time were revealed that indians had role imagine the blow the american psyche when most these men and others gathered creat the albany plan union the first try confederation they invited forty two members the iroquois grand council serve advisors confederate structures benjamin franklin freely acknowledged his interest the iroquois achievement famous speech albany congress would strange thing six nations ignorant savages sic should capable forming such union and able execute such manner that has subsisted for ages and appears indissoluble and yet that like union should impractical for ten dozen english colonies according grinde franklin convened meetings iroquois chiefs and congressional delegates order hammer out plan that acknowedged similar the iroquois confederacy grinde professor donald grinde the university california riverside whose book the iroquois and the founding fathers the american nation addresses this issue doug graham dgraham bnr opinions are own
alt.atheism	studies book mormon date tue apr gmt from carolyn jean fairman cfairman leland stanford edu agrino enkidu mic andres grino brandt asks about mormons there are some mention about events places historical persons later discovered archeologist one the more amusing things the bom claim that civilization existed north america aroun where the mystical plates were found not only did use steel and other metals but had lots wars very one has ever found any metal swords and traces civilization other than the native americans this just one example from free inquiry winter the following introduction the article joseph smith and the book mormon george smith the introduction written paul kurtz mormonism the church jesus christ latter day saints claims worldwide membership million one the world fastest growing religions with many new converst alone because the church aggressive missionary program covering more than one hundred countries spreading even third world countries mormonism both puritanical moral outlook and evangelical preachment the church run along strict authoritarian lines led president who allegedly receives revelations directly form god and group twelve apostles who attempt maintain orthodoxy belief and practice the church opposed abortion pornography sexual freedom women rights and other its view immoral influences secular society and forbids the use tobacco alcohol coffee and tea centered salt lake city the church extremely wealthy and politically powerful utal and many other western states among well know present day mormons are ezra taft benson former secretary agriculture the osmond family the mariotts the hotel empire and score high placed government officials the mormon church was founded western new york joseph smith who claimed that divine revelation had found gold plates containing hieroglyphics buried hill and that with the help visits from the angel moroni had been able translate the writing into the book mormon the basis mormon belief this book written the commandment god claims that the ancient hebrews settled america about and were the ancestors the american indians mormons believe that those who have been baptized the true church will reunited after death and that deceased non mormon family members can baptized proxy and thus join their relatives the hereafter because these beliefs mormons have been considered outcasts mainline christian denominations and heretics religious fundamentalists joseph smith was controversial figure his day was both worshiped saint and denounced fraud because persecution led his band loyal followers from palmyra new york westward ohio and then illinois where was shot death agry mob brigham young who reportedly had many eighty wives took over the leadership the church and led the mormons further westward found the new zion salt lake city following the teachings joseph smith the practice polygamy was perhaps the mormons most controversial practice nineteenth century america while other religions back many centuries muhammadanism years christianity and judaism and attempts examine their beginnings are difficult extensive historical investigation mormon roots possible some mormons are willing examine this history objectively others maintain that such scrutiny dangerous the faith the following pages free inquiry presents two articles about the mormon church first george smith lifelong member the church provides detailed critical examination joseph smith and his claim the the book mormon was divinely revealed second present portion interview with philosopher sterling mcmurrin also mormon since birth who questions the treatment the history the church mormon authorities paul kurtz the article itself super jimtims psilink com
alt.atheism	christian morality article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes simple logic arguments are folly you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools those who tried trick him with logic why don you cite the passages that can focus some discuss then following jesus you can make fools and our logic you rely simply your reason then you will never know more than you now indeed you can justifiably make this assertion you must genius logic and making fools should that much easier qpliu princeton edu standard opinion opinions are delta correlated
alt.atheism	logic jesus dps nasa kodak com pontificated simple logic arguments are folly you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools those who tried trick him with logic can you cite example this please post answer don want receive mail james green jgreen oboe calpoly edu all times and all nations the priest has been hostile liberty thomas jefferson
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women kmr cwru edu keith ryan pontificated how many moslem men does take rape woman five one commit the act and four witness the penetration guilty verdict can rendered only there confession there are least two male witnesses the crime adultery and rape are proved only four witnesses have seen the actual penetration occurrence that presumably does not happen often this from the quran however spelled james green jgreen oboe calpoly edu all times and all nations the priest has been hostile liberty thomas jefferson
alt.atheism	help you god court heard that california they ask you swear without any mention god what states actually include god the courtroom oath james green jgreen oboe calpoly edu all times and all nations the priest has been hostile liberty thomas jefferson
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article apr abo mandtbacka finabo abo mats andtbacka writes fpv horus mchp sni frank uucp writes article apr abo mandtbacka finabo abo mats andtbacka writes that old chestnut your claim that moral objectivism scientific objectivism don agree with now try proving through some objective moral test that disagreeing incorrect your claim which you have deleted now was not universal not objective deleted now the interest brevity back step and you see was still your post yes that was claim you can refute then please firstly apology you hadn deleted your claim and was mistaken saying you had sorry for any offence caused secondly how can refute your definition can only point its logical implications and say that they seem contradict the usage the word objective other areas indeed your definition objective oxymoron for all have quibble with that belief other than that useless and that objective perfectly good word what objective not the age the universe anyway show above how many ages can the universe have and still internally self consistent amazed was more than one how many different moral systems can different members society have indeed single individuals some cases and humanity still stick together begging the question people can have many opinions about the age the universe and humanity can still stick together you are saying that the universe has real age independent beliefs about why the age the universe like most scientific facts can emirically verified through means that give the same result matter who performs the testing albeit there are error bars that may the largish side this assumes that the universe has real age any kind reality which doesn depend what think why should extreme biblical creationist give rat ass about the means which you speak heard way verify morality consistent way much less compute the errors the measurement care enlighten the same true pain but painkillers exist and can predicted work with some accuracy better than random guess wrote elsewhere that morality should hypotheses about observed value moral system makes prediction will better that can tested and falsifiable the same way prediction this drug will relieve pain people ideas about the age object are not objective you can have any idea you like and can stop you universae and their ages another ballgame they are what they are and you dislike some detail them that problem with your opinion them sure assume objective reality and you get statements like this claim that morality opinion ours and such subjective and individual wrong then some more less objectively real thing exists which you label objective morality can you back this positive claim existence can you back your positive claim above that because assumption make the same assumption about values the basis that there logical difference between the two and the empirical basis the two precisely the same point morals are essence personal opinions usually ideally well founded motivated such but nonetheless personal the fact that real large lot people agree some moral question sometimes even for the same reason does not make morals objective makes humans somewhat alike their opinions that moral question which can good for the evolution social species and real large lot nice phrase people agree that there football desk supposed see logical difference between the two perhaps you can explain the difference since you seem see clearly take look the desk perform test football then accept theory else tell people they hallucinating now take look morality see anything please inform which way look and why look that particular way opposed some other get drift just look are you claiming never know what good means science whole other matter altogether says you prove that those who disagree are wrong that simple matter proving the track record the scientific method think great and should applied values may completely wrong but that what conclude result quite amount thought frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	some thoughts article reyf darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine wrote someone spank wrong but didn lord liar lunatic originate with lewis who this campollo fellow anyway think and isn there clear connection with the believe because absurd notion one the original christians origen there similar statement attributed anselm believe that may understand both cases reason somewhat less exalted than anyone posting here could accept which means that neither statement can properly analysed this venue bill think you have misunderstanding about atheism lack belief god does not directly imply lack understanding transcendental values hope you would accept the fact that for instance buddhists appreciate issues related non empirical reasoning without the need automatically believe theism think reading couple books related buddhism might revise and fine tune your understanding non christian systems cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	christian morality article pww spac rice edu pww spacsun rice edu peter simple logic arguments are folly you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools those who tried trick him with logic our ability reason just spec creation yet some think the ultimate you rely simply your reason then you will never know more than you now learn you must accept that which you don know can anyone eaplain what just said here can seems jesus used logic make people using logic look like fools that does not sound right maybe just told they were fools and that and people believed that hmm does not sound reasonable either find always very intriguing see people stating that transcendental values can explained and then the next sentence they try explain these unexplained values highly strange cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	thoughts christians article rgkb darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote the social pressure indeed very important factor for the majority passive christians our world today the case early christianity the promise heavenly afterlife independent your social status was also very promising gift reason slaves and non romans accepted the religion very rapidly this hypothetical proposition you should say fact you should cite your sources all this the amateur sociologist sub branch however would suffice alert the unwary that you are just screwing around well remember jacoby mythmaker talks about this cite one source but not sure all christians have read this book addition social experiences from being raised and educated lutheran having lot christian friends and even have played two christian rock bands over you you have any counter claims sources rest that shows that christianity does not have the concept social promise that independent the social status cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote credit religion with the awesome power dominate history misunderstand human nature the function religion and course history believe that those who distort history this way know exaclty what they doing and only for affect however underestimate the power religion creating historical events also big misunderstanding for instance would the year old war have ever started there were fractions between the protestants and the vatican cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	death penalty was political atheists article rlyz darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote this fascinating atheists argue for abortion defend homosexuality means population control insist that the only values are biological and condemn war and capital punishment according benedikt something contardictory cannot exist which this case means atheists suppose would like understand how atheist can object war excellent means controlling population growth capital punishment sorry but the logic escapes and why just capital punishment what being questioned here the propriety killing punishment what the basis the ecomplaint bill ever heard secular humanism please check out what this stands for and then revise your statements above cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article qugin horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article qkogg fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes and that area what you care about whether someone sceptical critical and autonomous the one hand gullible excitable and easily led the other indeed may and one may atheist and also gullible excitable and easily led would say that tendency worship tyrants and ideologies indicates that person easily led whether they have worship belief supernatural hero rather than earthly one seems beside the point sure but whether not they are atheists what are discussing not whether they are easily led not you show that these hypothetical atheists are gullible excitable and easily led from some concrete cause that case would also have discuss that concrete cause rather than atheism was the factor that caused their subsequent behaviour not arguing that atheism causes such behaviour merely that not relevant the definition atheism which lack belief gods frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	islamic genocide article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article qkovl fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes false dichotomy you claimed the killing were not religiously motivated and saying that wrong not saying that each and every killing religiously motivate spelled out detail which killings you say are religously motivated for example would claim that the recent assassination four catholic construction workers who had connection with the ira was probably religously motivated the time writing think that someone who claims the current violence motivated religion reaching what would you call when someone writes the killings are not religously motivated say was motivated primitive notion revenge and misguided patriotism otherwise have wonder how come mainland catholics are not killed mainland protestants and southern catholics are not killed southern protestants and take away all plausible causes bar religion and the violence diminishes markedly gee why that now possible argue that religion the past major contributing factor the violence the present but don know any evidence that this and not enough historian debate given that the avowed aim the ira take northern ireland into country that has particular church written into its constitution and which has restriction civil rights dictated that church fail see why the word past appropriate the country also has different official language written its constitution and vice versa maybe they motivated love irish poetry your argument fallacious jon for what worth agree with all that you say about ireland above and more frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	islam and scientific predictions was genocide caused atheism article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes deletion god the one who created the night the day the sun and the moon each travelling orbit with its own motion qur the positive aspect this verse noted maurice bucaille that while geocentrism was the commonly accepted notion the time and for long time afterwards there notion geocentrism this verse anywhere the qur well that certainly different but looks there translation found for everything the way most surprised hear that night and day move orbit and that the sun travels orbit without saying that earth does too sounds geocentric benedikt
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article inr lvi horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes deletion and real large lot nice phrase people agree that there football desk supposed see logical difference between the two perhaps you can explain the difference since you seem see clearly rest deleted that fallacy and not the first time pointed out not fallacy note the supermajority disinterested people agree fundamantal value not doing ethics yet benedikt then what the difference between that and those people agreeing trivial observation the reference not yet being ethics dubious you have used the terms absolute objective and others interchangeably same with moral values values all worth measuers and usefulness you infer from them they were the same the when the not fulfilled your intermission waste time assuming that you don intend this reasonable conclude that you want argue point you have made interesting statement here namely that the disinterested observer there such thing morals probably the shortest proof for objective and morality being contradiction for one you have never given set morals people agree upon unlike football further you conveniently ignore here that there are many who would not agree tghe morality something the analogy does not hold have however given example value people agree and explained why people will agree that their freedom valuable have also stated that such value necessary condition for doing objective ethics the assertion above and that what talking about there isn point talking about ethics this can agreed fine and that freedom valuable not generally agreed upon could name quite lot people who state the opposite not that that wasn mentioned before other words you have nothing fulfill your strong claims with one can expect sufficiently many people agree its being football while you have give the evidence that only vanishing number disagrees with set morals you have give not doing morals ethics can get past values say the only cogent objection freedom example that maybe people aren talking about the same thing when they answer that valuable maybe not and want think about this some especially the implications its being true clutching straw don believe mappings into metaphysical sets were loaded terms are fixpoints those who deny the morality freedom make quite clear what they say their practice telling yes there are even those who are willingly unfree quite common religions the way for one there religion which named submission don even try argue that submission freedom further the above evidence not proof proof would evolve out testing your theory absolute morals against competing theories garbage that not proof either were would argue case but afraid that that considered proof the above one the arguments you reiterate while you never answer the objections evidence that you are preacher name that fallacy there something universally valued moral context benedikt
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law qla afp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes article jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes hope islamic bank something other than bcci which ripped off many small depositors among the muslim community the and elsewhere deletions bbci was example islamically owned and operated bank what will someone bet they weren real islamic owners and operators and yet actually turned out long running and quite ruthless operation steal money from small and often quite naive depositors islamic bank something which operates different fashion your modern bank have explained here another thread before for example islamic banks don pay fixed interests deposits but return investments which varies according the market and not fixed like interest islamic banks are relatively new phenomenon the islamic world there are islamic banks the west including the usa knowledge doubt the market for them exists there least not while islamic banks are relatively early stage their development the case now bcci most certainly not islamic bank did bcci ever pay fixed interest rate deposits the answer this question yes then bcci was not islamic bank islamic banks are specifically set not pay charge interest whether some muslims partially owned the bank whatever completely irrelevant fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	death penalty gulf war long this the most unmitigated bilge seen while jim brown obviously has possession the right wing token diplomatic alternatives including sanctions were ineffective december former national security adviser zbigniew brzezinski told senate committee that sanctions were costing iraq million per day and that the multinational coalition could take all the time the world iraq suggested was losing badly every day defied the demands while the community nations won every day with taking life loss life fcnl washington newsletter the world full evil and circumstances are not perfect many innocents suffer due the wrongful actions others regretable but that the way wrongful actions murderers like leaders the government perhaps regrettable course the way certainly not the media not totally monolithic there are even conservative sources out there you know where look hurrah for rush good heavens escapee from rush limbot land conservative ass and btw the reason brought the blanket bombing germany was because you were bemoaning the iraqi civilian casualties being deplorable yet blanket bombing was instituted because bombing wasn accurate enough hit industrial military targets decisive way any other method that time but the gulf war precision bombing was the norm bullshit the gulf massacre all ordnance used was smart the rest that was just regular dumb iron bombs and stuff have you forgotten that the pentagon definition successful patriot launch was when the missile cleared the launching tube with damage that successful interception scud was defined the patriot and scud passed each other the same area the sky and the that was the smart stuff hit again try follow here that means this smart arsenal missed the stories hundreds thousands iraqi civilian dead just plain bunk prove have source that says that date the civilian death count excuse mean collateral damage about one has attempted calculate the costs execution washington state but studies elsewhere suggest costs far more than incarceration california spending more than million annually capital cases and until this year hadn executed anyone since texas the national leader the number executions spends estimated million per execution that compares average cost incarceration washington state per maximum security prisoner per year shamim mohamed uunet noao cmcl arizona shamim shamim arizona edu take this cross and garlic here mezuzah jewish page the koran muslim and zen buddhist you your own member the league for programming freedom write lpf uunet net
alt.atheism	gulf war was death penalty was political atheists article rusnews mantis mathew mathew mantis writes mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes looked back this and asked some questions various people and got the following information which had claimed and you pooh poohed the has not sold iraq any arms what about the land mines which have already been mentioned asked around one the areas you suggested yourself and presented the information got mention landmines was given other countries like kuwait information hard prove you are claiming that the sold information prove information hard prove almost certainly the did sell information then that fact classified and you can prove very neat dismiss everything say unless can prove beyond shadow doubt something which you yourself admit can never prove your satisfaction thanks stick squaring circles mathew okay you are going blindly believe things without reasonable evidence didn realize you were theist doubting claim presented without any evidence support you are able present real evidence for then great but unsupported claims even claims such and such news agency will not accepted you want stick the sheer impossible instead the merely difficult then fine the statement that such fact classified then you can prove simple matter pragmatics and the law you have access classified information that you know classified and you reveal there good chance that you someone else the person who revealed you going jail never said that you couldn prove satisfaction merely said that was difficult who said try and make things easy for people arguing with unless course they need the handicap mccullou whipple wisc edu never program and drink beer the same time doesn work
alt.atheism	gulf war and peace niks article lva fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article apr bmerh bnr dgraham bmers bnr douglas graham writes wait minute doug know you are better informed than that the has never invaded nicaragua far know the invaded nicaragua several times this century including october andf again february haiti was occupied thanks jon had forgotten about the and invasions had ever learned them mean really forgot but read the context more recent such when the sandinistas were expecting imminent invasion from the which never happened stand corrected thanks panama invaded true twice this century the created panama the first place fomenting and then intervening civil war the then republic colombia troops landed colombia help with the uprising and then colombia was duly dismembered and replaced two countries order that the could build the panama canal the new republic panama remembered this one this one and bush invasion were the two mentioned above good teddy knew how get things done jon regards jim
alt.atheism	christian morality article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes article ousrvr oulu kempmp phoenix oulu petri pihko writes dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote what does this mean learn you must accept that you don know something right but learn you must accept something don know why this not the way prefer learn unwise merely swallow everything you read suppose write book telling how the great invisible pink unicorn has helped daily problems would you accept this since you can know whether true not one asks you swallow everything fact jesus warns against but let ask you question you beleive what you learn history class for that matter anything school mean just what other people have told you and you don want swallow what others say right right there way get into sceptical heart you can not say you have given sincere effort with the attitude you seem have you must trust not just church and participate activities were you ever willing die for what you believed the branch dividians were they believed and trusted much that became impossible turn back reality what you are advocating total irreversible brainwashing dan
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism article hqd horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article qugin horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article qkogg fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes and that area what you care about whether someone sceptical critical and autonomous the one hand gullible excitable and easily led the other indeed may and one may atheist and also gullible excitable and easily led would say that tendency worship tyrants and ideologies indicates that person easily led whether they have worship belief supernatural hero rather than earthly one seems beside the point sure but whether not they are atheists what are discussing not whether they are easily led not you show that these hypothetical atheists are gullible excitable and easily led from some concrete cause that case would also have discuss that concrete cause rather than atheism was the factor that caused their subsequent behaviour not arguing that atheism causes such behaviour merely that not relevant the definition atheism which lack belief gods throw away the faq can all just ask dwyer since can define the thing that the rest only talk about jon
alt.atheism	gulf war selling arms article rusnews mantis mathew mathew mantis writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes mathew agree this seems the crux your whole position isn that the shouldn have supported hussein and sold him arms fight iran agree and agree ruthlessly hunting down those who did but did sell arms hussein and done deal now invades kuwait just sit back and say well sold him all those arms suppose just wants use them now too bad for kuwait unfortunately sitting back and letting things not the way correct former mistake destroying hussein military potential did was the right move but agree with your statement reagan and bush made grave error judgment sell arms hussein but still happening that the entire point only last month john major hailed great victory that had personally secured sale arms saudi arabia the same month sold jet fighters the same indonesian government that busy killing the east timorese heard about the arms sale saudi arabia now how such grave mistake sell saudi arabia weapons are you claiming that shouldn sell any weapons other countries straightforward answer please all very well say oops made boo boo better clean the mistake but the and keep making the same mistake they often that can believe not deliberate this suspicion reinforced the fact that the mistake extremely profitable one for decrepit economy reliant arms sales who benefits from arms sales hint isn normally the gov the contractor that builds that piece equipment believe not the and don export the huge quantities arms that you have just accused them doing arms exports are rare enough that requires act congress for non small arms most countries not all you believe telling everyone who can what and who can sell their goods whom mathew mccullou whipple wisc edu never program and drink beer the same time doesn work
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice wrote stuff deleted now not believe blindly following anyone matter how knowledgeable she may islamic law someone tells islam says such and such immediately say show the support for this statement from the qur and sunnah believe this islamic duty for according one hadith the prophet peace and blessings god with him your leader tells you enter fire and you and kill yourself then you have sinned for doing wrong even though you were blindly following the instructions your leader responsible for own actions not abu hanifa imam malik etc even blindly following the opinions abu hanifa etc with this mind understanding must look the reasoning behind such opinions muslims that support khomeini fatwa now understanding the hadith upon which those who support khomeini fatwa relating particular instance that occurred during war time now brother general imho ridiculous and wrong say that hadith relating the actions war usable during times peace think any sensible human being can see this personally think that the reasoning some our ulema this matter faulty for they think legitimate use acts war times peace regarding this particular subject you think wrong please feel free say with your reasoning from qur and hadith please not because somebody said want the reasoning from qur and the sahih hadiths perhaps should take our discussion soc religion islam please email rashid you think should this the way also disagree with your opinion regarding the punishment for apostasy the viewpoint follow that there general punishment for apostasy very strongly supported qur and hadith this very well shown the book punishment islamic law mohamed awa american trust publications reiterate that would agree with you that there little justification for the punishment apostasy the qur islamic history well apostasy has rarely been punished belief considered matter conscience and since there compulsion the matter belief apostates have been generally left believe not believe they will however when apostate makes attacks upon god and his messenger the situation changes now the charge apostasy may complicated with other charges perhaps charges sedition treason spying etc the person makes public issue their apostasy mounts public attacks opposed arguement against islam the situation likewise complicated the person spreads slander broadcasts falsehoods again the situation changes the punishments vary according the situation the apostate anyhow the charge aggravated apostasy would only subsidiary charge rushdie case there distinction the qur between formal war situation and being the situation where someone unilaterally wages war their actions creates disorder makes mischief etc against the muslims and creates situation that results harm muslims here small group even single individual could said engaged such practise other words there clear difference between formal war situation where two clearly defined parties wage war conclude treaties exchange prisoners etc and dealing with attacks that come from isolated individuals groups against islam the second situation the unilateral attack and the spreading fasad that would apply the case rushdie the matter rushdie not simple matter banning offensive book banning the book secondary full set circumstances following the publication the book come into play well including the deaths many muslims and rushdie and his publishers media games now not believe blindly following anyone matter how knowledgeable she may islamic law someone tells islam says such and such immediately say show the support for this statement from the qur and sunnah believe this islamic duty for according one hadith the prophet peace and blessings god with him your leader tells you enter fire and you and kill yourself then you have sinned for doing wrong even though you were blindly following the instructions your leader responsible for own actions not abu hanifa imam malik etc even blindly following the opinions abu hanifa etc now understanding the hadith upon which those who support khomeini fatwa relating particular instance that occurred during war time now brother general imho ridiculous and wrong say that hadith relating the actions war usable during times peace think any sensible human being can see this personally think that the reasoning some our ulema this matter faulty for they think legitimate use acts war times peace regarding this particular subject not sure which hadith you are referring above believe that one the qur anic verses which the fatwa based every verse the qur has corresponding circumstance revelation but way the understanding the tafsir the verse restricted solely the particular historical circumstance which was revealed this was the case then could say that all the laws and regulations that were revealed when the muslims were not involved conflict should suspended when they were war the logic does not follow complex real life situations there may many verses and many hadiths which can all related single complicated situation the internal relationships between these verses may quite complex such that arriving understanding how the verses interlock and how each applies the particular situation can quite demanding task not necessarily simple this that process there may many parameters involved there may larger context which particular situation should viewed all these matters impinge the situation other words there great deal involved deciphering the qur the qur asks reflect its verses but this reflection must entail more than simply reading verse and its corresponding hadith the reflection for the sake increasing personal piety then each person has his own level understanding and there harm that however the reflection order decide matters that pertain the state the gestation laws and rulings the gestation society the dispensing justice the guidance the community then there are certain minimum requirements understanding that one should achieve jaffar ibn muhammad sadiq relates some these requirements taught the prophet hadith who does not distinguish the book allah the abrogating verse from the abrogated one and specific one from general one and decisive from ambiguous and does not differentiate between permission and obligation and does not recognize verse meccan period from medinite one and does not know the circumstances revelation and does not understand the technical words the qur whether simple compound and does not comprehend the knowledge decree and measure and ignorant advancing and delaying its verses and does not distinguish the clear from the deep nor the manifest from the esoteric nor the beginning from the termination and unaware the question and the answer the disjoining and the joining and the exceptions and the all inclusive and ignorant adjective preceding noun that explains the subsequent one and unaware the emphasized subject and the detailed one the obligatory laws and the permissions the places the duties and rules and the meaning the lawful and the unlawful and does not know the joined words and the words that are related those coming before them after them then such man does not know the qur nor among the people the qur based these and other hadiths and accordance with many qur anic verses why should not company from every group remain behind gain profound understanding tafaqquh religion and warn people when they return them that they may beware science jurisprudence arose the requirements for person considered mujtahid one who can pronounce matters law and religion are many listed few major divisions below there are course many subdivisions within these headings knowledge arabic syntax conjugation roots semantics oratory knowledge tafsir and principles tafsir logic mantiq knowledge hadiths knowledge transmitters rijal knowledge the principles juriprudence qur sunnah consensus reasoning the study qur and sunnah for purposes law involves discussion imperatives awamir discussion negative imperatives nawahi discussion generalities and particularities aam khas discussion unconditional and conditional discussion tacit meanings discussion the abstract and the clear discussion the abrogator and the abrogated the principles application the law involves principles exemption principles precaution principles option principles mastery the jurisprudent bound through very rigorous process pronouncing judgement given situation not matter looking one verse and one hadith now one should blindly follow anyone but there difference between blind following and acceding the opinion someone who clearly more knowledgeable and more qualified than oneself there the famous hadith the prophet which says the fuqaha religious scholars are the trustees the prophet long they not concern themselves with the illicit desires pleasures and wealth this world the prophet was asked messenger god how may know they concern themselves replied seeing whether they follow the ruling power they that fear for your religion and shun them not yet know enough about the imams the four sunni madhabs comment how this hadith applies them the contemporary scholars who base themselves upon them the prophet also refered the fuqaha the fortress islam only point make clear that arriving legal judgement calls into play certain amount expertise the specifics this expertise delineated the qur and hadith those who acquire this expertise are praised both the qur and hadith those who without the requisite knowledge pronounce matters that affect society state and religion are cautioned the only reason said anything all about the rushdie affair this group because the whole basis for the discussion the fatwa that apostasy was wrong when one discusses something they should least base their discussion fact secondly khomeini was condemned heretic because supposedly claimed infallible another instance creating straw man and then beating him perhaps should take our discussion soc religion islam please email rashid you think should this agree that should move the discussion another newsgroup unfortunately not have any access email private discussion moderated group out the question cannot post moderated group like soc religion islam how about soc culture arabic talk religion misc salaam laikum
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger wrote have already made the clear claim that khomeini advocates views which are contradition with the qur and have given arguments for this this something that can checked anyone sufficiently interested khomeini being dead really can respond but another poster who supports khomeini has responded with what clearly obfuscationist sophistry this should quite clear atheists they are less susceptible religionist modes obfuscationism don mind saying this but the best example obfuscation condemn without having even your most basic facts straight you want some examples back and look your previous posts where you manage get your facts wrong about the fatwa and khomeini supposed infallibility salaam laikum
alt.atheism	consciousness part kev strikes back kevin anthoney kax nott wrote about reply diplomatic society that constantly the verge flaming usenet diplomacy the best way ensure the voice reason gets through isn realize fighting occam razor this argument try explain why feel mind necessary kevin unfortunately you are now delving into field know too little about algorithms your reasoning see very much along the lines roger penrose who claimed that mathematical insight cannot algorithmic his book the emperor new mind concerning computers minds and the laws physics however penrose claim that has mathematical insight your similar claim that wavefunctions collapse only when consciously take look could just illusions are obviouslu taking very different viewpoints try ponder the problem consciousness from evolutionary perspective realising that might not anything special but certainly useful thinking back what wrote you think worms have minds not they are able experience pain least they behave just like that yet conceivable that might some day the future perform total synthesis elegans from the elements would such worm have mind firstly not impressed with the ability algorithms they great solving problems once the method has been worked out but not working out the method itself this true some extent however not think that our brains work like computers all fact there substantial evidence skarda skarda freeman that brains work more less chaotically generating enough randomness for mental states evolve our brains work much like genetic algorithm generators suppose the trick still has there some form discovered does this mean that all the ideas will ever have are already pre programmed into our brains this somewhat unlikely given that our brains ultimately are encoded chromosomes worth genetic material much which isn used indeed this extremely unlikely given the vast impact nurture our mind and brain suggest however that before trying understand our consciousness collection algorithms kevin take look the references mentioned and think again still think the best experts the nature conscious mind are neurologists neuropsychologists and biologists but not flame for opinions since they study beings that are conscious the reason repeating advice that this discussion cannot lead anywhere our backgrounds are too different and please not bring into this discussion all not all physicists are happy with the claim that our consciousness plays some special role physics would say doesn the other problem with algorithms their instability not many algorithms survive you take out large portion their code yet people survive strokes without going completely haywire there are side effects but patients still seem remarkably stable also neurons perfectly healthy people are dying alarming rate can algorithm survive randomly corrupt various bits code again brains are not computers don forget this this does not mean they need something else work they just work differently their primary purpose perception and guidance action self awareness and high intelligence are later appearances the next problem the sticky question what colour replace colour with the sensation your choice presumably the materialist viewpoint that the product some kind chemical reaction the usual products such reaction are energy different chemicals colour mixture these you are still expecting that could find the idea green our brains somewhere perhaps the form some chemical this not how see the sensation green certain time dependent pattern the area our visual cortex and distributed with the help areas and the rest the brain indeed firing pattern have sometimes thought our consciousness global free induction pattern these local firing patterns but this just idle speculation scientific american september issue was special issue mind and brain have you already read from cover cover there are two articles visual perception you might interested but again please note that subjective experiences cannot observed from third person perspective see nothing but neuronal activity cannot conclude that this not the mind kalat writes about numerous examples where electric stimulation different areas brain have led various changes the patients state mind for instance patient whose septal area was stimulated without his knowledge remote control during psychiatric interview was quickly cured his depression and started discussing plan seduce his girlfriend stimulations the temporal lobe have sometimes led embarrassing situations when the patients have started flirting with the therapist conclusion there evidence that brains are essentially necessary for subjective experiences brain damage usually equivalent some sort mind damage conscious processes involve substantial brain activity various areas brain when think colours our visual cortex activated etc consciousness afterthought become conscious our actions with half second delay and our brains are ahead our conscious will least thus think fruitful turn the question why see colours around and ask what this that seems observing since seems that our conscious mind not the king our brains this computer won see colour because the chemistry different does algorithm that sees colour have selective advantage over equivalent that doesn shouldn because the outputs each algorithm ought the same equivalent circumstances why see colour this depends what meant seeing colours does neural network that capable recognising handwritten numbers from see the numbers capable sorting them you are asking why does animal who conscious itself observer have evolutionary advantage over animal who doesn have good answer read previous posting where wrote why sense identity helps social animals swap roles and act more morally that they don unconsciously kill each other with newly discovered weapons bit extreme but this the basic idea when early homo became more and more efficient using tools sense identity and the concept self had evolve line with this development indeed respect for others and conscious altruistic behaviour might evolutionary advantages for social animals such early humans remember correctly quantum mechanics consists wavefunction with two processes acting the first process has been called unitary evolution governed schroedinger equation and well known the second process called various things such collapse the wavefunction state vector reduction and more mysterious usually said occur when measurement takes place although nobody seems know precisely when that occurs when does occur the effect abruptly change the wavefunction minds are required for this does this mean that until human minds came the scene wavefunctions never collapsed but remained the superpositions for aeons how powerful are this has been discussed before and think this topic irrelevant since not agree that minds are necessary and neither physicists anyway speculating that minds would part there seems some link between consciousness and that never see linear superpositions anything although there are alternative explainations for this idea how brain supposed access part but since this only speculation that won matter too much main point that there might place for minds physics agree but not the sense you apparently mean above physics needs sharp minds solve many real problems back nice padded cell now that with you you don forget take with you the references wrote about previous posting plus the following kalat james biological psychology wadsworth publishing company belmont skarda explaining behavior bringing the brain back inquiry skarda freeman how brains make chaos order make sense the world behavioral and brain sciences petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics the truth pihatie finou oulu physics the rule oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu chemistry the game
alt.atheism	consciousness part kev strikes back scott sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu wrote apr nott kevin anthony kax nott writes firstly not impressed with the ability algorithms they great solving problems once the method has been worked out but not working out the method itself crossword example deleted have you heard neural networks read little about them and they seems overcome most your objections sure there are many people who work with neural networks and read this newsgroup please tell kevin what you achieved and what you expect not saying that nns will solve all such problems but think they show that not hard you think come with mechanical models consciousness indeed think dualism non solution dennett recently put dead horse petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics the truth pihatie finou oulu physics the rule oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu chemistry the game
alt.atheism	consciousness part kev strikes back article apr ousrvr oulu kempmp phoenix oulu petri pihko writes kevin anthoney kax nott wrote this post probably either brilliant insane let know which brilliant example using the introspective objection against materialist theories consciousness diplomatic realize fighting occam razor this argument try explain why feel mind necessary firstly not impressed with the ability algorithms they great solving problems once the method has been worked out but not working out the method itself specific example like solve numerical crosswords not the simple the sums and insert the answers type the hard ones these with any efficiency you need figure out variety tricks now know that you can program computer these puzzles but doing you have work out the tricks yourself and program them into the computer you can course obfuscate the trick and write the program that uncovered but far can see the trick still has there some form discovered does this mean that all the ideas will ever have are already pre programmed into our brains this somewhat unlikely given that our brains ultimately are encoded chromosomes worth genetic material much which isn used one way around this bring the environment into the equation but again far can see this still has air you see object then perform action and don seem get anywhere the algorithm has anticipate what might see and what conclusions draw from experience the other problem with algorithms their instability not many algorithms survive you take out large portion their code yet people survive strokes without going completely haywire there are side effects but patients still seem remarkably stable also neurons perfectly healthy people are dying alarming rate can algorithm survive randomly corrupt various bits code the next problem the sticky question what colour replace colour with the sensation your choice presumably the materialist viewpoint that the product some kind chemical reaction the usual products such reaction are energy different chemicals colour mixture these this computer won see colour because the chemistry different does algorithm that sees colour have selective advantage over equivalent that doesn shouldn because the outputs each algorithm ought the same equivalent circumstances why see colour however such view actually nonsolution how should minds able act observers feel pain and pleasure and issue commands any better than the brain moreover how the interactions occur bit idle speculation remember correctly quantum mechanics consists wavefunction with two processes acting the first process has been called unitary evolution governed schroedinger equation and well known the second process called various things such collapse the wavefunction state vector reduction and more mysterious usually said occur when measurement takes place although nobody seems know precisely when that occurs when does occur the effect abruptly change the wavefunction envisage interaction between the wavefunction and something else which shall imaginitively call part seems reasonable assume that something causes although that something might the wavefunction itself which case part simply the wavefunction note though that need more than explain anyway speculating that minds would part there seems some link between consciousness and that never see linear superpositions anything although there are alternative explainations for this idea how brain supposed access part but since this only speculation that won matter too much main point that there might place for minds physics back nice padded cell now that with you petri kevin anthoney kax nott don believe anything you read sig files
alt.atheism	christian morality article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com dan schaertel wrote the life death and resurection christ documented historical fact not any standard history seen care back this sans the lies apologists are fond however all the major events the life jesus christ were fortold hundreds years before him neat trick not really most the prophesies aren even prophesies they prayers and comments taken from the torah quite out context seems xians started lying right from the beginning there way get into sceptical heart you can not say you have given sincere effort with the attitude you seem have arrogant ass aren you must trust not just church and participate activities you wrong think haven the trust was something that doesn exist were you ever willing die for what you believed still willing die for what believe and don believe were the loonies waco what besides the point not die for what one believes the point make that other sorry son bitch die for what believes doesn anyone else here get tired these cretins tirades peter the damed and damned proud don forget sing they say there heaven for those who will wait some say better but say ain rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young
alt.atheism	cults religions article bfe aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu bill ray wrote james thomas green jgreen trumpet calpoly edu wrote conclusion can shown that there essentially logical argument which clearly differentiates cult from religion challenge anyone produce distinction which clear and can easily knocked down how about this one religion cult which has stood the test time religion cult that got opted people who are better compartmentalizing their irrationality peter don forget sing they say there heaven for those who will wait some say better but say ain rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young
alt.atheism	gulf war and peace niks article rusnews mantis mathew mathew mantis writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes the problem with most peace niks they consider those who are not like them bad and unconscionable would not have any argument problem with peace nik they held their ideals and stayed out all conflicts issues especially those dealing with the national defense but they are not willing allow legitimately hold different point view they militate and many times resort violence all the name peace yawn another right wing wasp imagining oppressed minority perhaps camille paglia right after all personal attacks would not have any argument problem with peace nik they stayed out all conflicts issues bet you wouldn you love deliberate misinterpretation persons statement cutting out the part the statement tries blunt the thrust the sentence never addresses the issue extreemist peace people not holding true their ideals but what makes you think that sitting back saying nothing about defense issues and letting people like you make all the decisions anything with their ideals ignoring the challenge ignores the challenge that extreemists for peace tend quite insistent that everyone accept their ideals for the world and have even turned quite violent witness chicago summer mathew paranoia assumes that anyone who argues against his viewpoint must masturbate over guns ammo fire the oven isn hot enough mccullou whipple wisc edu never program and drink beer the same time doesn work
alt.atheism	death penalty gulf war long article optima arizona edu sham arizona edu shamim zvonko mohamed writes this the most unmitigated bilge seen while jim brown obviously has possession the right wing token diplomatic alternatives including sanctions were ineffective december former national security adviser zbigniew brzezinski told senate committee that sanctions were costing iraq million per day and that the multinational coalition could take all the time the world iraq suggested was losing badly every day defied the demands while the community nations won every day with taking life loss life fcnl washington newsletter understand that number deceptive the reason that the money cost was non oil sales for the most part iraq still not allowed sell oil many the things under the initial sanctions but still surviving and btw the reason brought the blanket bombing germany was because you were bemoaning the iraqi civilian casualties being deplorable yet blanket bombing was instituted because bombing wasn accurate enough hit industrial military targets decisive way any other method that time but the gulf war precision bombing was the norm bullshit the gulf massacre all ordnance used was smart the rest that was just regular dumb iron bombs and stuff have you forgotten that the pentagon definition successful patriot launch was when the missile cleared the launching tube with damage that successful interception scud was defined the patriot and scud passed each other the same area the sky the have heard figures closer but won quibble your figures most was dropped carpet bombing regions only occupied enemy troops drops lot bombs one sortie and used them around the clock not mention other smaller aircraft using dumb munitions the patriot uses proximity fuse the adjusted figures for number patriot kills derivitives that figure came not from some fluke the pentagon but someone working with such stuff another part dod the statement precision bombing was the norm true around areas where civilians were close the target dropped tonnage very little bombs populated regions explaining the figures and the that was the smart stuff hit again try follow here that means this smart arsenal missed this figure far below all the other figures have seen indeed accurate then how you explain the discrepancy between that figure and other figures from international organizations most figures have seen place the hit ratio close which still far higher than your does your figure say bomb missed the plane took off with and the bomb never hit the target regardless whether not the bomb was dropped such methods are used all the time lie with statistics the stories hundreds thousands iraqi civilian dead just plain bunk prove have source that says that date the civilian death count excuse mean collateral damage about have never seen any source that was claiming such figure please post the source its reliability can judged mccullou whipple wisc edu never program and drink beer the same time doesn work
alt.atheism	david coresh god one the morning shows think was the today show david koresh lawyer was interviewed during that interview flipped through some letters that david koresh wrote one letters was written hebrew near the bottom the page koresh adonai did anyone else see that what could this mean him david writing this
alt.atheism	smullyanism for the day article tpi pepper east sun com geoff east sun com geoff arnold sun bos coast near the top writes this raymond smullyan quote too big for sig but deserves posting imho big for sig way keith home the billdboard sig files ryan private note jennifer fakult this post may contain one more the following sarcasm cycnicism irony humor please aware this possibility and not allow yourself confused and thrown for loop doubt assume all the above the owners this account not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability recognize any the above read your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	christian morality article apr nott kax nott kevin anthoney writes article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes the fact god could cause you believe anything wants you but think about for minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you because they wanted love you there difference between believing the existence entity and loving that entity god could show directly that exists and still have free choice about whether love him not why doesn kevin anthoney kax nott don believe anything you read sig files kevin makes good point here and when that theists miss all too often that the belief diety not necessarily coupled with agreement love that diety really they have yet another bit convincing just beyond belief guess the standard argumet goes something like well once you believe god you know god love and you will choose love him wasnt widely accepted and asserted laughable best regards adam adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws understand one another fear beyond your comprehension gandalf
alt.atheism	christian morality article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com dan schaertel writes article ousrvr oulu kempmp phoenix oulu petri pihko writes dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote love god just much she loves she wants seduce she know what but she did you would probably consider rape probably because rape simple logic arguments are folly you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools those who tried trick him with logic our ability reason just spec creation yet some think the ultimate you rely simply your reason then you will never know more than you now your argument the type you know once you try yet there are many atheists who have sincerely tried and believed for many years but were eventually honest enough admit that they had lived virtual reality obviously there are many christians who have tried and believe nothing may work for some but not for others doesn give any insight into overall god overall truth religion would seem dependent solely the individual well individually created and since christians have failed show how there way life any better than ours not see why the attempt try necessary even particularly attractive learn you must accept that which you don know what does this mean learn you must accept that you don know something right but learn you must accept something don know why this not the way prefer learn unwise merely swallow everything you read suppose write book telling how the great invisible pink unicorn has helped daily problems would you accept this since you can know whether true not one asks you swallow everything fact jesus warns against but let ask you question you beleive what you learn history class for that matter anything school mean just what other people have told you and you don want swallow what others say right well will nerver know for sure were told the truth not but the very least there bit more evidence pointing the fact that say there was military conflict vietnam years ago then there supernatural diety who wants live certain way the fact that jesus warned against means nothing warn against too big deal the life death and resurection christ documented historical fact this not true the first two choices here life and death are scantily documented and the last one total malarky unless one uses the bible and that totally circular perhaps better use the imagination one ignorance someone else will address this sure and refer you plenty documentation much anything else you learn how you choose what believe and what not could argue that george washington myth never lived because don have any proof except what told however all the major events the life jesus christ were fortold hundreds years before him neat trick how this there nothing more disgusting than christian attempts manipulate interpret the old testament being filled with signs for the coming christ every little reference stick bit wood autmoatically interpreted the cross what miscarriage philology there way get into sceptical heart you can not say you have given sincere effort with the attitude you seem have you must trust not just church and participate activities were you ever willing die for what you believed well since have skeptical hearts thank goodness there way get into here have the irreconcilable difference christians glorify exactly what tend despise snub trust belief faith without knowledge lucky one day and happen thinking god the same time enkephalins then may associate this sign god will feel right and will trust without knowing maybe religosity does not seem anything that conclusively arrived but rather seems more sudden affliction believe many were willing die for what believed many were not the question suchg attitude reflective correct healthy morality would seem not the same thing could reflect fanaticism for example and any case expression simple selfishness adam adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws understand one another fear beyond your comprehension gandalf
alt.atheism	from soc religion christian found this little gem don know anyone has any interest comments everyone commited christian that battling with problem know that romans talks about how are saved our faith not our deeds yet hebrews and james say that faith without deeds useless saying you fools you still think that just believing enough now someone fully believing but there life totally lead themselves and not god according romans that person still saved there faith but then there the bit which says that god preferes someone who cold him doesn know him condemned lukewarm christian someone who knows and believes god but doesn make any attempt live the bible now the opinion that you saved through faith alone not what you taught romans but how can square mind the teachings james conjunction with the lukewarm christian being spat out can anyone help this really bothers christ will adam adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws understand one another fear beyond your comprehension gandalf
alt.atheism	college atheists article apr nuscc nus cmtan iss nus tan chade meng dan writes andrew cmu edu nanci ann miller writes nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes read article about poll done students the ivy league schools which was reported that third the students indentified themselves atheists this lot higher than among the general population wonder what the reasons for this discrepancy are because they are more intelligent younger this the wave the future what the figure for the general population the last heard americans believe reincarnation can somebody quote stat don have stat but unfortunately did read generally that both smoking and belief the supernatural occultish garbage the rise here would guess that probably has something with the ease which ideas and thoughts are communicated college campus world where theists are forced contend with and listen atheists and theists other religions some are bound have change their beliefs over four years there nowhere run funny country works the other way round univ life stressful for most people remember asian population xtians like prey these people there nowhere run from them this very interesting thing the principle sort the same though all philosophical ideas are generally tried out and tested mostly during college years whether the idea christian atheist doesn always matter but like say because atheists are more intelligent the unenlightened one tan chade meng the wise man tells his wife that understands her singapore cmtan iss nus the fool tries prove regards adam adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws understand one another fear beyond your comprehension gandalf
alt.atheism	some thoughts christian books think took this liar lunatic the real thing the last time was the time before anyway let somebody else have turn can debate with straight face perhaps for something completely different could just ridicule him gather all the posts from the last two times did this and email them him aside can you believe that somebody actually got book published about this must have been vanity press would recomend anyone out there visit your local christian bookstore and become aware the stuff they sell quite interesting most the stuff far from intelectual about the level chick pamphelets common fundie bookstore should have least one section about how you should hate wiccans pagans catholics mormons rock musicians and anyone else who not fanatical them hate for the love god even more interesting watching the people who frequent such places very scary people they hear voices from god telling them whatever they want hear they were not christians most them would locked away maybe this why federal money was reduced mental institutions the reagan administration had get their religious leaders out where would christianity jesus got eight fifteen years with time off for good behavior new york state senator james donovan capitol punishment alan beware touch these wires instant death anyone found doing this will prosecuted
alt.atheism	what means human was parsifal article apr ucla edu brad pierce pierce ucla edu writes the bedrock spiritual unreason the belief that resonant yet but theology full reason even believe based false premises etc etc ill defined terms spirit transcendental mind self consciousness ultimate reality soul elan vital etc have meaning sadly adherents spiritual movements are seldom satisfied hold there meaning consciousness mind self with this harmless illogicality they seem inexorably drawn belief what illogicality the primacy the spiritual and transcendental over the material and empirical the primacy pipe dreams jabberwocky and illusion over facts science and reason since when for instance non behaviourist psychology pipe dream surely the major purpose the science psychology understand the workings the mind all creatures all feelings all thoughts all perceptions all processes and all phenomena are manifestations the mundane matter energy space and time those who believe otherwise albeit some not supplicate god are not atheists manifestations the mundane sounds rather transcendental fact matter energy space and time are well measured but mysterious concepts does atheist really have believe your reductionism cast out not following the true faith richard wilson logica industry ltd
alt.atheism	christian morality acooper mac macalstr edu turin turambar department utter misery said dan schaertel article followed the quoting right much anything else you learn how you choose what believe and what not could argue that george washington myth never lived because don have any proof except what told however all the major events the life jesus christ were fortold hundreds years before him neat trick how this there nothing more disgusting than christian attempts manipulate interpret the old testament being filled with signs for the coming christ every little reference stick bit wood autmoatically interpreted the cross what miscarriage philology think may also worthwhile pointing out that take the appellation rabbi seriously then jesus had full grasp contemporary scripture mat jesus saith unto them did never read the scriptures mat jesus answered and said unto them err not knowing mat the scriptures nor the power god following from this would have been wonderful position fulfil prophesies and the says much mat but how then shall the scriptures fulfilled mat that thus must mat but all this was done that the scriptures the mat prophets might fulfilled then all the disciples mat forsook him and fled the books comprising the referred scripture had not been accessible then probably would different matter tony
alt.atheism	another request for darwin fish hello gang there have been some notes recently asking where obtain the darwin fish this the same question have and have not seen answer the net anyone has contact please post the net email thanks john chadwick johnchad triton unm edu
alt.atheism	another request for darwin fish darwin fish can bought from join the darwinners send receive your official evolving fish wherever you want spread the good news darwinners sunset blvd ste the greatest theory ever told jenny forty years from now nursing homes will filled with demented hackers studying their blank laptop screens nicely placed knitted quilts keep their knees warm mitchum
alt.atheism	faq sheet mike mcangus mam mouse cmhnet org wrote the way news announce newusers has article can remember which one that recommends reading newsgroup for month before posting this makes sense because you get idea who the players are and what the current discussions are about the only one who followed that advice spent month just reading too mainly because did not know much about the way atheists think even printed out the faqs and discussed with friend before started posting alt atheism deals with religious issues more appropriately lack religious beliefs which are their very nature very controversial makes sense read what being discussed and how just make sure you are not repeating something others have said better petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics the truth pihatie finou oulu physics the rule oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu chemistry the game
alt.atheism	gulf war was death penalty was political atheists mark mccullough mccullou snake wisc edu wrote details built chemical plant alteer near baghdad however the plant intended use was aid the iraqi infrastructure not example selling weapon may sound nitpicking but are going refuse sell valuable parts that build the infrastructure because dual use technology contending that this case and the case the sale pesticides companies that they knew full well that was used for the production chemical weapons even that was not its officially stated purpose personally don think that letting iran conquer iraq would have been good thing for that matter neither for the reasons you state the hypocrisy and claims the did not help iraq that make angry plus the fact that the usa seems believe has the right interfere where sees fit has interest rather than duty intervene where required this demonstrated the failure the anything about east timor and the region becoming destabilised the usa might have done something approaching the right thing given reservations about the uncessary number civillian casualites but for wholly the wrong reasons and after having hand creating the situation that way would affect the later military action against iraq did not suggest would and would ridiculous assert otherwise was simply indicating the usa has previously aided iraq intel manufacturing techniques something that nature apparently data orginally from satellites although doubt that iraq would have been given the raw data concerning troop concentrations aaron turner aaron minster york
alt.atheism	death penalty gulf war long shamim zvonko mohamed sham arizona edu wrote bullshit the gulf massacre all ordnance used was smart the rest that was just regular dumb iron bombs and stuff have you forgotten that the pentagon definition successful patriot launch was when the missile cleared the launching tube with damage that successful interception scud was defined the patriot and scud passed each other the same area the sky and the that was the smart stuff hit again try follow here that means this smart arsenal missed used have full figures this including the tons bombs dropped and the number cluster bomblet munitions used had heard the the laser guided weapons hit which unprecedented rate success the iron weapons hit again unprecedented the following rough estimate but this means the tons bombs dropped aircraft around tons missed not sure what proportion this was dropped baghdad rather than troop concentrations iraq and kuwait much the tonnage dropped was cluster munitions were all the mrls rounds and many the artillery rounds napalm and fuel air explosives were also used remember how were told that weapons mass destruction such fae were very naughty indeed
alt.atheism	death penalty gulf war long mark mccullough mccullou snake wisc edu wrote this figure far below all the other figures have seen indeed accurate then how you explain the discrepancy between that figure and other figures from international organizations most figures have seen place the hit ratio close which still far higher than your does your figure say bomb missed the plane took off with and the bomb never hit the target regardless whether not the bomb was dropped such methods are used all the time lie with statistics answering the last sentence claimed that they had success rate without initially explaining until pressed that this meant that the aircraft came back having dropped their bombs somewhere regardless whether they had hit the intended target indeed anything all aaron turner
alt.atheism	death penalty gulf war long mark mccullough mccullou snake wisc edu wrote prove have source that says that date the civilian death count excuse mean collateral damage about have never seen any source that was claiming such figure please post the source its reliability can judged this figure would not simply deaths bombing but also death later from disease the sewer system baghdad was deliberately targeted and starvation believe but when get copy the latest research june july that this was the figure proposed the census bureau report the matter the report was suppressed and the attempted sack the author the report but failed due procedural technicality the author now permanent leave aaron turner
alt.atheism	gulf war selling arms mark mccullough mccullou snake wisc edu wrote heard about the arms sale saudi arabia now how such grave mistake sell saudi arabia weapons are you claiming that shouldn sell any weapons other countries straightforward answer please saudi arabia oppressive regime that has been recently interfering the politcs newly renunified yemen including assasinations and border incursions entirely possible that they will soon invade unluckily for yemen not popular the west they managed put aside political differences during reunification and thus the west has effectively lost one half north client state aaron turner
alt.atheism	free moral agency article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes deleted stuff from andrew wrt which atheist myth bill andrew the myth which refer the convoluted counterfeit athiests have created make religion appear absurd counterfeit atheists hmmmm just cheap knock offs the true atheists religion demonstrates itself absurd constantly personally someone asks happy point out how this rather than approach religion including christainity rational manner and debating its claims the are stated atheists concoct outrageous parodies and then hold the religious accountable for beliefs they don have what more accurately oxymoric the term like reasonable atheist man what your pill wrt atheists you going make such contentious statements back them least read news time and time again hashed out the beliefs various religous doctrines hold try debating reasonably with someone who makes statement like more accurately oxymoric the term like reasonable atheist then take look the responses given tammy seem pretty reasonable nay even polite accusations myths flyin here good example what said above read the post again said acoording which means referring christian doctrine understand speaking for myself you know purpose posting was present basic overview christain doctrines since seemed germane saw your reference according the original article then you such excellent job spewing dogma that well the implication was pretty clear wrong this case jeez misunderstanding let more statements wrap this thing you read post with same care read the faq wouldn having this conversation you had written your post with the same care the faq has been wouldn having this discussion gems about evidence deleted yes human reason does always come back the existence god having this discussion are not jeez have point this out you this discussion not all instances human reason therefore your implication false well this interesting truth determined politically correct content granted extremely unhip wasp male and anything european contemptable but thought this kind dialogue the purpose was get the truth things but then remember the oxymoron reasonalble atheist and understand how lame can you get who said anything about the truth things read the faq very carefully please then report your findings about where says the purpose find the truth things and stop impressing your own misguided image atheists upon really pissing off bill
alt.atheism	discordian subgenius books addresses etc requested here are some addresses sources bizarre religious satire and commentary plus some bijou book reviewettes loompanics unlimited box port townsend usa publishers one the most infamous mail order book catalogue the world anarchism discordianism libertarianism cryogenics money making legal and illegal privacy and security self defense and all kinds other stuff that keeps christians awake nights the church the subgenius box dallas usa the original end times church for post human mutants high temple for scoffers mockers and blasphemers one the few board the ist saucers and escape space god jhvh stark fist removal bob dobbs god sales waiting take your money and ordain you magazines sick audio cassettes and assorted offensive cynisacreligious material periodic lists addresses pink religious cults and contact points for the world wierdo network expect slow response mail only conspiracies are well organized you will eventually get what you pay for you give them some slack counter productions box london source obscure books wide ranging selection surrealism anarchism subgenius discordianism robert anton wilson lovecraftian horror cyberpunk forteana political and social commentary wilhelm reich orgone tech obscure rock music and send sae and maybe bribe they need your money and ask for catalogue tell them mathew sent you ordered from these folks three four times now and they about fast and efficient you can expect from this sort operation forbidden planet various sites the particular along london new oxford street just down the road from tottenham court road tube station mass market oddness subgenius robert anton wilson loompanics and course huge quantities not terribly good selection but they the high street reviewette loompanics greatest hits isbn loompanics selection articles picked from the books loompanics catalogue subjects include christian dispensationalism how right wing christians encouraged the cold war satanic child abuse myths religion and censorship plus lots anarchist and libertarian stuff situationism computers and privacy and guaranteed contain least one article that offend you like for example the interview with bradley smith the holocaust revisionist good sampling stuff coffee table book course whether you want leave this sort stuff lying around your coffee table another matter quote the fundamentalists leap and down apoplectic rage and joy their worst fantasies are vindicated and therefore they like think their entire theology and socio political agenda too meanwhile teen age misanthropes and social misfits murder their enemies classmates families friends even complete strangers all because they read one anton lavey cooks listened one too many records the born agains are ready burn again and not just books this time reviewette the book the subgenius dobbs the subgenius foundation isbn simon schuster described rolling stone sick masterpiece for those who can still laugh the fact that nothing funny anymore the official bible the subgenius church containing the sacred teachings bob dobbs instant answers everything causes catalytic brain cell loss seconds the secret total slack how relax the safety your delusions and pull the wool over your own eyes nuclear doom and other things laugh quote has been known answer questions concerning universal truths with screams with suggestive silence peeing down his pants leg his most famous sermon was cosmic simplicity bob standing the stage with his hands his pockets smoking looking around and saying nothing heated arguments still rage among the monks often erupting into fatal duels towhether the master consulted his wristwatch during this divine period grace reviewette high weirdness mail rev ivan stang isbn simon schuster encyclopedia wierd organizations you can contact mail space jesuses christian christian ufo contactees new age saps creationists flat earthers white supremacist churches plus yawn csicop sceptical enquirer and stuff like that not just list addresses though each kook group ruthlessly mocked and ridiculed with sarcastic glee you like alt atheism flame wars this the book for you made laugh until stomach ached revised edition due some time the next year two sample entry entertaining demons unawares southwest radio church box oklahoma city your watchman the wall another flagellating genuflecting fundamentalist outfit their booklet entertaining demons unawares exposes the star wars dungeons dragons saturday morning cartoon satanic connection horrifying detail left out smurfs though especially liked the bit about wonder woman antichrist origins keep mind that once you send for anything from these people you their mailing list for life reviewette the abolition work bob black isbn loompanics selection bob black painfully witty and intelligent anarchist tracts collected into book form were this good insufferable probably the only thought provoking political book that fun read quote babble about the wages sin serves cover the sin wages want rights not rites sex not sects only eros and eris belong our pantheon surely the nazarene necrophile has had his revenge now remember pain just god way hurting you reviewette principia discordia malaclypse the younger isbn loompanics the infamous discordian bible reprinted its entirety and then some yes you could ftp the online copy but this one has all the pictures explains absolutely everything including the law fives how start discordian cabal and instructions for preaching discordianism christians quote discordian required during his early illumination off alone partake joyously hot dog friday this devotive caremony remonstrate against the popular paganisms the day catholic christendom meat friday judaism meat pork hindic peoples meat beef buddhists meat animal and discordians hot dog buns reviewette natural law don put rubber your willy robert anton wilson isbn loompanics the author the illuminatus trilogy rails against natural law natural morality objective reality and other pervasive myths witty and thought provoking work from someone who actually seems know argument from hole the ground quote since theological propositions are scientifically meaningless those pragmatic disposition simply won buy such dubious merchandise maybe remotely there might something such promotions there might something the talking dogs and the stocks arabian tapioca mines that fields once sold his comedies but suspect that recognize con game operation least want hear the dog talk see the tapioca ore before buy into such deals all the books mentioned above should available from counter productions the directly from the subgenius foundation loompanics unlimited mathew what you mean anyway dreamed laid toaster daddy caught the act can you take devo
alt.atheism	free moral agency article voinnr lynx unm edu cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes the myth which refer the convoluted counterfeit athiests have created make religion appear absurd counterfeit atheists hmmmm just cheap knock offs the true atheists they must theists disguise any event don need create religious parodies just look some actual religions which are absurd mand now mdeep thoughts mby jack handey mif you parachuting and your parachute doesn open and your friends are all watching you fall think funny gag would pretend you were swimming
alt.atheism	atheism survey doing research atheism part which involves field research here the net the following survey directed towards all readers this group intended get data about the basis atheistic belief would seriously appreciate each and every one you would fill out and mail back mtabbott unix amherst edu first all tried structure questions that can answered variety ways with varying amounts detail possible give succinct answers most everything but there enough here keep most you typing for hours sure much detail you want give mean great but also important for have broad base individuals possible even minimal responses are far better than nothing short survey you just answer the questions without elaboration secondly hope some the questions don come off obnoxious know that phrases like what would convince you the existence god imply that seminary student intent proving you all ignorant godless heathens fact not too sure about the existence higher power myself use god question locution rather than ideology easier than just repeating deity higher power every time also tend use lot anthropological buzzwords like belief system although know some you might contend that you don have any beliefs but are skeptical towards everything understand but you know what mean think such buzzwords abbreviations for the rather unweildy phrases required get the precise idea across lastly thanks please fill out much you can much detail you can and send them research and thank you where would you place your beliefs the spectrum theism agnosticism weak atheism strong atheism feel free elaborate your specific beliefs what any religious tradition were you raised did you ever believe the existence god several the following questions presume that the answer this yes you always been atheist least never theist you may have modify the question answer somewhat how serious was your your family involvement how and when did you start doubt the tenets you were raised believe how and when did your final break with your beliefs any occur realize that this often more ongoing process than event per whatever the case just describe whatever detail you wish what contact with other atheists have you had before and after and during your conversion atheism certainly your involvement with alt atheism counts how have net discussions affected your beliefs what extent you think other atheists have influenced you your beliefs did you come your beliefs through discussion through independent means some combination the two other means are you convinced that your beliefs were acquired through wholly rational means proofs the non existence god etc was perhaps least part through other means alienation from mainstream religion etc what extent you feel you understand the universe through your beliefs what phenomena the universe and human existence anything from physical phenomena the problem the existence evil human affairs you feel are adequately dealt with your beliefs and where are they lacking explanatory method what would take for you question change your beliefs what would convince you the existence god what would convince you the plausibility god existence and forth how dynamic are your beliefs are they constantly changing have they stayed more less the same for some time are you involved career education science what extent you think science has influenced your beliefs issac asimov claimed that science was the new secular religion and that scientists are very real sense the new priesthood you see the pursuit science having quasi religious base even religious element this survey intended get data from broad range individuals but also help narrow down the field small group people whose ideas and histories could very useful would you willing have the basis this survey write you find out more about you and your beliefs not fine your filling out the survey alone great thanks again feel free contact you have any questions about what doing with this data you have anything say addition what asked about above mark abbott mtabbott unix amherst
alt.atheism	americans and evolution now with free ockham razor inside sorry about the delay responding due conference paper deadline panic article qsnqqinn senator bedfellow mit edu bobs thnext mit edu robert singleton writes article apr dcs warwick simon dcs warwick simon clippingdale writes alarming amounts agreement deleted made statement about ockums razor from experiences physics thanks for info baysian statistics very interesting and didn know before follow your proof but have one questions have two hypotheses and the latter more complicated which definition means that complicated isn fact where comes from more the other way around from where the complement and axiom anything sense necessarily more complicated than for any and may splitting hairs but what trying say that irrespective subjective impressions how complicated something holds with equality and only you point out very simple matter show and thus preferd now say that consistent with the data say can you elaborate some this well means that likely observed operative operative this implies that observing does not provide any useful information which might allow discriminate between the respective possibilities that and are operative the difference reduces the difference between the unknown and unhelpful prior probabilities and and where and are equally consistent with the data that observing doesn give any pointers which operative the particular case where and however know that their prior probabilities are ordered although don know the actual values and this which allows deploy the razor throw out any such also the real world isn clear cut and dry seems can always determine whether the equality true that certainly true but the particular point here was whether not divine component actually underlies the prevalence religion addition the memetic transmission component which even the religious implicitly acknowledge operative when they talk spreading the word now seems said that the observed variance religious belief well accounted for the memetic transmission model but rather less well one proposes divine component addition since would expect the latter conspire against wide variance and even mutual exclusion among beliefs thus personal feeling that isn even equal this case but smaller memetic transmission divine component the variance among beliefs but happily acknowledge that this subjective impression btw beef with your baysian argument was not mathematical one checked most your work and didn find error and you seem very careful there probably isn math mistake think the mistake philosophical but just make sure understand you can please rephrase non technical terms think this reasonable request always try look for ways explaining physics non physicist not baysian statistician nor any type statistician this would very helpful not that statistician such either but the idea that both theism and atheism are compatible with all the read observations date however theism the type with which concerned also suggests that for instance prayer may answered people may miraculously healed both are principle amenable statistical verification and that god may generally intervene measurable ways this means that these regions the space possible observations which loosely termed appearances god have some nonzero probability under the theistic hypothesis and zero under the atheistic since there only much probability available for each hypothesis scatter around over the observation space the probability which theism expends making appearances god possible must come from somewhere else other possible observations all else being equal this means that observation which isn appearance god must have slightly higher probability under atheism than under theism the bayesian stuff implies that such observations must cause running estimate for the probability the atheistic hypothesis increase with corresponding decrease running estimate for the probability the theistic hypothesis sorry that still bit jargonesque but rather difficult put any other way since does depend intimately the properties conditional probability densities and particularly that the total area under them always unity analogy may may not helpful say that hypothesis the coin fair and that the coin unfair two headed used and avoid confusion with heads and tails then total total the observations are string heads with tails this compatible with both fair coin and two headed coin however the probability expended making possible the appearance tails even though they don actually appear must come from somewhere else since the total must unity and comes this case from the probability the appearance heads say our running estimates time are and the observation time another head the estimates are modified according and now don know the actual prior probability head but the multiplier for half that for this true every time the coin tossed and head observed thus whatever the initial values the estimates after heads have and and since any time you can show that and thus hence the estimate for the fair coin hypothesis must decrease each trial and that for the two headed coin hypothesis must increase even though both hypotheses are compatible with string heads the loose analogy between unfair coin and atheism and between fair coin and theism with observations consistent with both tail which would falsify unfair coin analogous appearance god which would falsify atheism not claiming that the analogy extends the numerical values the various probabilities just that the principle the same constant observation evidence for gods evidence for them all possible under the respective theisms constantly increases the notional estimated probability that they don exist important draw distinction between theism that could supported not supported evidence and theism that can given theism for which evidence principle not possible doesn make sense say lack evidence supports the contrary view quite but this type theism what might call the the terms our ockham razor discussion and bin those grounds depends upon your conception this god conception like zeus who happened come down earth play quite frequently then agree with you lack evidence for this conception god evidence that does not exist but your conception god one that does not make falsifiable predictions see below falsifiable predictions then disagree lack evidence does not support disbelief the hypotheses don have falsifiable and indeed model the theism isn falsifiable used the phrase should obverse given any specific theism does not make the prediction that why used the word should theism makes predictions about any specific event can only say believe that god did such and such after such and such happens believe god will such and such but for any given can never priori say can not even say this for the set all some this what don like about your use probability also have way assigning these probabilities hold science positivistic criteria someone cannot tell how measure even principle then probability not applicable hypothesis such the case when theistic and atheistic for example what how measure you don have don need the above analogy know any prior probabilities deduce that the updating multiplier for the fair coin hypothesis less than unity and that the corresponding multiplier for the two headed coin hypothesis greater than unity you don need know the initial values the running estimates either clear that after large number observations fair coin approaches zero and two headed coin approaches unity all you need know whether larger than for observed and this follows from the assumptions that there are certain events rendered possible not necessary under which are not possible under and all else equal baysian statistics relies upon series observations but what the hypothesis isn amenable observation and even for statements that are amenable observation some observations are not relevant sequence observations must chosen with care curious know what types observations you have mind concerning theism and atheism any observations you like really doesn matter nor affect the reasoning provided that there are some possible observations which would count appearances god examples this might demonstration the efficacy prayer the veracity revelation but any statement about for general still counts prediction the theism question says that prayer may answered that miracles may happen see interpretation quoted again above what god exists means then this prediction for such what distinguishes from the atheist hypothesis which predicts that this stuff does not happen for such theism does not make the claim that for such should say that theism doesn maybe was too quick say had common language you said that the existence god you mean the notion that the deity described the bible and christians does interact with the universe claimed those agents agreed with this however must careful here believe this not making any claims maybe should have changed does can there important shift emphasis but any way since only have belief cannot conclude for such downgrade does interact may interact which would actually better since does interact implies falsifiability which both agree misplaced don think theism makes predictions maybe not understanding what you mean prediction could you explain what you mean this word explain but bear mind that this isn central all require theism that not make the prediction appearances god will never happen does atheism before somebody points out that quantum mechanics doesn make this prediction either the difference that and atheism not form partition predictions include such statements prayer efficacious implying you the stats you will find that prayer efficacious prayer not efficacious verily say unto you this generation shall not pass till all these things fulfilled don think have any problems misunderstanding here persistent observation this stuff not happening consistent with though may more consistent with explained the bayesian stats post even god exists unfalsifiable that problem for argument other than that you have let the number observations infinity falsify asymptotically btw not consider argument that requires infinite number observations valid rather that part the argument not valid existing humans can never make infinite number measurments and any conclusion that reilies this don accept valid that fine don claim that theism false merely that the finite number observations available far suggest that and that continue observe the suggestion looks better and better renormalization stuff deleted the bayesian stats post assumed that theism was indeed unfalsifiable finite number observations here the relevant quote the important assumption that there are some observations which are compatible with the theist hypothesis and not with the atheist hypothesis and thus would falsify atheism these are what called appearances god but this need not taken too literally any observation which requires for its explanation that one more gods exist will count all other observations are assumed compatible with both hypotheses this leaves theism unfalsifiable and atheism falsifiable single observation only such appearances god here problem with this for something falsifiable must make the prediction that should not seen seen then the hypothesis has been falsified now atheism word oposition something theism theism aserts belief and atheism aserts disbelief there are certain atheisms that are certainly falsifiable just there are certain theisms that are falsifable theism asserts the world only years old and that god does not decieve then this has been falsified however the atheism that oposition unfalsifiable theism also unfalsifiable could wrong this statment contd think you are appearance god sufficient falsify atheism whereas general the corresponding theism unfalsifiable think more about until then here general question suppse were unfalsifiable not also unfalsifiable way counterexample let the coin fair more accurately that not makes sense the two sides the coin are different this unfalsifiable tossing the coin even string heads consistent with fair coin and you have infinite number tosses falsify the limit its converse falsifiable and falsified when least one head and least one tail have appeared this partly what wrong with you baysian argument which requires observations made there are simply such observations that have truth value relation the statement god exists now use your symmetry argument can understand why someone would say since the statement god does not exist makes predictions will choose not believe but none the less this would founded type faith you don like the word faith insert belief for which there falsifiable evidence instead assume you meant god exists there the highlight but our agreed definition exists the statement makes predictions said above although isn falsifiable finite number observations actually mean god does not exist makes predictions oops sorry mea culpa the truth this statment actually depends upon which god you are refering but can think some conceptions god for which true but once again open the posibility that could wrong give some examples predictions the statment god does not exist here one that can think true then there would healing miricles but this can principle never determined one way the other there are cases which people seem recover and are healed without the help doctor and for known reason these situations fact happen they are consistent with theistic hypothesis but way support such hypothesis agree here they are not inconsistent with atheistic hypothesis can think one prediction from god does not exist that isn this type but might missing something the rapture will not happen october said rapture would have falsified atheism satisfaction had happened although its failure happen does not course falsify any theisms other than those which specifically predicted phenomenon which requires the existence one more gods for its explanation will ever observed that about sums the whole thing bob singleton bobs thnext mit edu cheers simon simon clippingdale simon dcs warwick department computer science tel university warwick fax coventry
alt.atheism	some thoughts healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes tammy see maddi trimmed healy well you going have practice but you getting the hang soon going have give you new nickname try these for size tammy lucky seven healy tammy pass the falafel healy tammy healy tammy learning doing healy maddi never useful post hausmann maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don try this home remember post professionally
alt.atheism	free moral agency article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes mand now mdeep thoughts mby jack handey mif you parachuting and your parachute doesn open and your friends are all watching you fall think funny gag would pretend you were swimming you fall opens too gravity not just good idea the law dean kaflowitz
alt.atheism	religion cause was islamic authority over women scott sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu wrote the same works for the horrors history claim that christianity had little with the crusades the inquisition deny the awesome power that comes from faith absolute what seems you are doing twisting the reasonable statement that religion was never the solitary cause any evil into the unreasonable statement that religion has had evil impacts history that absurd scott until this paragraph would willingly amend earlier statements since your point are well made and generally accurate this last part though slips into hyperbole since discussed objections such generalizations before really don feel need again you haven seen those posts ask maddi she saves everything write bill
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes article idi fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes now you are saying that islamic bank something other than bcci would you care explain why was that when said hope islamic bank something other than bcci you called childish propagandist yes sure because the only obvious reason anyone would make the jump from bcci islamic bank associating islamic banking with muslim ownership but this case said hoped that bcci was not islamic bank and the only reason one would generalize from given islamic bank all islamic banks through stereotype one bad therefore all are bad but this case said hoped that bcci was not islamic bank next think you know there bosnia tap but this case said hoped that bcci was not islamic bank jon
alt.atheism	free moral agency article dba dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes deletion conner bobby mozumder myth performing artist real moslem crackpot provocateur you know everything and read all minds why don you tell side note isn telling that one cannot say for sure bobby mozunder firm believer provocateur what does that say about religious beliefs think that insightful comment especially when the same time have people like bill projector conner complaining that are posting parodies jon
alt.atheism	societally acceptable behavior article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes ioh fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article qgm news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes this doesn seem right want kill you can because that what decide sounds though you are confused between what want and what think morally right jon what you mean would your idea still apply said think kill you because that what decided what mean what said what want does not automatically translate into what think right that does not translate that way for you reply that think kill you because that what decided then what that means that for you what want does translate into what think right just doesn translate that way for jon
alt.atheism	societal basis for morality article apr cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes you asked look over here but was way back anyway reply cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb morals come from what societally accepted why follow that what right have expect others follow our notion societally mandated morality pardon the extremism but couldn murder your brother and say that was exercising rights saw them was doing what felt good didn want anyone forcing their morality don follow your morality believe that morality subjective each person entitled his own moral attitudes mine are not priori more correct than someone elses this does not mean however that must judge another the basis his rather than moral standards while entitled believe what his own moral sense tells him the rest society entitled pass laws spelling out punishments for behavior that offensive the majority why your last statement why which authority most criminals not see their behavior moral the may realize that immoral and not care they are thus not following their own moral system but being immoral for someone lay claim alternative moral system must sincere his belief and must internally consistent why your last statement why are these things necessary and believe belief terrorism can both sincere and frighteningly consistent some sociopaths lack innate moral sense and thus may incapable behaving morally while someone like hitler may have believed that his actions were moral may judge him immoral our standards holding that morality subjective does not mean that must excuse the murderer trouble this would sound just fine coming from someone like hitler too not mean any comparison offence david try substituting the social minority your choice for sociopath hitler and murderer logical difference someone like you someone like hitler zero sum frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	faith and dogma reply tgk toronto edu todd kelley light what happened waco need get something chest faith and dogma are dangerous agreed philosopher cannot christian because philosopher can change his mind whereas christian cannot due the nature faith and dogma present any religion hard for understand but quite few professional scientists and philosophers are theists sure religion has many good qualities encourages benevolence and philanthropy but also intolerance and superstition not sure that the balance not detrimental wouldn nice everyone were secular humanist sure would david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes not position say since know nothing about the situation that does not estimation qualify having head ass bob never accused you having your head your ass takes quite some time dealing with someone before accusing them having their head their ass was accusing the original poster benedikt believe being impaired after insult gregg resorts lies article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes could you maybe flesh out just bit did miss the full grandeur content virtue blinding atheism you may having difficulty seeing the light because you have your head your ass suggest making sure this not the case before posting again that was the original answer while does not say that has the head necessarily its ass would meaningless and pointless was not insinuated benedikt
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article fpv horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes deletion point morals are essence personal opinions usually ideally well founded motivated such but nonetheless personal the fact that real large lot people agree some moral question sometimes even for the same reason does not make morals objective makes humans somewhat alike their opinions that moral question which can good for the evolution social species and real large lot nice phrase people agree that there football desk supposed see logical difference between the two perhaps you can explain the difference since you seem see clearly rest deleted that fallacy and not the first time pointed out for one you have never given set morals people agree upon unlike football further you conveniently ignore here that there are many who would not agree tghe morality something the analogy does not hold one can expect sufficiently many people agree its being football while you have give the evidence that only vanishing number disagrees with set morals you have give further the above evidence not proof proof would evolve out testing your theory absolute morals against competing theories the above one the arguments you reiterate while you never answer the objections evidence that you are preacher benedikt
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics article jcinnt lynx unm edu cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes correction hard atheism faith yes can faith like weak atheism had that before benedikt
alt.atheism	theism and fanatism was islamic genocide article horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes theism strongly correlated with irrational belief absolutes irrational belief absolutes strongly correlated with fanatism deletion theism correlated with fanaticism have neither said that all fanatism caused theism nor that all theism leads fanatism the point theism increases the chance becoming fanatic one could course argue that would fanatics tend towards theism for example but just have loook the times history when theism was the dominant ideology invalidate that conclusion that that the basic mechanism behind imo the influence stalin for that matter ayn rand invalidates your assumption that theism the factor considered bogus just said that theism not the only factor for fanatism the point that theism factor gullibility blind obedience authority lack scepticism and are all more reliable indicators and the really dangerous people the sources fanaticism are often none these things they are cynical manipulators the gullible who know precisely what they are doing that claim you have support please note that especially the field theism the leaders believe what they say now some brands theism and more precisely some theists tend fanaticism grant you tar all theists with this brush bigotry not reasoned argument and reads like warm for censorship and restriction religious freedom ever read animal farm that straw man and usually discussions with you one has repeat read what have written above not every theism leads fanatism and not all fanatism caused theism the point there correlation and comes from innate features theism gullibility the way one them and say that going forbid religion another your straw men interesting that you have nothing better offer define irrational belief rational believe that reason always useful irrational belief belief that not based upon reason the latter has been discussed for long time with charley wingate one point that the beliefs violate reason often and another that process that does not lend itself rational analysis does not contain reliable information well there glaring paradox here argument that reason useful based reason would circular and argument not based reason would irrational which that bogus self reference not circular and since the evaluation usefulness possible within rational systems allowed your argument silly proving mathematical statements needs mathematics and mathematics are therfore circular the first part the second statement contains information because you don say what the beliefs are the beliefs are strong theism and strong atheism then your statement not general true the second part your sentence patently false counterexample axiomatic datum does not lend itself rational analysis but assumed contain reliable information regardless what process used obtain been speaking religious systems with contradictory definitions god here axiomatic datum lends itself rational analysis what you say here often refuted fallacy have look the discussion the axiom choice and further one can evaluate axioms larger systems out which they are usually derived exist derived you want that way further one can test the consistency and set axioms what you are trying say compared the evidence theists have for their claims the strength their demands makes the whole thing not only irrational but antirational can agree with this until you are specific which theism say that all theism necessarily antirational requires proof which suspect you not have using the traditonal definition gods personal supernatural entities with objective effects this world usually connected morals and the way the world works the affinity fanatism easily seen has true because believe nothing more than work hypothesis however the beliefs say they are more than work hypothesis don understand this can you formalise your argument person believes system becuase sounds nice that does not make true best work hypothesis however the content that true and that more than work hypothesis testing evaluating evidence for against therefore dismissed because already believed says wrong waste time not possible depending the further contents amalekites idolaters protestants are killed this can have interesting effects answer the question what the absolute set morals people agree like they would agree football being football benedikt
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women article racm darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes can recall anyone claiming that god makes anyone act particlar way think that you attempting manufacture contradiction world creator god does the moment creates the world and sayi that you can recall anyone even below your usual standard arguing argument based quite usual theistic assumptions namely god perfect god all knowing god sets the rules the rules don work for whatever reason because its omniscience the god has known advance deletion say that something defined contadictorily cannot exist really asking too much you would have existence depend grammar all you can really say that something poorly defined but that itself insufficient decide anything other than confusion course not question grammar question modelling has been discussed the wonderful time when you were not posting this group when contradictorily defined does not point instance reality unless there more information the definition that allows find somehow however when the contradictory attribute said essential has not got that attribute not the looking for can conclude that does not exist your point that there are better reasons for the phenomenon belief than the object belief may lead rat nest unnecessary complexity think know what you implying but like see your version this better alternative just the same that quite like predict coins falling predicted happened heads tails tails tails heads tails heads tails take and dismiss the rest because the unnecessary complexity the other evidence causes for easy understand explanation why humans believe gods read manwatching desmond morris benedikt
alt.atheism	death penalty gulf war long jbrown batman bmd trw com writes don regret the fact that sometimes military decisions have made which affect the lives innocent people but regret the circumstances which make those decisions necessary and regret the suffering caused those decisions afraid going have kill you don worry though loving christian guarantee that will regret the fact that have kill you although won regret the actual killing hadn intervened allowing hussein keep kuwait then would have been appeasement right but did you ever hear anyone advocate such course action are you just setting strawman not setting strawman all you want argue against the war then the only logical alternative was allow hussein keep kuwait false dichotomy diplomatic alternatives including sanctions were ineffective that because they weren even attempted but what about those who didn support hitler dreams conquest not they democratically voted for all his policies the nsdap got the elections and that was the last chance the german people got vote the matter they suffered along with the rest why does this bother you much you want know why bothers that thousands innocent people were maimed killed bombing the end when was far from clear that such bombing was necessary the world full evil and circumstances are not perfect many innocents suffer due the wrongful actions others regretable but that the way and why that way who set things that way this was happening before the gulf war why didn send the bombers east timor why aren sending the bombers now probably because not the saviors the world can police each and every country that decides self destruct invade another just the ones that have oil the ones that look like they might make success communism nor are strategic position get relief tibet east timor some other places don see that getting forces east timor any harder than getting them iraq tibetan people are rounded tortured and executed amnesty international recently reported that torture still widespread china why aren stopping them fact why are actively sucking them trading freely with them tell how could stop them and support for one not agree with the present policy sucking them you put agree that deplorable fine write your congressman and president clinton china status most favoured nation comes for renewal june point out that the shouldn offering favourable trading terms such despicable regime doubt anything will happen clinton keener trade sanctions against europe unbelievable comments about the rodney king case deleted the media not totally monolithic even though there prevailing liberal bias programs such the macneil lehrer news hour try give balanced and fair reporting the news there are even conservative sources out there you know where look hurrah for rush any idea how many kill files you just ended atheist arguing against killing innocent people you supposed christian are arguing that kill innocent people long you get some guilty ones well hardly didn say that good thing kill innocent people the end just unfortunately don live perfect world and there are perfect solutions one going resist tyranny then innocent people both sides are going suffer and die didn say unfortunate but sometimes necessary the ends justify the means you having criticised moral relativism the past are now arguing that position judge the morality allied actions the end the war you certainly are not such position you are moral relativist the same tired old misunderstanding moral relativism means that there objective standard morality doesn mean you can judge other people morals christ bike how many times have tried hammer that into your head where your christian love where your absolute morality how quick you are discard them when suits you ivan stang would say jesus would puke one day will stand before jesus and give account every word and action even this discourse this forum understand the full ramifications that and prepared don believe that you can make the same claim obviously not atheist don think you get with jesus though was long haired lunatic peace nik was not and btw the reason brought the blanket bombing germany was because you were bemoaning the iraqi civilian casualties being deplorable yet blanket bombing was instituted because bombing wasn accurate enough hit industrial military targets decisive way any other method that time but the gulf war precision bombing was the norm the point was why make big stink about the relatively few civilian casualties that resulted spite precision bombing when many more civilians proportionately and quantitatively died under the blanket bombing right unfortunately for you turned out that opinions the matter were entirely consistent that condemned the bombing dresden too think you being bit glib with your explanation the blanket bombing policy too you make sound though were aiming for military targets and could only get them destroying civilian buildings next door understand that not the case aimed deliberately civilian targets order cause massive damage and inspire terror amongst the german people civilians suffer but less civilians suffered this war than any other iany other history come with wars like the falklands fresh people minds that sort propaganda isn going fool anyone the stories hundreds thousands iraqi civilian dead just plain bunk yes bunk the lost servicemen over four years and the majority them were directly involved fighting yes and what about the millions casualties the russians suffered hardly surprising the didn lose many men given that you turned late mathew
alt.atheism	gulf war selling arms jbrown batman bmd trw com writes mathew agree this seems the crux your whole position isn that the shouldn have supported hussein and sold him arms fight iran agree and agree ruthlessly hunting down those who did but did sell arms hussein and done deal now invades kuwait just sit back and say well sold him all those arms suppose just wants use them now too bad for kuwait unfortunately sitting back and letting things not the way correct former mistake destroying hussein military potential did was the right move but agree with your statement reagan and bush made grave error judgment sell arms hussein but still happening that the entire point only last month john major hailed great victory that had personally secured sale arms saudi arabia the same month sold jet fighters the same indonesian government that busy killing the east timorese all very well say oops made boo boo better clean the mistake but the and keep making the same mistake they often that can believe not deliberate this suspicion reinforced the fact that the mistake extremely profitable one for decrepit economy reliant arms sales really not the gulf war you abhor much was the and the west shortsightedness selling arms hussein which ultimately made the war inevitable right thought both were terrible mathew
alt.atheism	gulf war was death penalty was political atheists mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes looked back this and asked some questions various people and got the following information which had claimed and you pooh poohed the has not sold iraq any arms what about the land mines which have already been mentioned other countries like kuwait information hard prove you are claiming that the sold information prove information hard prove almost certainly the did sell information then that fact classified and you can prove very neat dismiss everything say unless can prove beyond shadow doubt something which you yourself admit can never prove your satisfaction thanks stick squaring circles mathew
alt.atheism	gulf war and peace niks jbrown batman bmd trw com writes the problem with most peace niks they consider those who are not like them bad and unconscionable would not have any argument problem with peace nik they held their ideals and stayed out all conflicts issues especially those dealing with the national defense but they are not willing allow legitimately hold different point view they militate and many times resort violence all the name peace yawn another right wing wasp imagining oppressed minority perhaps camille paglia right after all would not have any argument problem with peace nik they stayed out all conflicts issues bet you wouldn you love but what makes you think that sitting back saying nothing about defense issues and letting people like you make all the decisions anything with their ideals mathew
alt.atheism	strong weak atheism acooper mac macalstr edu turin turambar department utter misery writes did that faq ever got modified define strong atheists not those who assert the nonexistence god but those who assert that they believe the nonexistence god word yes mathew
alt.atheism	who has read rushdie the satanic verses perry dsinc com jim perry writes anyway since seem the only one following this particular line discussion wonder how many the rest the readership have read this book what are your thoughts bought copy the satanic verses when there was talk the british government banning there nothing interests book more than making illegal however still sitting shelf unread perhaps get round soon still got pile lem bulgakov and zamyatin through don find nearly enough time read fact there are far more interesting things than can ever find time for how anyone ever manages bored beyond didn have sleep maybe could manage mathew atheism anti virus software for the mind
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr bnr rashid writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger wrote have already made the clear claim that khomeini advocates views which are contradition with the qur and have given arguments for this this something that can checked anyone sufficiently interested khomeini being dead really can respond but another poster who supports khomeini has responded with what clearly obfuscationist sophistry this should quite clear atheists they are less susceptible religionist modes obfuscationism don mind saying this but the best example obfuscation condemn without having even your most basic facts straight you want some examples back and look your previous posts where you manage get your facts wrong about the fatwa and khomeini supposed infallibility why shouldn mind sounds you are proceeding with just the sort obfuscation you have accused always preceeded statements with understanding that now have made claim clear with regard the issue both the twelve imams and with khomeini supposed claim infalibility after hearing your seemingly more knowledgable claim that khomeini made such claim regarding himself have withdrawn that portion statement regarding that claim however have received such response regarding the infallibility the twelve imams there nothing obfuscationist about claims which are always made clearly have received such clear response regarding the twelve imams but rather abstruse references unusual metaphysical natures and other such opaque concepts often used people camoflage the baselessness their positions particularly matters theology these are just the sorts concepts used christian churches the perverting their religion salaam laikum alaikum wassalam gregg
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr bnr rashid writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger wrote think many reading this group would also benefit knowing how deviant the view articulated above which may not the true view khomeini from the basic principles islam that the non muslim readers this group will see how far from the simple basics islam such views are the face them and they are not contradiction with the basics islam how subtle such issues are and how seems sects exist islam while they are explicitly proscribed the qur discussing here fine shall start new thread called say infallibility islam and move the discussion there think this should illuminating all let make first suggestion when arabic words especially technical ones become use let define them for those especially atheists whom they may not terribly familiar please also note that though did initially refer khomeini heretic for what understood claim rejected you since personal infallibility withdraw this basis for such statement conditionally retain this reference regard khomeini advocacy the thesis the infallibility the called twelve imams which clear conflict with the qur that places the twelve imams category behavior and example higher than that the muhammad that the qur shows that the prophet was clearly fallible well appears given your abstruse theological statment regarding the natures the twelve imams placing them different metaphysical category than the remainder humanity with the possible exception muhammad something which verges the sin association salam laikum alaikum wassalam gregg
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes article fpv horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes deletion point morals are essence personal opinions usually ideally well founded motivated such but nonetheless personal the fact that real large lot people agree some moral question sometimes even for the same reason does not make morals objective makes humans somewhat alike their opinions that moral question which can good for the evolution social species and real large lot nice phrase people agree that there football desk supposed see logical difference between the two perhaps you can explain the difference since you seem see clearly rest deleted that fallacy and not the first time pointed out not fallacy note the supermajority disinterested people agree fundamantal value not doing ethics yet benedikt then what the difference between that and those people agreeing trivial observation for one you have never given set morals people agree upon unlike football further you conveniently ignore here that there are many who would not agree tghe morality something the analogy does not hold have however given example value people agree and explained why people will agree that their freedom valuable have also stated that such value necessary condition for doing objective ethics the assertion above and that what talking about there isn point talking about ethics this can agreed one can expect sufficiently many people agree its being football while you have give the evidence that only vanishing number disagrees with set morals you have give not doing morals ethics can get past values say the only cogent objection freedom example that maybe people aren talking about the same thing when they answer that valuable maybe not and want think about this some especially the implications its being true further the above evidence not proof proof would evolve out testing your theory absolute morals against competing theories garbage that not proof either the above one the arguments you reiterate while you never answer the objections evidence that you are preacher name that fallacy frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	studies book mormon tue apr gmt cfairman leland stanford edu carolyn jean fairman said cjf agrino enkidu mic andres grino brandt asks about mormons cjf although don personally know about independent sudies know cjf few things cjf writes there are some mention about events places historical persons later discovered archeologist cjf one the more amusing things the bom claim that cjf civilization existed north america aroun where the mystical plates cjf were found not only did use steel and other metals but had cjf lots wars very one has ever found any metal swords cjf and traces civilization other than the native americans was talking the head the archeology dept once college and the topic mormon archeology came seems that the mormon church was big giving grants archeologists prove that the native americans are really the lost tribe israel and other such bunk the archeologists would shake their head knowingly while listening them take the grant and off real archeology anyway mccreary edm twisto compaq com were not for laughter there would tao
alt.atheism	science and theories per various threads science and creationism started dabbling into book called christianity and the nature science moreland question that had come from one his comments stated that god not necessarily religious term but could used other scientific terms that give explanation for events theories without being proven scientific fact think got his point can quote the section being vague the examples gave were quarks and continental plates are there explanations science parts theories that are not measurable and themselves can everything quantified measured tested etc mac michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything anybody chesterton
alt.atheism	age reason was who has read rushdie wed apr gmt sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik said this the story kent the archetype finn that lives the bay area and tried purchase thomas paine age reason this man was driving around staceys books inc well cleanlighted place daltons various other places when asked for this book the well educated american book store assistants most placed asked him check out the thriller section then they said that his book has not been published yet but they should receive the book soon some places the assistants bluntly said that they don know such author that not well known living author they don keep copies his books such the life and times america years after the revolution sigh now don feel bad searching for copy bookstores has been habit mine for least two years now spend lot time browsing through bookstores new and and used and not once seen copy now know all pick phone and order the darned thing but come this america and one the founding fathers and one carries his books sure you can find common sense but think that because required reading for most colleges did find one hole the wall bookstore where the owner said that they usually carry one two copies but that they were currently out haven been back since don know was telling the truth not sigh mccreary edm twisto compaq com were not for laughter there would tao
alt.atheism	science and theories article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes the examples gave were quarks and continental plates are there sounds like more the same gods were used describe almost everything the past come understand the underpinnings more and more the less credit god now the not well understood elements least the author includes quarks and tectonic drift guess that better than describing the perceived patterns stars the sky heroes being immortalized the gods kinda sounds like old earth creation seems that life did indeed evolve from common ancestor what caused that initial common ancestor are going hear another debate causeless events explanations science parts theories that are not measurable and themselves can everything quantified measured tested etc mac michael cobb frank doss the above stated words are opinions and not reflect the opinions attitudes policies employer any affilliated organizations
alt.atheism	theism and fanatism was islamic genocide article dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes article tqo ook horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes theism strongly correlated with irrational belief absolutes irrational belief absolutes strongly correlated with fanatism deletion theism correlated with fanaticism have neither said that all fanatism caused theism nor that all theism leads fanatism the point theism increases the chance becoming fanatic one could course argue that would fanatics tend towards theism for example but just have loook the times history when theism was the dominant ideology invalidate that conclusion that that the basic mechanism behind imo the influence stalin for that matter ayn rand invalidates your assumption that theism the factor considered bogus just said that theism not the only factor for fanatism the point that theism factor that your claim now back consider your argument useful the following belief strongly correlated with fanaticism therefore belief factor fanaticism true and utterly useless note this any belief not belief gods tiring say the least have backed read the first statement have read conspicuous its absence any evidence point the latter the fallacy the wrong analogy saying someone believes something hardly information about the person all saying someone theist holds much more information further the correlation between theists and fanatism higher than that between belief all and fanatism because the special features theistic belief truth blatant assertion evidence gullibility blind obedience authority lack scepticism and are all more reliable indicators and the really dangerous people the sources fanaticism are often none these things they are cynical manipulators the gullible who know precisely what they are doing that claim you have support please note that especially the field theism the leaders believe what they say you believe that you incredibly naive you frank dwyer are living dream world wonder there any base discussion left after such statement matter fact think you are ignorant human nature even when one starts with something one does not believe one gets easily fooled into actually believing what one says give you the benefit the doubt prove your statement the onus proof you sunshine what makes you think that theist leaders believe what they say especially when they say one thing and another say one thing closely followed its opposite the practice not restricted theism but there for anyone see almost epidemic this country just for instance harder for camel pass thru the eye needle why the catholic church such wealthy land owner why are there churches the square inch country now some brands theism and more precisely some theists tend fanaticism grant you tar all theists with this brush bigotry not reasoned argument and reads like warm for censorship and restriction religious freedom ever read animal farm that straw man and usually discussions with you one has repeat read what have written above not every theism leads fanatism and not all fanatism caused theism the point there correlation and comes from innate features theism some comes from features which some theism has common with some fanaticism your last statement simply isn implied what you say before because you trying sneak innate features all theism the word you groping for some bogus again not all theism fanatic however the rest already gives backup for the statement about the correlation about fanatism and theism and further the specialty other theistic beliefs allows them switch fanatism easily takes just nifty improvement the theology truth blatant assertion gullibility the way one them shit sherlock why not talk about gullibility instead theism since seems whole lot more relevant the case you have opposed the case you are trying make because there more about theism that the attraction gullible people causing the correlation and the whole discussion started that way the statement that theism meaningfully correlated fanatism which you challenged indeed did recall asked for evidence what the correlation which you speak and say that going forbid religion another your straw men interesting that you have nothing better offer said reads like warm that that because irrational and bogus tirade and has other use than creating nice them split the minds excitable people such are found either side church walls blah blah blah quite well aware that giving everyone their rights protects better from fanatics than the other way round course other people are always fanatics never oneself your wish slur all theists seems pretty fanatical quite nice see that you are actually implying connection between that argument and the rise fanatism far just another your assertions you can define irrational belief rational believe that reason always useful irrational belief belief that not based upon reason the latter has been discussed for long time with charley wingate one point that the beliefs violate reason often and another that process that does not lend itself rational analysis does not contain reliable information well there glaring paradox here argument that reason useful based reason would circular and argument not based reason would irrational which that bogus self reference not circular and since the evaluation usefulness possible within rational systems allowed oval still begging the question however and though that certainly allowed not rational and you claiming rational and all another your assertions proof evidence just claims hey learned from you did good the risk repeating myself and hearing had that before didn hear refutation before back deal with you can use reason demonstrate that reason useful someone who thinks reason crap won buy you see that unusually weak even for you the latter implies that proof depends their opinion somehow who does not accept that there are triangles won accept pythagoras wow that incredible insight don have prove them wrong their opinion possible show that their systems leave out useful information respectively claims unreliable even absurd statements information totally circular and totally useless their wish believe makes them believe things are judges their appeal and not their information makes you feel good when you believe that may good for them but contains zillions possible pitfalls from belief despite contrary evidence the bogus proofs they attempt truth blatant assertion seen many bogus proofs the non existence gods have their existence rational systems the way does not mean that every data has come from logical analysis the point that the evaluation the data does not contradict logic easily follows that such system does not allows evaluate its rational itself yes possible evaluate that rational system that not rational the fallacies that system but since the validity the axioms agreed upon that has little impact the possibility demon ala descartes this just doesn parse sorry far just matter consistency use ratiional arguments show that system consistent that theirs isn the evaluation the nor this predictions does not need rationality does not contradict however your argument silly proving mathematical statements needs mathematics and mathematics are therfore circular anybody else think godel was silly stream consciousness typing what that supposed mean the first part the second statement contains information because you don say what the beliefs are the beliefs are strong theism and strong atheism then your statement not general true the second part your sentence patently false counterexample axiomatic datum does not lend itself rational analysis but assumed contain reliable information regardless what process used obtain been speaking religious systems with contradictory definitions god here axiomatic datum lends itself rational analysis what you say here often refuted fallacy have look the discussion the axiom choice and further one can evaluate axioms larger systems out which they are usually derived exist derived you want that way further one can test the consistency and set axioms what you are trying say that some point people always wind saying this datum reliable for particular reason all example not dreaming nope there evidence for the trick that the choice axiomatic basis system difficult because the possibilities are interwoven one therefore chooses that with the least assumptions with assumptions that are necessary get information out the system anyway like see this alleged evidence one does not need define axioms order define evaluation method for usefulness the foundation laid how one feels all that not how one feels about see you have irrational beliefs but then fanatics never they compared the evidence theists have for their claims the strength their demands makes the whole thing not only irrational but antirational can agree with this until you are specific which theism say that all theism necessarily antirational requires proof which suspect you not have using the traditonal definition gods personal supernatural entities with objective effects this world usually connected morals and the way the world works imo any belief about such gods necessarily irrational that does not mean that people who hold them are principle opposed the exercise intelligence some atheists are also scientists for example they don use theism when doing science wouldn science please note that subjective data lend themselves scientific treatment well they just prohibit formulating them objective statements ergo nothing objective fair enough the affinity fanatism easily seen has true because believe nothing more than work hypothesis however the beliefs say they are more than work hypothesis don understand this can you formalise your argument person believes system becuase sounds nice that does not make true best work hypothesis however the content that true and that more than work hypothesis testing evaluating evidence for against therefore dismissed because already believed says wrong waste time not possible depending the further contents amalekites idolaters protestants are killed this can have interesting effects peculiar definition interesting but sure now show that belief gods entails the further contents which you speak why aren catholic neighbours out killing the protestants for example maybe they don believe maybe the conjunction asserts and jail kill dissenters that important and the belief gods entirely irrelevant certainly seems but then have axe grind here the example with your neighbours fallacy that your neighbours don says little about others and there were times when exactly that happened nope not fallacy just doesn the correlation you wish see and tell when not irrelevant why are such statements about amalekites and idolaters the holy books please note that one could edit them out when they are not relevant anymore because gods don err what does that say about that message excuse the holy books and how come had theists saying genocides ordered god are god the easiest way excuse anything and therefore highly attracting fanatics not mention the effect interpretation these fanatics can have the rest the believers happens again and again and again god neither the easiest way excuse anything nor the only way frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article apr cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes reply frank uucp frank dwyer the problem for the objectivist determine the status moral truths and the method which they can established accept that such judgements are not reports what but only relate what ought see naturalistic fallacy then they cannot proved any facts about the nature the world this can avoided least two ways leaving the good undefined since anyone who claims that they not know what either lying out touch with humanity undeserving reply the good undefined undefinable but you require everyone that they know innately what right you are back subjectivism and begging the question see below defining the good solely terms evaluative terms ditto here evaluative statement implies value judgement the part the person making again incorrect and question begging see below this point the objectivist may talk self evident truths pretty perceptive that prof flew but can deny the subjectivist claim that self evidence the mind the beholder course denying that subject object true dichotomy please explain how this helps don see your argument don see yours seems rest the assertion that everything either subject object there nothing compelling about that dichotomy might just well divide the world into subject object event even seems more sensible causation for example event not subject object furthermore subject object were true dichotomy everything either subject object then that statement self evident truth not then all the mind the beholder according the relativist and hardly compelling add that the fact that the world can quickly shoved its entirety into the subjective category idealist solipsist argument and that have this perfectly good alternate set categories subject object event which can reduced subject object quality without any logical difficulty and why yes guess denying that self evident truths are all the mind the beholder not what left the claim that some moral judgements are true all nothing then moral judgements are true this thing that commonly referred nihilism entails that science value irrepective the fact that some people find useful how anyone arrives relativism subjectivism from this argument beats this makes sense either flew arguing that this where the objectivist winds not the subjectivist furthermore the nihilists believed nothing except science materialism revolution and the people referring ethical nihilism the subjectivist may well feel that all that remains that there are some moral judgements with which would wish associate himself hold moral opinion suggests not know something true but have preferences regarding human activity and those preferences should include terrorism that moral opinion not true likewise the preferences should include noterrorism that moral opinion not true why should one choose set preferences which include terrorisim over one which includes noterrorism reason this patently absurd and also not the position the subjectivist has been pointed out you already others ditch the strawman already and see reply mike cobb root message the thread societal basis for morality responded over there btw don intend this strawman but something logically entailed relativism really any ethical system where values are assumed unreal different say relativists say than relativism implies frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	free moral agency article minster york cjhs minster york writes are you saying that their was physical adam and eve and that all humans are direct decendents only these two human beings then who were cain and able wives couldn their sisters because didn have daughters were they non humans genesis and the days adam after begat seth were eight hundred years and begat sons and daughters felicitations chris stuart yeah but these were not the wives the wives came from nod apparently land being developed another set gods brian
alt.atheism	room for metaphor can and take religious writings metaphor for life this with all sorts fiction from beowolf deep space nine the idea not limit yourself one book screen out the good stuff from what you read and remember that all just story you sound buddist brian
alt.atheism	the universe and black holes was years article apr iastate edu iastate edu warren vonroeschlaub wrote article inn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes well suppose probe emitting radiation constant frequency was sent towards black hole got closer the event horizon the red shift would keep increasing the period would get longer and longer but would never stop observer would not observe the probe actually reaching the event horizon the detected energy from the probe would keep decreasing but wouldn vanish exp never quite reaches zero that kind what meant more precise given any observer any single position outside the event horizon would that observer ever any way able detect the probe having crossed the event horizon yes unless the observer rest with respect the singularity infinite distance away but observer close approach the will see the particle finite time peter don forget sing they say there heaven for those who will wait some say better but say ain rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young
alt.atheism	asimov stamp battin cyclops iucf indiana edu laurence gene battin writes apart from the suggestion that appeared the letters column skeptical inquirer recently has there been any further mention about possible asimov commemorative stamp this idea hasn been followed does anyone know what needs done get this happen think that its great idea should start petition something sure all the religious types would get snit due asimov atheism have any atheists stamps now mark schnitzius schnitzi eola ucf edu university central florida
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics article timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes nah will encourage people learn about atheism see how little atheists have their sleeves whatever might have suspected actually quite riddle this god exist why earth should grovel why earth should give damm all what evidence you have that such creature exist deserves anything beyond mild admiration sheer hatred for what they have done the past whichever god you care pick that assuming any records their actions are correct religon offers bliss bubble self contained reality which seperate from the physical world any belief system can leave you such state and can drugs god are not requirement only you remove such useless tappestry can you build set morals build society upon that keep exterminating those who don believe converting them eric new viruses right life virus won allow you delete file regardless how old you attempt erase file requires you first see counselor about possible alternatives
alt.atheism	some thoughts article rekj darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes james felder spbach lerc nasa gov wrote logic alert argument from incredulity just because hard for you believe this doesn mean that isn true liars can very pursuasive just look koresh that you yourself cite this whole basis great many here rejecting the christian account things the words madalyn murrey hair face folks just silly why okay disbelieve because your incredulity you admit that fallacy bill suppose for the same reason that you not believe all the gods why should any any different use the same arguments dismiss koresh god tell then why you not believe that koresh the son god logic equally possible that koresh jesus reborn adda wainwright does dim atal llanw eczcaw mips nott mae sig werth
alt.atheism	death penalty was political atheists article rlyz darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes this fascinating atheists argue for abortion prove atheist doesn mean for against abortion defend homosexuality means population control obvious effect homosexuality non procreation that unlike your statement fact please prove that homosexuality defended means population control being atheist causes you hold these beliefs defend homosexuality because what people with their bodies none business defend the equal rights all humans you insist that the only values are biological define values prove your statement something contardictory cannot exist which this case means atheists suppose prove your statement electrons are waves electrons are particles believe both have physical proof both have proof god only ancient book that not indicative the existence being with omnipotence omnipresence and your own argument christians don exist would like understand how atheist can object war excellent means controlling population growth capital punishment sorry but the logic escapes and why just capital punishment what being questioned here the propriety killing punishment what the basis the ecomplaint first all your earlier statements have absolutely nothing with your question why did you post them show that athiests besides not existing your view are more humane than christians other religions secondly very much for the control population growth the logic that you cannot grasp indicates ignorance contraception but course this outlawed sometimes literally religion since can create more followers will die bill adda wainwright does dim atal llanw eczcaw mips nott mae sig werth
alt.atheism	you will all hell jsn jeremy scott noonan
alt.atheism	you will all hell article apr ncsu edu aiken news ncsu edu wayne nmi aiken writes jsn psuvm psu edu wrote you blashephemers you will all hell for not believing god prepared for your eternal damnation did someone leave their terminal unattended again holy temple mass slack ncsu edu used underwear consumption legal tender box bbs countries raleigh warning hoard pennies bob probably not the jesus freak post probably jsn psuvm penn state just loaded the hilt with bible bangers use there vomit and was the reason left they even had group try stop playing rock music the dining halls one year cuz they deemed satanic kampus krusade for khrist people run the damn place for the most part except the liberal arts departments they are the safe havens wdb rock music the dining
alt.atheism	some thoughts article therose pdx com alan olsen fidonet org alan olsen writes from alan olsen fidonet org alan olsen subject some thoughts date wed apr from house helios usq edu ron house newsgroups alt atheism organization university southern queensland bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first want start right out and say that christian know shouldn get involved but bit deleted the book says that jesus was either liar was crazy modern day koresh was actually who said was rest rant deleted this standard argument for fundies can you spot the falicy the statement arguing from the assumption that jesus actually existed far they have not been able offer real proof that existance just thought necessary help defend the point that jesus existed guys jesus existed didnt then you have say that socrates didnt exist cuz like jesus has nothing from his hands that have survived only plato and others record his existance many others record jesus existance including the babylonian talmud sorry guys the argument that jesus may not have existed dead point now did whether was god whether there god completely different story however most them try using the very flawed writings josh mcdowell and others prove but those writers use very flawed sources they are real sources all some are not when will they ever learn real research instead believing the drivel sold the christian bookstores righto dan try this one with your cornflakes the book says that muhammad was either liar was crazy modern day mad mahdi was actually who said was some reasons why wouldn liar are follows who would die for lie wouldn people able tell was liar people gathered around him and kept doing many gathered from hearing seeing how his son law made the sun stand still call fool but believe did make the sun stand still niether was lunatic would more than entire nation drawn someone who was crazy very doubtful fact rediculous for example anyone who drawn the mad mahdi obviously fool logical people see this right away therefore since wasn liar lunatic must have been the real thing nice rebutal alan
alt.atheism	christian morality article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes the fact god could cause you believe anything wants you but think about for minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you because they wanted love you there difference between believing the existence entity and loving that entity god could show directly that exists and still have free choice about whether love him not why doesn kevin anthoney kax nott don believe anything you read sig files
alt.atheism	genocide caused theism evidence benedikt roseneau article horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes the information that invariant under your child being son daughter and singing about santa claus wasn your argument that there has more more than what more than assume which what exactly most the people debate disagree with premises hardly debate otherwise your favorite point that sense there has been challenged more than once when did you said good question and did not address addressed your caricature not favourite point needless say length previous outing and currently discussing with eric rescorla there little point responding the same points everywhere best give everyone the courtesy reply you still repeat that point curious since believe that was the first time ever made not that repetition would imply much more than your seeming inability understand you ask the same question give you the same answer especially when this case know the answer true best give everyone the courtesy reply but everyone making the same points and pushed for time then try respond what believe are the strongest formulations those points that doesn include your post tough this usenet and life tough all over since there great deal responses this isn always feasible best honestly answer questions put you drop out debates with some posters and continue with others you appear with the same issue every months and start the dicussion the beginning again only debated this issue twice and occasionally the first was response simon clippingdale positive assertion that disagreement about moral values inexorably acknowledges that morals are relative doesn now simon has dropped out the debate for some time take that mean that either busy bored with the topic certainly not accuse him dishonesty you can always understand what you say neither can understand you all the time usually one asks what the other side means usually one does usually you clear but sometimes you aren and ask you what you mean other times you seem get extremely uptight and feel that debating against line noise sometimes get tired and sometimes have other things rather again this usenet and life tough all over you going have deal with you starting get personally insulting may not even put your name the hat future that supposed threat that simple statement and assertion that not answerable those who offer baseless insults for example those who accuse lying about personal beliefs while also complaining that don answer their questions like that you what you sense evidence for the sensed there only everything would easy what almost everyone senses evidence for the sensed there because all intents and purposes there had that argument for one your claim that everyone senses not founded and you have been asked give evidence for often and then the correct statement would reason assume that there unless evidence against has been found have problem with the second statement have provided argument that almost everyone senses that freedom valuable the only cogent objection this came from jon livesey and was offered some other people too essentially that people disagree about fuzzy concepts such freedom good point and thinking about your trick say feel not right and many know therefore absolutely right neglects the possibility that these people consider right effect the same process restricting the claim its absoluteness those who have been subject that process other words refutes you make the ontological claim you have prove nonsense trick say feel that better than and does almost any disinterested person ask best evidence therefore that really better than subject the assumption that can establish our mutual satisfaction what mean and and that the resulting system values self consistent now get this really better idealisation fictional model the same sense that real material existence fictional model may may not correspond something true nonetheless useful assumption far more useful than the equally assumed relativist trick wit feel that better than and does almost any disinterested person ask however even one person disagrees that better than even one person dissents from mutually agreed definitions and then the case that better than for that person and nothing more can said say this useless because inexorably implies that supermajority seeking maximise cannot morally take action against someone seeking maximise terrorist that would claim that supermajority carefully considered morality would better than the terrorist which would course true but for ethical relativist claim that ethical relativism implies anything else simply weasel words and example compartmentalisation rival anything the world religion for similar argument sense morality subjective does not hurt things that are considered objectively wrong others you mean that you things that some others consider objectively wrong and turns out not the case for you course this possible neither evidence for subjectivism nor evidence against objectivism except sometimes pragmatic sense serves counterexample for that everything that subject judgements absolute and long you don provide evidence for that there something universally agreed upon there reason believe your hypothesis done this freedom with the proviso that still have answer jon objection that fuzzy concepts like freedom have objective meaning further order make morality absolute universal objective you would have show that independent humans the attributes above look quite misleading not really what evidence there that anything exists independently humans you hard pressed find any that isn logically equivalent when applied values analogous set premises would premise some people believe that objectively speaking the shortest route from house bar through the main entrance the estate and down the malahide road premise checked out and found that the shortest route from which much closer you would never deduce from these that there shortest route from house bar yet that seemingly how you derive your relativist claim using premises which are logically different morals are matter belief far the people still believe that the shortest way through the main entrance agreement belief here and order have analogy you would have show that there shortest way and that there method convince everyone that the shortest way indeed other words your analogy works only when one assumes that your premises are right the first place not fallacy and this were argument for objectivism you right isn though demonstration that the argument you gave neither argument against objectivism nor argument for relativism your gimmick assume the first place that values aren real and use this prove that values aren real other words you beg the question against frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	gulf war and peace niks article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article apr bmerh bnr dgraham bmers bnr douglas graham writes actually rather like your idea perhaps the rest the world should have bombed maybe missiled washington when the invaded nicaragua grenada panama vietnam mexico hawaii any number other places wait minute doug know you are better informed than that the has never invaded nicaragua far know liberated grenada liberate the way invader describes invasion including not mistaken the iraqi liberation kuwait never invaded nicaragua only with more word games can you say send the marines you mean the word invaded some sort military action where cross someone border you are right out but normally invaded carries connotation attacking autonomous nation some nation invades the virgin islands would they invading the virgin islands the from this point view your score falls out mexico panama good word games you let the aggressor pick the words there scarcely ever been reprehensible military action what peace nik that somebody who doesn masturbate over guns ammo what supposed bad peace nik someone who believes peace all costs other words person who would have supported giving hitler not only austria and czechoslakia but poland too could have averted the war and one who would allow hitler wipe all all jews slavs and political dissidents areas controlled long left the rest alone that convenient technique much seen alt atheism define those who disagree with you according straw man extreme that matches virtually nobody supposed bad peace nik you ask well depends what your values are you value life over liberty peace over freedom then guess not but liberty and freedom mean more you than life itself you rather die fighting for liberty than live under tyrant heel then yes bad peace nik very noble and patriotic sure the fine young americans who carpet bombed iraqi infantry positions from over the horizon destroyed iraq sewer and water infrastructure from the safety the sky further who bulldozed other iraqi infantry into their trenches more importantly the commanders who ordered them were just thrilled risking death not risking much the defense the liberty well wealthy kuwaitis can have those oil fields under tyrant heel that tyrant antagonistic interests the problem with most peace niks they consider those who are not like them bad and unconscionable would not have any argument problem with peace nik they held their ideals and stayed out all conflicts issues especially those dealing with the national defense but they are not willing allow legitimately hold different point view having pigeon holed peace niks this context people who disagree with about the conduct the gulf war into peace all cost hitler supporting genocide abetting wimps you can now express righteous indignation when they refuse fit this mold and question the conduct the war legitimate terms how dare they they militate and many times resort violence all the name peace what rank hypocrisy yes hypocrisy indeed those violent peace niks care list example here all stop warmongers who are willing stand and defend our freedoms against tyrants and who realize that requires strong national defense wow instant nostalgia course peace nik itself cold war derogatory term equating those who promote pacifism with godless pinko communists yes indeed felt freedoms mightily threatened iraq jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality hfj horus mchp sni frank uucp writes deletia case anybody hadn noticed frank and are debating objective morality and seemingly hitting semantics secondly how can refute your definition can only point its logical implications and say that they seem contradict the usage the word objective other areas indeed your definition objective oxymoron for all have quibble with that belief other than that useless and that objective perfectly good word may that being non native english speaker misunderstood your usage objective and tried debate something you don assert apologies loss imagine what you really mean though how many ages can the universe have and still internally self consistent amazed was more than one how many different moral systems can different members society have indeed single individuals some cases and humanity still stick together begging the question people can have many opinions about the age the universe and humanity can still stick together you are saying that the universe has real age independent beliefs about why wrong point the age the universe has direct effect humanity sticking power the way the moral system society can have saying the universe has real age because see evidence for cosmology astronomy and say this age independent people opinions because know different people have lot different opinions the matter yet empirical tests consistently seem give roughly the same results the age the universe like most scientific facts can emirically verified through means that give the same result matter who performs the testing albeit there are error bars that may the largish side this assumes that the universe has real age any kind reality which doesn depend what think can see how does that put creationist the task performing the tests and calculations see makes blatant errors measuring calculating and the result the test will the same why should extreme biblical creationist give rat ass about the means which you speak because logically consistent empirical tests contradict their opinion those tests were just opinion then their own tests which would then their opinion would contradict mine even conducted said tests identical manner they don which take showing these tests have some validity beyond our opinion them heard way verify morality consistent way much less compute the errors the measurement care enlighten the same true pain but painkillers exist and can predicted work with some accuracy better than random guess map the activity nerves and neural activity you mean physical pain you have sharp point give you that but you still haven given way quantify morality wrote elsewhere that morality should hypotheses about observed value agree hypotheses however can change hold that there ultimate hypothesis morality towards which these changes could gravitate but that they could changed any way imaginable producing different results suitable for different tasks purposes moral system makes prediction will better that can tested better and worse are almost always defined the context moral system your prediction will always correct within that moral system what you need now objective definition good and bad wish you luck people ideas about the age object are not objective you can have any idea you like and can stop you universae and their ages another ballgame they are what they are and you dislike some detail them that problem with your opinion them sure assume objective reality and you get statements like this isn that what you doing when assuming objectively real morality besides what exactly provably wrong with statement claim that morality opinion ours and such subjective and individual wrong then some more less objectively real thing exists which you label objective morality can you back this positive claim existence can you back your positive claim above that because assumption make the same assumption about values the basis that there logical difference between the two and the empirical basis the two precisely the same claiming there objective morality suddenly positive claim besides think can lend some credence claim ponder different individuals both fully functional human beings and members society but yet with wildly different moral codes morality was objective least one should way off base but yet hir incorrect morality seems function fine how come for producing these individuals might easiest pick them from different societies say islamic one and some polynesian matrilineal system for example such still exist deletia testing for footballs desks now take look morality see anything please inform which way look and why look that particular way opposed some other get drift just look are you claiming never know what good means one thing good under some circumstances because wish achieve some goal for some reason other times wish something else and that thing longer clearly good all some things are hard make good because seldom ever wish achieve the sort goal mass murder would lead one into still the aztecs were doing fine until the spaniards wiped them out almost always know what good means sometimes even know why never claim this good thereby fixed stone immutable that simple matter proving the track record the scientific method think great and should applied values may completely wrong but that what conclude result quite amount thought yes too and tried thing two down that line doesn look good for objective values all disclaimer great young and insane
alt.atheism	asimov stamp article schnitzi eustis schnitzi eustis ucf edu mark schnitzius writes battin cyclops iucf indiana edu laurence gene battin writes apart from the suggestion that appeared the letters column skeptical inquirer recently has there been any further mention about possible asimov commemorative stamp this idea hasn been followed does anyone know what needs done get this happen think that its great idea should start petition something sure all the religious types would get snit due asimov atheism have any atheists stamps now more the point how long are atheists going insulted the disgraceful addition religious blah blah our money and out pledge what big noisy and has operation rescue
alt.atheism	mottos replace dog trust andrew hilmer hilmera storm orst edu wrote the risk beginning cascade start with possibly cheesy good uhmericun our shield freedom considering what our government has been doing for the past years perhaps this would more appropriate debt holy temple mass slack ncsu edu used underwear consumption legal tender box bbs countries raleigh warning hoard pennies bob
alt.atheism	islamic genocide article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article ubl horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes noting that particular society this case the mainland has few religously motivated murders and few murders any kind says very little about whether inter religion murders elsewhere are religiously motivated but allows one conclude that there nothing inherent all religion for that matter catholicism and protestantism that motivates one kill motivates allows the christian bible says that one may kill under certain circumstances fact instructs one kill under certain circumstances say the majority people have moral system that instructs them kill under certain circumstances get your distinction between motivate and allow and agree that flavour theism allows atoricities then that indictment that theism but rather depends what the certain circumstances are when you talk about christianity islam then least your claims can understood when people general statement about theism that falls apart one could believe god which instructs one utterly harmless for part conclude that something else required also happen believe that that something else will work less well without religion any easy them will and what does religion supply not easy them not necessarily love thy neighbour does not supply them demolishes and definition religion broader than definition theism have explained insisting that even the murder four labourers chosen because they were catholics and who had nothing with the ira protestant extremists not religously motivated think what you are saying that you simply will not accept any murder being religiously motivated what about that guy who cut off someone head because believed was the devil incarnate that was religously motivated what about the protestant extremists who killed four catholic labourers that wasn religiously motivated not opinion they were doing because some obscure point theology then yes but since all protestants don this nor they elect extremists for them just too broad too say religion did this saying that the causes are far more complex than that take away the religious element and you still have the powerful motives revenge and misguided patriotism you know when most catholics and protestants worldwide say stop the killing one might listen that especially when you claim not read minds also the murders ensuing from the fatwa rushdie the inquisitions and the many religous wars what special about these exceptions isn this all just grab bag hoc excuses for not considering some other murders religiously motivated what the general principle behind all this the general principle that fairly clear least that religion the primary motivator enabler whatever these not nearly obvious what going when one looks apart from violence course not abstract argument northern irish protestants say don want absorbed into officially catholic country now what are supposed are supposed reply that only what you think you don want dwyer assures that matter what you say you want you really want something else you think the unionists wouldn mind being absorbed into non catholic country other than the course terrible thing lose mind maybe the word country there for more than just kicks certainly don believe that the unionists are for god think they wish maintain their position privilege still listening what they say and you are still telling your version what they think you read minds and don you speculated motives often enough and you don take statements own beliefs face value therefore your claim not read minds has credibility with sorry also note that you fail answer question just looks very much like you have axe grind especially you are indeed ignoring what most protestants say which stop the killing the people you refer are properly described unionists not protestants for their position privilege what that not religion based based politics bigotry and heartless extremism none these things are synonymous with religion though there certainly some overlap frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	asimov stamp article schnitzi eustis schnitzi eustis ucf edu mark schnitzius writes sure all the religious types would get snit due asimov atheism have any atheists stamps now due discussion this group some time ago the theists would more likely take asimov quote out context and paint him the biggest bible thumpin god fearin atheist hatin christian you ever laid eyes right there with einstein bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	more best rapture october what case you miss the rapture stay calm and not panic your natural reaction once you realize what has just occurred panic but absolutely useless now you had wanted get right with god before the rapture you could have but you chose wait now your only chance stay this earth and endure the end the tribulation but that shall endure unto the end the same shall saved matthew realize you are now living during the great tribulation the great tribulation seven year period starting from the time the rapture until christ second coming also know the time jacob israel trouble jere and daniel seventieth week dan this period will unparalleled trouble and horror iii gather many bibles you can and hide them soon after the antichrist becomes the leader the european community the revived roman empire bibles will confiscated and owning bible will tantamount treason the bible however will your most valuable possession during the tribulation read the bible like you have never read before your life since all your bibles may confiscated even you are careful imperative that you read the word until you memorize whole passages and can quote them especially important read daniel luke matthew revelation and amos for these books describe the events you can expect unfold before you pray like you have never prayed before your life pray until the power god comes strongly upon you pray and pray and pray only reading the word and praying will you gain the spiritual strength able withstand the torture you may have endure for the sake christ not take the mark any cost even fit means you and your loved ones die martyrs after the antichrist becomes the leader the european community will institute world economic system designed that you cannot buy sell eat unless you take his mark the number his name money will useless and causes all both small and great rich and poor free and slave receive mark their right hand their foreheads and that one may buy sell except one who has the mark the name the beast the number his name here wisdom let him who has understanding calculate the number the beast for the number man his number revelation the antichrist will implement the greatest slaughter all humanity think the various ways people have been tortured and killed the past such the holocaust maybe the crusades you cannot even imagine the horror that will take place under the antichrist rule will much worse than anything history matt saw under the altar the souls those who had been slain for the word god and for the testimony which they held and white robe was given each them and was said them that they should rest little while longer until both the number the fellow servants and their brethren who would killed they were was completed revelation his targets will jews and christians who not worship his image take the mark their forehead right hadn and saw the souls those who had been beheaded for their witness jesus and for the word god who had not worshiped the beast his image and had not received his mark their foreheads the hands revelation will use every form torture and humiliation order force you renounce christ nor will hesitate use your loved ones against you even your children torturing and killing them front you that you will tempted take the mark you take the mark worship the antichrist his image however you will consigned the second death which the lake fire sung about eloquently johnny cash you cannot redeemed better endure torture for short while and gain eternal life then sic endure eternal torment the ring lake fire anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark his forehead his hand himself shall also drink the wine the wrath god which poured out full strength into the cup his indignation sic shall tormented with fire and brimstone the presence the holy angels and the presence the lamb revelation and probably the presence season ticket holders special hats given the first the stadium vii set plan motion for survival although you may not able hide from the antichrist government until the end the tribulation all the time you gain hiding important for your spiritual growth and strengthening since only those who are extremely strong christ can suffer and die for his sake the first thing move out the city and into rural mountainous area for the antichrist control will come last the least populated areas take good radio with you that you can stay attuned events and discern the time schedule the tribulation you can see the weather map heavy currents tribulation will sweep into our area daybreak expect delays outbound and perhaps school closings store water and food because you will not able purchase anything without the mark water lakes and streams will polluted radioactive waste from nuclear warfare and will eventually turn into blood get good water filter bring different types clothing for all seasons well flashlights batteries generators and first aid supplies short learn how survive and live off the land the pioneers did viii trust one there will secret agents everywhere spying for the antichrist government the lookout perot supporters take note watch for the antichrist important realize who the antichrist and what for will deceive many into thinking that great world leader who will bring peace and prosperity world hungry for can infer from daniel certain characteristics this man popular during the first three and half years the tribulation will dominate the airwaves will physically appealing highly intelligent with christ like charisma and personality international politician military tactician and economic expert his word will peace will make treaty with the jews which will break after three and half years will have such supernatural power that mortal wound his head will healed even the very elect will deceived you not pray and read the bible you too will deceived dominate the airwaves perhaps howard stern rush limbaugh the antichrist will have companion the false prohphet sic who will make image the likeness the antichrist and cause speak all who refuse worhsip sic the image will killed the final three and half years will absolutely insane with demonized spirits everywhere not give hope the seven years tribulation will end with the triumphant return christ the antichrist will defeated steadfast and endure and you will rewarded greatly heaven start reading the bible and praying fervently now the salvation your sould depends upon determine that come what may you will not take the mark worship the antichrist you still have chance saved remain saved but this time you will have faithful unto death may god find you ready the hour his glorious return mike cluff christianity stupid ubvms mike luick ubvms give negativland language perception laboratory bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	are atoms real article news rich bnr bcash crchh nosubdomain nodomain brian cash writes petri and mathew your discusion the reality atoms interesting but would seem that you are verging the question anything real that since observation not reliable how can say that anything real don think this was the intention the original question since you now define out the word real that nothing can meet its criteria just thought brian rainbows and shadows are real they are not objects they are phenomenon interesting question would atoms are objects classical phenomenon neo quantum what been following this train talk and the question dismissing atoms being some sense not real leaves uneasy seems implied that obseve only the effects and therefore the underlying thing not necessarily real the tree outside window this category observe the light which bounces off not the tree itself the observation indirect but more than observations have made atoms also what about observations and experiments that have been routinely done with individual atoms thinking particular atom trapping experiments and tests fundamental quantum mechanics such the quantum zeno effect where individual atom studied for long period time some the attempts quantum mechanical arguments were not very satisfying either one has carefull about making such arguments without solid technical background the field what read seemed little confused quite red herring anyway the purpose public debate make the audience think worked after doing willing try defend the following assertion anyone cares atoms are real trees and are real the ussual every day sense the word real
alt.atheism	free moral agency article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes article voinnr lynx unm edu cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes the myth which refer the convoluted counterfeit athiests have created make religion appear absurd you don need any counterfeit athiest myth make religion appear absurd you need only read any friendly christian bill conner posts jim halat halat bear com bear stearns whatever doesn kill you will only serve annoy you nyc speak only for myself
alt.atheism	some thoughts article apr mks com mike mks com mike brookbank writes article apr mac macalstr edu acooper mac macalstr edu writes article bissda saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes die for lie wouldn people able tell was liar light yesterday events waco texas guess the answer your questions are very obvious you think waco just one example think back jonestown where more than people died for lie deletions correction think was also contrary earlier belief now widely accepted that not all committed suicide but were actually killed the end they did die for lie but some not out conviction alone thought try make this point clear disclaimer the opinions expressed this posting are mine solely and not represent employer any way karner aix technical support karner austin vnet ibm com
alt.atheism	islam and sufism was move the islam discussions short reply kent sandvik post remarking how strange that somehow sufism related islam him they seem quite different one really understands islam not strange that sufism associated with fact sufism general seen the inner dimension islam one the roots the word islam submission islam denotes submission god sufism the most complete submission god imaginable annihilating oneself god not sufi the sufi path but have read lot and recently have been discussing number things with others who are the sufi path fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism apr nott eczcaw mips nott wainwright writes article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes great respect love for particular person does not equal form theism fred rice darice yoyo monash edu hmm what about jesus sure person could have great respect for jesus and yet atheist having great respect for jesus does not necessarily mean that one has follow the christian muslim interpretation his life fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	atheism survey replied this query via mail but think there are some issues that are worth discussing public mta mtabbott unix amherst edu wrote doing research atheism part which involves field research here the net the following survey directed towards all readers this group intended get data about the basis atheistic belief would recommend you take look your dictionary alt atheism faq files notice that atheism not belief system and what common all atheists not belief but lack belief deities cannot imagine how anyone could research atheism without paying careful attention this issue first all tried structure questions that can answered variety ways with varying amounts detail possible give succinct answers most everything but there enough here keep most you typing for hours sure imho this poor method any real survey although sure the replies might keep you amused for hours also tend use lot anthropological buzzwords like belief system although know some you might contend that you don have any beliefs but are skeptical towards everything understand but you know what mean think such buzzwords abbreviations for the rather unweildy phrases required get the precise idea across not know what you mean you are surveying our individual philosophies fine but that not strictly atheism atheism not just another godless version the theistic explanations for life the universe and everything not belief system and could hardly called philosophical system once more atheism characterised lack belief deities not twist the meaning assume that have some kind philosophy all agree some comments your questions what contact with other atheists have you had before and after and during your conversion atheism certainly your involvement with alt atheism counts how have net discussions affected your beliefs would also like hear more about this have been able convert anyone are you convinced that your beliefs were acquired through wholly rational means proofs the non existence god etc was perhaps least part through other means alienation from mainstream religion etc this question contains contradiction terms beliefs cannot acquired rationally they could they would not beliefs you also seem have rather strange ideas how people become atheists those who are alienated from religion not necessarily become atheists they just think very little about religion seems requires considerable time honest inquiry find out that religions are actually intellectually dishonest virtual realities those who have never had beliefs will certainly find this question quite odd how can lack belief acquired when did acquire lack belief the easter bunny did believe santa though what extent you feel you understand the universe through your beliefs what phenomena the universe and human existence anything from physical phenomena the problem the existence evil human affairs you feel are adequately dealt with your beliefs and where are they lacking explanatory method this question does not make any sense since atheism does not deal with these issues not worldview philosophy belief system sigh why haven seen good well thought survey the usenet for three years and what the point doing surveys the net anyway just abstract some opinions petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics the truth pihatie finou oulu physics the rule oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu chemistry the game
alt.atheism	theism and fanatism was islamic genocide article dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes article horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes theism strongly correlated with irrational belief absolutes irrational belief absolutes strongly correlated with fanatism deletion theism correlated with fanaticism have neither said that all fanatism caused theism nor that all theism leads fanatism the point theism increases the chance becoming fanatic one could course argue that would fanatics tend towards theism for example but just have loook the times history when theism was the dominant ideology invalidate that conclusion that that the basic mechanism behind imo the influence stalin for that matter ayn rand invalidates your assumption that theism the factor considered bogus just said that theism not the only factor for fanatism the point that theism factor that your claim now back consider your argument useful the following belief strongly correlated with fanaticism therefore belief factor fanaticism true and utterly useless note this any belief not belief gods gullibility blind obedience authority lack scepticism and are all more reliable indicators and the really dangerous people the sources fanaticism are often none these things they are cynical manipulators the gullible who know precisely what they are doing that claim you have support please note that especially the field theism the leaders believe what they say you believe that you incredibly naive now some brands theism and more precisely some theists tend fanaticism grant you tar all theists with this brush bigotry not reasoned argument and reads like warm for censorship and restriction religious freedom ever read animal farm that straw man and usually discussions with you one has repeat read what have written above not every theism leads fanatism and not all fanatism caused theism the point there correlation and comes from innate features theism some comes from features which some theism has common with some fanaticism your last statement simply isn implied what you say before because you trying sneak innate features all theism the word you groping for some gullibility the way one them shit sherlock why not talk about gullibility instead theism since seems whole lot more relevant the case you have opposed the case you are trying make and say that going forbid religion another your straw men interesting that you have nothing better offer said reads like warm that that because irrational and bogus tirade and has other use than creating nice them split the minds excitable people such are found either side church walls define irrational belief rational believe that reason always useful irrational belief belief that not based upon reason the latter has been discussed for long time with charley wingate one point that the beliefs violate reason often and another that process that does not lend itself rational analysis does not contain reliable information well there glaring paradox here argument that reason useful based reason would circular and argument not based reason would irrational which that bogus self reference not circular and since the evaluation usefulness possible within rational systems allowed oval still begging the question however and though that certainly allowed not rational and you claiming rational and all the risk repeating myself and hearing had that before didn hear refutation before back deal with you can use reason demonstrate that reason useful someone who thinks reason crap won buy you see your argument silly proving mathematical statements needs mathematics and mathematics are therfore circular anybody else think godel was silly the first part the second statement contains information because you don say what the beliefs are the beliefs are strong theism and strong atheism then your statement not general true the second part your sentence patently false counterexample axiomatic datum does not lend itself rational analysis but assumed contain reliable information regardless what process used obtain been speaking religious systems with contradictory definitions god here axiomatic datum lends itself rational analysis what you say here often refuted fallacy have look the discussion the axiom choice and further one can evaluate axioms larger systems out which they are usually derived exist derived you want that way further one can test the consistency and set axioms what you are trying say that some point people always wind saying this datum reliable for particular reason all example not dreaming compared the evidence theists have for their claims the strength their demands makes the whole thing not only irrational but antirational can agree with this until you are specific which theism say that all theism necessarily antirational requires proof which suspect you not have using the traditonal definition gods personal supernatural entities with objective effects this world usually connected morals and the way the world works imo any belief about such gods necessarily irrational that does not mean that people who hold them are principle opposed the exercise intelligence some atheists are also scientists for example the affinity fanatism easily seen has true because believe nothing more than work hypothesis however the beliefs say they are more than work hypothesis don understand this can you formalise your argument person believes system becuase sounds nice that does not make true best work hypothesis however the content that true and that more than work hypothesis testing evaluating evidence for against therefore dismissed because already believed says wrong waste time not possible depending the further contents amalekites idolaters protestants are killed this can have interesting effects peculiar definition interesting but sure now show that belief gods entails the further contents which you speak why aren catholic neighbours out killing the protestants for example maybe they don believe maybe the conjunction asserts and jail kill dissenters that important and the belief gods entirely irrelevant certainly seems but then have axe grind here frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	christian morality article ousrvr oulu kempmp phoenix oulu petri pihko writes dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote love god just much she loves she wants seduce she know what but she did you would probably consider rape simple logic arguments are folly you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools those who tried trick him with logic our ability reason just spec creation yet some think the ultimate you rely simply your reason then you will never know more than you now your argument the type you know once you try yet there are many atheists who have sincerely tried and believed for many years but were eventually honest enough admit that they had lived virtual reality obviously there are many christians who have tried and believe learn you must accept that which you don know what does this mean learn you must accept that you don know something right but learn you must accept something don know why this not the way prefer learn unwise merely swallow everything you read suppose write book telling how the great invisible pink unicorn has helped daily problems would you accept this since you can know whether true not one asks you swallow everything fact jesus warns against but let ask you question you beleive what you learn history class for that matter anything school mean just what other people have told you and you don want swallow what others say right the life death and resurection christ documented historical fact much anything else you learn how you choose what believe and what not could argue that george washington myth never lived because don have any proof except what told however all the major events the life jesus christ were fortold hundreds years before him neat trick there way get into sceptical heart you can not say you have given sincere effort with the attitude you seem have you must trust not just church and participate activities were you ever willing die for what you believed
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq constructing logical argument here suggestion for the logical argument faq don think covered though the fallacy probably has better name than the one used how about mathew inconsistency and counterexample this occurs when one party points out that some source information takes stand which inconsistent with there are two variations which either mutually agreed premise else stand elsewhere from the same source the second party fallaciously responds saying see the source really does say right here this reply does not refute the allegation inconsistency because does not show that the source only says example the first type the koran says unbelievers should treated these ways can both agree these are immoral the koran clearly says this other passage that unbelievers are not treated that way example the second type there are two biblical creation stories you wrong since the bible clearly describes the creation description the first day after christmas truelove served leftover turkey the second day after christmas truelove served turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey days deleted flaming turkey wings pizza hut commercial and tlu gic bait ken arromdee arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu
alt.atheism	religion cause was islamic authority over women bill conner bil okcforum osrhe edu writes stuff deleted don have make outrageous claims about religion affecting and effecting history for the purpsoe all have point out that many claims made here are wrong and nothing validate atheism bill you seem have erroneously assumed that this board has its sole purpose the validation atheism doesn this board used discuss atheism philosophy share posters experiences regarding atheism debunk various theisms and theism whole share resources relating atheism and even socialize with others with similar views and course with the number theists who come here preach also used argue the case for atheism time have made any statement that religion was the sole cause anything what have done point out that those who make that kind claim are mistaken usually deliberately you want accuse people lying please directly the phrase deliberately mistaken rather oxymoronic credit religion with the awesome power dominate history misunderstand human nature the function religion and course history believe that those who distort history this way know exaclty what they doing and only for affect the two forms theism most often discussed here these days are christianity and islam both these claim make their followers into good people and claim that much benefit humanity has been accomplished through their faiths imho they are right the american friends service committee quaker catholic relief services bread for the world salvation army soup kitchens and mother theresa spring mind can someone with more knowledge islam supply the names some analagous islamic groups when mother theresa claims that her work outgrowth her christianity believe her her form theism ascribes her deity such benevolence toward humanity that would wrong not care for those need the point that such philosophy does have the power change the behavior individuals widespread enough can change societies the same works for the horrors history claim that christianity had little with the crusades the inquisition deny the awesome power that comes from faith absolute what seems you are doing twisting the reasonable statement that religion was never the solitary cause any evil into the unreasonable statement that religion has had evil impacts history that absurd scott sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu
alt.atheism	books edm twisto compaq com mccreary writes while the topic books has anyone else noticed that paine the age reason hard find been wanting pick copy for while but not bad enough mail order noticed though that none the bookstores seem carry thought this was supposed classic what the deal actually got entire list books written various atheist authors and went the largest bookstore area pittsburgh and couldn find any them what section the bookstore you find these kinds books you have look alternative bookstore for most them any help would appreciated can send you the list you want thanks nanci you know and are sure the author this quote please send email andrew cmu edu the fate the country does not depend what kind paper you drop into the ballot box once year but what kind man you drop from your chamber into the street every morning
alt.atheism	college atheists nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes read article about poll done students the ivy league schools which was reported that third the students indentified themselves atheists this lot higher than among the general population wonder what the reasons for this discrepancy are because they are more intelligent younger this the wave the future would guess that probably has something with the ease which ideas and thoughts are communicated college campus the real world easier for theists well people general really lock themselves into little bubble where they only see and talk those people who are the same opinion they are college you are constantly surrounded and have interact with people who have different ideas about life the universe and everything much much harder build bubble around yourself keep everyone else ideas from reaching you world where theists are forced contend with and listen atheists and theists other religions some are bound have change their beliefs over four years there nowhere run david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell nanci you know and are sure the author this quote please send email andrew cmu edu the fate the country does not depend what kind paper you drop into the ballot box once year but what kind man you drop from your chamber into the street every morning
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr nic csu net davec silicon csci csusb edu dave choweller wrote article apr bnr rashid writes stuff deleted the point post was that rushdie was not being condemned solely for the words his book although this was certainly contributing factor was the whole series actions rushdie and his publishers following the publication the book and the initial media spotlight placed the book that large part led the fatwa the kind fatwa levelled against rushdie not lightly placed and there are any number anti islamic writers both within and outside the islamic world who have not had fatwas made against them here someone who adds fuel explosive situation might charged with incitement riot people die the rioting the charges against him might become even more serious how can rushdie blamed for the deaths people who are demonstrating against him the deaths should blamed the people who dealt with the demonstrations the demonstrators themselves they were violent what lengths will you justify this barbaric behaviour against rushdie once the rushdie situation exploded into the media the muslim voice the matter the book was effectively restricted short video bytes showing the dramatic highlights muslim demonstrations for every twenty newspaper magazine articles interviews etc supporting rushdie there would appear one muslim voice this person was usually selected based how dramatic and incoherent was not his knowledge islam the situation the time this approx twenty one ratio continued throughout the escalation the crisis with rushdie the central spotlight the man the moment the valiant defender everyman right free speech decoupled from responsibility aside interesting that while the hue and cry about freedom speech went some books defaming certain ethnic and religious groups continued banned here was felt that they injured the sensibilities these groups and presented false image which could promote feelings hate towards these groups for muslims this kind double standard was annoying rushdie saw this spotlight golden opportunity lash out organized islam and did with admirable verbal skill the only kind islam which rushdie finds palatable what calls secular islam islam separated from qur prophet god its legislation and most importantly from any intrusion into any political arena fine rushdie made his views known the muslim made their anger his book known the scale the whole affair erupted into global proportions was this time already political situation affecting governments well individuals the situation was serious one with far reaching political implications the centre this turmoil was rushdie throwing fuel the fire engaged personal crusade that made him oblivious any sense caution now you may feel that the person the centre worldwide storm such this has responsibility has reason exercise restraint any kind has obligation perhaps step back momentarily out the spotlight till matters calm down perhaps you even feel that justified boldly defying the anger all those who dare take umbrage his literary work matter what insult they find within perhaps you see him kind secular heroic knight mounted the his media steed doing battle with the dragon islamic fundamentalism well khomeini saw him disingeneous author who grew muslim atmosphere knew well what muslim hold dear who wrote book which mischievously uses certain literary conventions slander insult and attack islam and its most notable personalities who when faced with situation that became worldwide crisis continued with his mischief the world stage the media who even after people were injured and killed because the magnitude and emotion the situation continued his mischief instead having the good sense desist khomeini saw the crisis mischief making grand scale mischief making that grew scale the scale the crisis enlarged the deaths muslims around the world and rushdie continued media mischief even after this was the triggering factor that seemed decide khomeini putting stop the mischief the person the centre all these events was rushdie was the source the continuing mischief all media support government support was just that support the source was rushdie and his publishers who were nothing short ecstatic the publicity and were very happy see rushdie constantly the media the islamic rulings that deal with people who engage this kind grand scale mischief making was applied rushdie you attempts justification are not doing the image islam any good have made attempts justification only explanation image the chief concern muslim apologists for islam and for rushdie muslims willingly relegated themselves becoming sub culture within larger secular culture such that the secular principles and laws had precedence over the laws islam then have doubt that islam would then thought have good image principally because would and large reflect the secular image good image usually means more like your attempts totally exonerating rushdie reflect exactly the attitude that resulted the polarization brought about the crisis iran the situation was monitored for many months when rushdie kept adding fuel the flames through the free worldwide voice that the media gave him the situation was monitored more seriously when even after many deaths occured worldwide rushdie still did not desist the fatwa was pronounced when behaving like total jerk endangers lives and the jerk sees this and still insists his right behave like total jerk has the rug jerked out from under him the muslims didn make such big fuss over the book like issuing death threats and killing publishers one would have heard the fatwa came later much later rushdie didn mouth off much the media the fuss would have died down one would have been killed fatwa would have been passed the whole episode would have fizzled away
alt.atheism	who has read rushdie the satanic verses article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes yes the qur discusses this point several ways some them quite directly for example says that god were appear them there would need for faith and belief the evidence would definitive excellent why doesn she appear little weak the blind faith department besides she doesn even really need appear how about say little tip something like put your all the the dog races perhaps dream vision how know that muhammed didn just out into the desert and smoke something would person who was high write well and with such consistency afraid don know arabic have only read translations wouldn know were well written consistent though one thing the quran not and have you read arabic besides some best writing has been done under the influence shall say consciousness altering substances and how know that the scribes dictated the quran didn screw put their own little verses they have very good without destroying the beauty and literary quality text arabic text yes how know they weren very good again assuming that the quran beautfully written and why can muhammed marry more than four women when other muslim allowed muhammad did not exceed the number after the revelation regulating the number wives man could marry but before retract this point although might still say that once knew should have done something about although think the biggest insult islam that the majority its followers would want suppress book sight unseen the say some holy guy not mention murder the author agree but really true that this the case haven interviewed all muslims about this would really like this were false but can take your say what are your sources another case judging principles the basis those who claim follow them what other basis have judge system especially when can get consistent picture what islam really believe khomeini the imam the mosque mecca perhaps the guy new jersey perhaps you say should only the quran whose translation and what about things like and wherever you find idolators kill them shamim mohamed uunet noao cmcl arizona shamim shamim arizona edu take this cross and garlic here mezuzah jewish page the koran muslim and zen buddhist you your own member the league for programming freedom write lpf uunet net
alt.atheism	genocide caused theism evidence saw hour show pbs the other day about the history the jews appearently the cursades religious war agianst the muslilams the holy land sparked the widespread persecution muslilams and jews europe among the supporters the persiecution were none other than martin luther and the vatican later hitler would use luthers writings justify his own treatment the jews genocide caused theism evidence
alt.atheism	societal basis for morality article fzd news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes what basis can say that the actions another society per hitler comment are wrong ultimately rests with personal opinion opinion why does majority make right the question doesn make sense maybe would better ask what makes democracy better than for example totalitarian regim dan
alt.atheism	high times comin verdant ucs umass edu sol lightman writes theory though yet unproven that this due simple envy its not its due the fact that there are two issues here religion and religion religion personal belief system religion memetic virus people loudly proclaiming their beliefs are crossing the border from religion religion people that want save others are firmly entrenched religion memoids rule not practicing religion shut the fuck unless you discuss politely this means that the motive behind the conversation not only your self gratifying wish spread the word religion something that ultimately comes from within person and reflects their value judgements religion something that contracted from others and does not reflect the persons value judgements other than perhaps think brainwashed today religion drug believe you can discuss religion however the post that started this off was not intented discussion was more proclamation someones religion you think talking about censorship that closeminded you haven understood this don have any problem with the discussion religion its just religion that can stand
alt.atheism	high times comin rubble leland stanford edu adam heath clark writes seems very large part christianity based the notion that the right religion and that just about any other way looking the universe flat out wrong the old days had the inquisition and the burning heretics now have pat buchanan trying start some cultural war because can stand live the same country all these other non god fearing people its survival trait there are only fixed number resources people for religions inhabit the doctrines intolerance and not using birth control are devices whereby the meme the capital religion christianity gains larger share the population than its memetic competitors
alt.atheism	christian morality article apr dcs warwick simon dcs warwick simon clippingdale writes dan concerned that you are grave spiritual danger because your stubborn refusal love and accept into your heart the mighty invisible pink unicorn nice parody deleted shall pray for you fact brother cast out the demon which binds you the name the mighty invisible pink unicorn dan you must have faith then you better pray for too because believe that the mighty invisibile pink unicorn does not exist one being cannot both pink and invisible the demon should that daemon that keeps from believing and saving soul named logic bill mayne
alt.atheism	who has read rushdie the satanic verses article optima arizona edu sham arizona edu shamim zvonko mohamed writes article innknk bozo dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes anyway since seem the only one following this particular line discussion wonder how many the rest the readership have read this book what are your thoughts read when first came out and liked the time still sorta kinda thought myself muslim and couldn see what the flap was all about thank you now know least that though may drugs least not the only one the writing style was little hard get used but was well worth the effort coming from similar background rushdie grew bombay muslim family and moved england grew new delhi made strong impression and used many the strange constructions indian english the yaar the end sentence butbutbut the occasional hindi phrase etc yes this took some getting used course not having indian connection knowledge hindi etc this was not trivial for did have thanks the wonders the net glossary satanic verses posted rec arts books vijay raghavan which explains lot the indian english constructions indian culture references even the islamic references jahilia submission the context the satanic verses incident etc what have only covers the first couple hundred pages but helped get into the flow the novel can mail this anyone interested anyone has portions after part they exist like get those jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	burden proof aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu bill ray writes make statement that god exists loves etc but way insist that you believe does that place burden proof upon you insist that god doesn exist does that place burden proof upon you give proofs only give testimony beliefs will respond proofs that you attempt disprove beliefs what your reaction people who claim they were abducted space aliens some these people say was abducted experimented etc insist that these aliens don exist the burden proof placed these people can give hard facts but can give lot testimony back their beliefs replace space aliens with elvis big foot blue unicorns and have larger percentage the population than like think about sometimes wonder reality really different experience for everone
alt.atheism	rawlins debunks creationism john king king ctron com posts whopping one liner the modern theory evolution inadequate that deserves treated matter faith francis hitching have few points make about the above posting science not based and does not consist quotes from either real alleged experts critical reasoning evidence and possible experimentation are necessary creationists frequently display massive confusion about this merely quoting both non experts and experts alike some the latter quotes are fact false and steadfastly refusing follow any kind rigorous scientific procedure this strongly suggests that their claims completely lack any scientific merit and they are aware this fatal deficiency course you may not actually creationist and this may not your real intent you have failed identify hitching and the surrounding context his statement why that hitching scientific illiterate then the quote would merely display his profound ignorance evolutionary biology creationists are frequently known quote real scientists out context and fabricate statements that they subsequently attribute legitimate scientists course you may not actually creationist and this may not your real intent evidence supporting the alleged inadequacies the modern theory evolution would much more powerful argument than contextless one line quote from unidentified nobody also important note that disproving biological evolution does not automatically prove some alternate claims any more that disproving that the earth shaped like hockey puck proves that hyperbolic paraboloid creationists seem rather fond diving head first into this logical fallacy course you may not actually creationist and this may not your real intent since evolution central virtually all modern science attack evolution either the fact the theory really represents attack science while the theory will unquestionably continue evolve the fact evolution will not ever away creationists lost the battle long ago more than years fact but are simply too willfully ignorant and irrational acknowledge the fact course you may not actually creationist and you may not really that ignorant warren kurt vonroeschlaub iastate edu asks neither nor webster has ever heard francis hitchings who like hitchings not found webster francis hitchings scientifically illiterate creationist perhaps just playing the part one who wrote quite ignorant book attacking evolution the neck the giraffe that publication quotes creationist jean sloat morton using the standard invalid creationist probability argument that proteins could not have formed chance thus not only confusing abiogenesis with evolution the two are quite independent but also concluding with non sequitur the conclusion does not follow hitchings also misquotes richard lewontin effort support creationism hitchings book was reviewed national park service ecologist david graber the los angeles times and repeated the oregonian the article was titled giraffe sticks scientific neck out too far excerpts include francis hitchings not biologist goes after darwin like mark antony after brutus flips from scientific reasoning mysticism and pseudo science with the sinuosity snake oil salesman suggests mystical organizing principle life using the similarity organs different creatures evidence sic note that the last statement above actually evidence for evolution not against john king quoting from this reviewed book wouldn surprise much also interesting that king had nothing add only posted quote uucp uunet tektronix sail mikec cranford uunet tektronix sail labs tek com mikec principal troll arpa mikec sail labs tek com relay net resident skeptic csnet mikec sail labs tek com teklabs tektronix
alt.atheism	genocide caused theism evidence article dvi mailer fsu edu dekorte dirac scri fsu edu stephen dekorte writes saw hour show pbs the other day about the history the jews appearently the cursades religious war agianst the muslilams the holy land sparked the widespread persecution muslilams and jews europe among the supporters the persiecution were none other than martin luther and the vatican later hitler would use luthers writings justify his own treatment the jews genocide caused theism evidence heck remember reading quote luther something like jews should shot like deer and course much catholic doctrine for centuries was extremely anti semitic are you sure that your truth and your justice are worth more than the truths and justices other centuries simone beauvoir where there certainty that rises above all doubt and withstands all critique karl jaspers rice university will rice college
alt.atheism	political atheists article vinnkn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kcochran nyx edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes wait are talking about ethics morals here the distinction important yes well make ethics deal with individuals morals deal with groups well our moral system seems mimic the natural one number ways please describe these number ways detail then explain the any contradictions that may arise just look how human behavior mimics animal behavior couldn even begin list all the similarities many the dissimilarities are due our high intelligence please describe these number ways detail then explain any contradictions that may arise don know what wrong possible for humans survive for long time the wild yes possible but difficult humans are social animal and that cause our success define difficult don understand what you don understand the sentence yes possible but difficult humans survived the wild for hundreds thousands years noted earlier lack mating such abstinence homosexuality isn really destructive the system worst neutral every member the species was homosexual this wouldn destructive the survival the species most animals that exhibit homosexuality are actually bisexual answer the question keith homosexuality detrimental the survival the species kcochran nyx edu tsakc thoughts posts ideas responsibility beer pizza
alt.atheism	bayesian statistics theism and atheism article apr dcs warwick simon dcs warwick simon clippingdale writes article quei horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article apr dcs warwick simon dcs warwick simon clippingdale writes write imagine that alterian dollars turn your bank account every month suppose further that this money being paid you your big hearted alterian benefactor bug alterian atm let suppose that this true dichotomy trouble alterius different universe that observations alterius are possible except for the banks you couldn possibly afford now let examine the case for there evidence whatsoever that there any such thing big hearted alterian benefactor however exists not exists the grounds that lack evidence for evidence against when have partition like that dismiss hypothesis turning therefore also find evidence support that hypothesis the same grounds before dismiss hypothesis the problem with this that have dismissed all the possible hypotheses and even though know construction that the money arrives every month have proven that can because have dismissed all its potential causes that extremely poor argument and here why premise this money being paid you either your big hearted alterian benefactor bug alterian atm thus each monthly appearance the bucks should happen observation alterius and construction evidence for the existence either the benefactor the bug the atm premise observations alterius are possible except for the banks you couldn possibly afford you forgot include this premise actually premise the cardinality the set possible observations alterius one this clearly contradictory the first not you state properly trouble the basis premise you say that there can evidence either the benefactor the bug but the first premise leads the conclusion that the appearance the bucks should happen evidence for the existence either the benefactor the bug voila screaming contradiction with highlights but strawman argument there only evidence for oneof benefactor bug observation distinguish benefactor from bug possible that not evidence for bug and neither evidence for benefactor nor true say that this hypothetical universe appears exactly there were benefactor bug two statements both would false this still contradictory reduces alterian dosh arriving account due benefactor bug this not evidence for benefactor neither evidence for bug meaning that doesn lend more weight one than the other therefore evidence can exist for benefactor and evidence can exist for bug but relies shift meaning from when you say paraphrased that this not evidence for benefactor for example what you mean that more evidence for benefactor than for bug yes that what mean however you shifted the meaning evidence for benefactor that now means absolute evidence for benefactor rather than relative evidence for benefactor bug not really meant evidence that would tend one over the other think this just communications problem what trying say clumsy way that while buy your theory far relates theism making predictions prayer your rapture example don buy your use occam razor all cases where example one couldn dismiss benefactor bug the grounds simplicity one these necessary explain the dosh brought the one one dismissal process show that would wrong from what you saying this post seems you agree and talking cross purposes still contradiction some sums may help with benefactor bug dosh arrives account implies assuming that either the benefactor bug which responsible the bucks arrive but not both then but implies that and this isn what meant and with necessarily new observation already seen the dosh change those estimates was trying say again clumsy way that would wrong assign probability either these and that precisely what use the razor does the case gods gods are one class hypothesis there are many others belonging set hypotheses one which necessary explain something which otherwise would not satisfactorily explained can thrown out retained grounds non rational preference not science statistics alternatively one could chuck out retain the lot the grounds that the answer can known that the notional probability estimates are effectively useless being equal agnosticism weak atheism they when the set filled the universe caused where gods pink unicorns nothing etc and observation tends one conclusion over the other exactly the point was making think don throw out any these contrary your assertion above that some people simon and they think they are doing excellent science sole point was that they aren only observations which directly contradict the hypothesis where can cause zero after finite number observations only this case get throw any the hypotheses out exactly point though may have been unclear you said the diametric opposite which guess the source confusion was merely trying illustrate the incorrectness doing what trying say that while you are correct say that absence evidence can sometimes evidence absence this does not hold true for all perhaps any versions theism and isn true that those for which does not hold can discarded using the razor the contrary those for which does not hold are exactly those which can discarded using the razor see post the other branch this thread then you seem guilty the contradiction you accuse the razor holds for gods then holds for all like hypotheses which means that you assigning for all though already established that not correct when sum over all simply put anyone who claims have viable proof the existence non existence gods whether inductive best mistaken and worst barking mad luckily make such claim and have specifically said much numerous occasions you wouldn constructing strawman here would you frank although that doesn course rule out being barking mad any case could barking mad spare time with apologies cleese but think you miss the point once again when say that something evidence against hypothesis that doesn imply that observation the said something necessarily falsifies the hypothesis reducing the estimate data zero reduces this quantity still evidence against got that talking about the case when you clearly correct when and not constructing strawman though certainly possible that misunderstood what you saying however any standards system that says when gods are highly unlikely and when gods can dismissed using the razor system purporting inductive proof that gods either don exist are unnecessary explain any all phenomena experience systems such this including those which purport prove that gods exist always contain fallacy upon close examination that not what you saying then please put straight frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	asimov stamp battin cyclops iucf indiana edu laurence gene battin writes apart from the suggestion that appeared the letters column skeptical inquirer recently has there been any further mention about possible asimov commemorative stamp this idea hasn been followed does anyone know what needs done get this happen think that its great idea should start petition something believe that there year period from time death until person can commemorative stamp was broken once for lyndon johnson think but other than that has held for awhile course can still start now the elvis stamp was petitioned for ages and things really moved once got past the year anniversary his death carl christensen dept computer science christen astro ocis temple edu temple university curiouser and curiouser philadelphia usa
alt.atheism	where are they now article horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article apr nuscc nus cmtan iss nus tan chade meng dan writes leaving june that because going back university alt atheism banned there stupid theist intolerance sad isn anybody has any idea how can circumvent this problem frank solution deleted you have access telnet contact nyx edu public access unix system completly free and all you need for access verifiable form think requires notarized copy picture check some such kcochran nyx edu tsakc thoughts posts ideas responsibility beer pizza
alt.atheism	age reason was who has read rushdie sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes this the story kent the archetype finn that lives the bay area and tried purchase thomas paine age reason this man was driving around staceys books inc well cleanlighted place daltons various other places when asked for this book the well educated american book store assistants most placed asked him check out the thriller section then they said that his book has not been published yet but they should receive the book soon some places the assistants bluntly said that they don know such author that not well known living author they don keep copies his books such the life and times america years after the revolution similar note good friend mine worked clerk chain bookstore several his peers were amazing one woman particular customer asked her they had the autobiography benjamin franklin who was her first question then still alive then fiction non fiction finally friend intervened and showed the guy where was makes one wonder what the standards employment are scott sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu
alt.atheism	strong weak atheism rusnews mantis mathew writes did that faq ever got modified define strong atheists not those who assert the nonexistence god but those who assert that they believe the nonexistence god word yes mathew mathew could you let know when this happened can see version date possible try save the faqs once while but otherwise ignore their regular postings wouldn generally notice such change and like stay current thanks scott
alt.atheism	problem with omnipotence recall discussion had heard years ago went something like this the problem with omnipotence least perceive personified the christian god ideal that potentially contradictory manifestation such god truly infinite power can god place limits upon itself some stuff can recall then some other questions think recall correctly can god unmake itself can god make itself assuming doesn yet exist has god has always existed necessary for observer bind all gods potential quantum states into reality was god nothing more than primordial force nature that existed during the earliest stages universal inflationary creation god vacuum fluctuation given great enough energy density could create god would that make god and god something else some more stuff don recall concerning creating god followed god self aware necessary that god self aware god living entity necessay that god living entity god unchanging does evolve any comments post them that others might benefit from the open inquiry and resulting discussion kyle
alt.atheism	atheism 
alt.atheism	you will all hell article pharaoh cyborg martin pharaoh cyborg martin gorman writes jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all hell for not believing god prepared for your eternal damnation fuck off actually just think confused going hell because gay not becuase don believe god wonder that means can come tammy deans picnic kcochran nyx edu tsakc thoughts posts ideas responsibility beer pizza because the daddy that why
alt.atheism	requests article qllg mailer fsu edu mayne pipe fsu edu william mayne writes article pww spac rice edu pww spacsun rice edu peter walker writes didn the church get lightning rods banned several european countries the eighteenth century because was widely believed that they interfered with god striking down blasphemers seem remember that this was more common eastern europe don know about eastern europe but according bertrand russell writing science and mysticism think though could have been another book said that preachers colonial boston attributed earthquake god wrath over people putting lightning rods which they had been preaching against interference with god will being deprived lightning bolts method get sinners evidently resorted sterner measures smilies not making this sure you are not after the san francisco earthquake couple years ago there was flurry traffic talk religion misc about how this was the result the notorious homo this that and other the city the fact that the earthquake was actually down the road santa cruz watsonville didn seem phase them any jon
alt.atheism	little too satanic kent sandvik and jon livesey made essentially the same response this time kent article gets the reply agree but this started one particular point time and don know when this starting point accurately copied scriptures actually happened this begs the question whether ever started perhaps because accuracy was always intention even worse the events were not written eye witness accounts high probability looking possible dates when the first gospels were ready then have take into account all the problems with information forwarded with the telephone metaphor indeed makes little difference you have eyewitnesses people one step away reporters you will said earlier the telephone metaphor innately bad because the purpose game telephone contrary the aims writing these sorts texts also would point out that the standards generally asserted this group the distinction between eyewitnesses and others hollow since nobody can shown eyewitness indeed even shown the author the text there evidence that the original texts either the the are largely lost over time sea errors corrections additions and deletions the case the the evidence strongly the other direction the textus and the nestle aland text not differ more than low level significance reasonable assume similar situation for the based the model wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	societally acceptable behavior article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes qvh tinnsg citation ksu ksu edu yohan citation ksu ksu edu jonathan newton writes article qgm news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes merely question for the basis morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior disagree with these what society thinks should irrelevant what the individual decides all that important this doesn seem right want kill you can because that what decide sounds though you are confused between what want and what think morally right jon
alt.atheism	why rushdie writings are unappreciated article quc tut lehtori tut aario sami writes edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes article jqd mdb blaze jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes has been asked why counter fatwa has been issued against khomenei condemnation rushdies because his satanic verses the reason basically that the satanic verses from which rushdie took his title are serious matter not played around with anyone who cares about islam this shouldn matter that your opinion which sorry say irrelevant gregg this guy sounds more than little borg ish vell this perfectly normal behaviour vor vogon you know jon
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law just received some new information regarding the issue bcci and whether islamic bank etc now about post under the heading bcci look for there fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	why boyd acsu buffalo edu daniel boyd writes the bible such incredible proof christianity then why aren the muslims the hindus convinced the qur such incredible proof islam then why aren the hindus the christians convinced god exists why aren atheists convinced tan chade meng yes sir have only one question singapore cmtan iss nus what going
alt.atheism	christianity logic was xtian morality article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes simple logic arguments are folly you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools those who tried trick him with logic you rely simply your reason then you will never know more than you now once heard arguement from xtian friend similar this christianity higher logic athiest like will not able understand your atheist logic very low only thru faith can understand the higher logic god asked him what this higher logic his answer don know this the posting above highlights one the worst things about xtainity abundantly clear both atheists xtains that their believe both illogical irrational their tactics therefore disregard logic rationality altogether silly excuses such the ones above and those such how can trust science science was invented man only goes further show the weakness their religion country where xtainity was and still rapidly growing xtains never try convert people appealing their brains senses they know would fruitless act given the irrational nature their faith they would wait until person distress then they would comfort him her and addict them their emotional opium never life had met person who converted xtainity coz reasonable rationality has place xtainity see xtian arguement against reason above the unenlightened one tan chade meng the wise man tells his wife that understands her singapore cmtan iss nus the fool tries prove the unenlightened one tan chade meng the wise man tells his wife that understands her singapore cmtan iss nus the fool tries prove
alt.atheism	some thoughts article madhausc kip netcom com madhaus netcom com maddi hausmann writes healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes tammy see maddi trimmed healy well you going have practice but you getting the hang soon going have give you new nickname try these for size tammy lucky seven healy tammy pass the falafel healy tammy healy tammy learning doing healy the thing trademarked don know charles lazarus dead alive but careful because with name like lazarus might rise again just start lawsuit dean kaflowitz knew architect once who swear was employed design the signs for the toys and kids stores the signs the things they stick over the store big pole they can seen from the highway what job all those hours school studying architect you can tell them move the pole ten feet closer the highway
alt.atheism	some thoughts article aec cbnewsj att com decay cbnewsj att com dean kaflowitz writes the thing trademarked don know charles lazarus dead alive but careful because with name like lazarus might rise again just start lawsuit the not trademarked but the backwards believe speaking proofs god the funniest one have ever seen was term paper handed freshman she wrote god must exist because wouldn mean make believe exists really doesn this argument really much worse than the ontological proofs the existence god provided anselm and descartes among others raymond smullyan from and other philosophical fantasies
alt.atheism	fundamental beliefs sda article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes was asked post list the sda church basic beliefs the sda church has always been reluctant formalize creed the usual sense word however the powers that the church deemed neccessary publish summary basic sda beliefs may ask why they are afraid speaking proofs god the funniest one have ever seen was term paper handed freshman she wrote god must exist because wouldn mean make believe exists really doesn this argument really much worse than the ontological proofs the existence god provided anselm and descartes among others raymond smullyan from and other philosophical fantasies
alt.atheism	cults religions jgreen trumpet calpoly edu james thomas green writes religion cult which those power belong actually they all bull shit graeme nattress ncl hitler nibor from the planet vashir the galactic shape changing psychopath john the tomorrow people hitler last secret
alt.atheism	you will all hell article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes article apr mnemosyne edu kcochran nyx edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes from kcochran nyx edu keith justified and ancient cochran subject you will all hell date sun apr gmt article pharaoh cyborg martin pharaoh cyborg martin gorman writes jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all hell for not believing god prepared for your eternal damnation fuck off actually just think confused going hell because gay not becuase don believe god wonder that means can come tammy deans picnic course you can come said all posters are invited and didn put homosexual clause bring some munchies and join the party can imagine dean objecting either knowing keith expect bring the leather accessories better oil well leather cracks when dries dean kaflowitz
alt.atheism	poisoning the well was islamic genocide article rbpq ibg horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article bbacbc dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes the way that why consider you theist points consisting rhetorical fallacy unsupported claims and demonstrable falsehoods deleted wonder that don see any detail for this claim good remember that you have answered the statement that you are theist another correspondent with that you are not member denomination either stupidity attempt trick answer not unlike the rest your arguments roseneau have little patience with people who tell what believe and who call liar when disagree position not only know what that believe but say agnostic extremely wary the way you use words like this case there are broader definitions gods used persons who are considered themselves and others theists have pointed that post you use one them your use definitions seems rest the assumption because moral objective absolute the other buzz words you are fond everybody will know and there need define more exactly and user has shown recently the easiest way dispell you ask you for definitions you are course free speculate motives for objecting seeming irrational bigotry you wish but the flaws which point out your arguments stand their own merits since you are the only one seeing them and many correspondents point the flaws your reasoning respectively discussing can say impressed benedikt
alt.atheism	some thoughts article lkz blaze jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes article briggs ccresources utas edu briggs postoffice utas edu william briggs writes wasn carpenter anyway that beside the point think the fact that more compelling fulfilling the prophecies when the prophecies include him getting killed the most agonizing possible way this nonsense can think lot more agonizing ways get killed fatal cancer for instance anyone else have some more maybe can make list actually find the stuff about being carpenter more interesting there independent source for this assertion all from the christian bible there any record all anything built table house some stairs norm abrams says the real test carpenter skill building stairs with hand tools did leave any plans behind for say kitchen counters and cabinets did build his own cross did use pressure treated lumber gotta use that pressure treated anywhere that wood meets concrete but holds better anyway for mose outdoor applications keep seeing these bumper stickers that say boss jewish carpenter but they always the back ford escorts and real carpenter apprentice would probably drive pickup out for verification that really was carpenter dean kaflowitz sometimes like get away from the shack catfish ain pretty but they don talk back goin fishin again goin fishin again and good friends sure goin fishin again
alt.atheism	some thoughts article apr daffy wisc edu mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes article lkz blaze jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes can think lot more agonizing ways get killed fatal cancer for instance anyone else have some more maybe can make list how about dying blood clot very bad place kidney stones with complete blockage
alt.atheism	some thoughts article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes article aec cbnewsj att com decay cbnewsj att com dean kaflowitz writes the thing trademarked don know charles lazarus dead alive but careful because with name like lazarus might rise again just start lawsuit the not trademarked but the backwards believe yup think you right mistake now how make backwards using computer keyboard bet the gods know how this alt atheism after all tell you what all start coming out backwards when type from now become believer and that not asking for miracles asked for miracle ask for real miracle like for pat buchanan become out the closet drag queen well maybe that wouldn miraculous but think look fabulous feather boa and sequined hat like mia farrow wore gatsby dean kaflowitz
alt.atheism	all mary fault article briggs ccresources utas edu briggs postoffice utas edu william briggs writes deletion lucky for them that the baby didn have any obvious deformities could just see now mary gets pregnant out wedlock save face she and joseph say that was god that got her pregnant and then the baby turns out deformed even worse stillborn they have lot explaining few points guys oops guy and gal but use the term guy asexually has the same sort conspiracy ever occurred since mean there must have been dozen times the past two thousand years when would have been opportune time for messiah born has there guy running around switzerland who claims have been conceived similarly his mother says the same his father said bit surprised but anyway there have been lot messiahs and many have had similar story about their birth their death list messiahs could quite interesting wouldn you feel bad you turned out wrong and the conception christ was via god can just imagine your faces mary asks you you ever had child yourself would wonder why omnipotent god pulls such stunts instead providing evidence for everyone check and the whole question absurd wouldn you feel bad you find out that stones are sentient and that you have stepped them all your life and wouldn you feel bad when you see the proof that jesus was just plot satan they wanted save image they could have done what joseph planned the first place have quite wedding and equally quite divorce think was quite easy under jewish law that regard they would have been pretty dumb think conspiracy like the one you outlined that they bringing attention themselves messiah appearances were like royal scandals zero israel see the part acts when the sandhedrin are discussing what about the growth the new church one wise guy said leave alone and what says nothing can stop and isn then will just fizzle out anyway you forgotten the pride factor didn fizzle the church mean the argument fallacy like thanks for reading this far the end letter most religions claim that they won fizzle because they contain some eternal truth does christianity since there are old religions wonder find old religions that have that they would last roll twelve dice calculate the chance for the result argue that there must something special about the result because event with chance could hardly happen chance only feel elevated because you have participated letting that special event take place benedikt
alt.atheism	thoughts christians bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes robert beauchine wrote that praying the young preying the young comes later when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the priest really wears under that chasible does this statement further the atheist cause some way surely not intended wit surely was intended wit the way which atheist cause were you referring bill kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad edu blacksburg virginia
alt.atheism	room for metaphor article bakerlj augustana edu bakerlj augustana edu lloyd baker writes what want response giving the pros and cons metaphorical religious language could atheist accept this view without giving the foundamentals what believes could atheist accept usage which religious literature tradition viewed metaphorical way course this essentially what with homer with other concepts such fate luck free will however there remains the question whether the religious literature say christianity particularly good set metaphors for the world today also entirely unclear and quite unlikely that one could take contemporary religion like that and divorce the metaphoric potential from the literalism and absolutism carries now many cases jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	moraltiy was political atheists article cmninnb gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes pardon trying apply human terms non humans that right you are basically stating that morality can only deal with humans because only humans are sentient enough moral that you say that morality can only deal with intentions have never said that only humans are the only beings which are sufficiently sentient have intentions fact have explicitly said that perfectly happy consider that some animals are capable forming intentions what objecting considering programmed instinctive behaviour have moral significance since seems such behaviour does not involve intention think that even someone not conscious alternative this does not prevent his behavior from being moral sure you think this you say how about trying convince think that moral act moral whether not the implementor thinks that not the point the point whether the implementor thinks all the issue not whether thinking produces opinion opinion but whether thinking takes place period offered four times think accept your definition you allow ascribe moral significence the orbital motion the planets hmm perhaps you can ascribe could say that many human actions are not natural and thus don follow natural morality since humans are part nature are not all human actions natural perhaps you going throw definition natural that will allow describe some actions natural and some not natural what the definition other than those death which surround mating rituals other animals just don kill each other within species that often they sure they multiple posters have show you sharks for example eat wounded sharks personally seen cats eat their newborn are you some kind denial people give you example after example and you off the air for week and then pop claiming that never happened very strange but why don animals kill each other see what mean here again what have write tailor made faq just for schneider jon
alt.atheism	you will all hell this hell hasn anyone noticed consensual reality special case
alt.atheism	islam and scientific predictions was genocide caused atheism article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes deletion god the one who created the night the day the sun and the moon each travelling orbit with its own motion qur deletion well that certainly different but looks there translation found for everything the way most surprised hear that night and day move orbit thought about this too some translations refer only the latter two objects being orbit but bucaille translation seems indicate the night and the day travelling orbit too perhaps this can understood when one looks from the earth reference frame from this reference frame the day and the night would appear orbit the earth travelling from east west this from the reference frame when the earth still well yes but that belongs the other group there interpretation found for everything however allowing any form interpretation reduces the information the text interprteted zero the way have checked the quote and think the lines preceding those quoted above are more interesting where mountains are set earth order immobilize the earth where the skies heavens are referred well supported the lines given above are after edition maybe this what meant the above just possibility and that the sun travels orbit without saying that earth does too sounds geocentric will see can find out more about this but still not geocentric that sun and moon move and the earth immobile sounds geocentric benedikt
alt.atheism	cruel was political atheists article emjinnmk gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes but this just shows then that painful execution not considered cruel and unusual punishment this shows that cruel used the constitution does not refer whether not the punishment causes physical pain rather must different meaning don think although some forms execution are painful the electric chair looks particularly think the pain relatively short lived drawing and quartering the other hand looks very painful and the victim wouldn die right away bleed death imagine what have now integral over pain time get lash you with wet noodle for ever but only get cut you with power saw quick about jon
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq atheist resources archive name atheism resources alt atheism archive name resources last modified april version atheist resources addresses atheist organizations usa freedom from religion foundation darwin fish bumper stickers and assorted other atheist paraphernalia are available from the freedom from religion foundation the write ffrf box madison telephone evolution designs evolution designs sell the darwin fish fish symbol like the ones christians stick their cars but with feet and the word darwin written inside the deluxe moulded plastic fish postpaid the write evolution designs laurel canyon north hollywood people the san francisco bay area can get darwin fish from lynn gold try mailing figmo netcom com for net people who lynn directly the price per fish set free atheist stickers shirts and books write set free box garden grove american atheist press aap publish various atheist books critiques the bible lists biblical contradictions and one such book the bible handbook ball and foote american atheist press isbn edition bible contradictions absurdities atrocities immoralities contains ball foote the bible contradicts itself aap based the king james version the bible write american atheist press box austin cameron road austin telephone fax prometheus books sell books including haught holy horrors see below write east amherst street buffalo new york telephone alternate address which may newer older prometheus books glenn drive buffalo african americans for humanism organization promoting black secular humanism and uncovering the history black freethought they publish quarterly newsletter aah examiner write norm allen african americans for humanism box buffalo united kingdom rationalist press association national secular society islington high street holloway road london london british humanist association south place ethical society lamb conduit passage conway hall london red lion square london fax the national secular society publish the freethinker monthly magazine founded germany ibka internationaler bund der konfessionslosen und atheisten postfach berlin germany ibka publish journal miz materialien und informationen zur zeit politisches journal der konfessionslosesn und atheisten hrsg ibka miz vertrieb postfach berlin germany for atheist books write ibdk internationaler ucherdienst der konfessionslosen postfach hannover germany telephone books fiction thomas disch the santa claus compromise short story the ultimate proof that santa exists all characters and events are fictitious any similarity living dead gods well walter miller canticle for leibowitz one gem this post atomic doomsday novel the monks who spent their lives copying blueprints from saint leibowitz filling the sheets paper with ink and leaving white lines and letters edgar pangborn davy post atomic doomsday novel set clerical states the church for example forbids that anyone produce describe use any substance containing atoms philip dick philip dick dick wrote many philosophical and thought provoking short stories and novels his stories are bizarre times but very approachable wrote mainly but wrote about people truth and religion rather than technology although often believed that had met some sort god remained sceptical amongst his novels the following are some relevance galactic pot healer fallible alien deity summons group earth craftsmen and women remote planet raise giant cathedral from beneath the oceans when the deity begins demand faith from the earthers pot healer joe fernwright unable comply polished ironic and amusing novel maze death noteworthy for its description technology based religion valis the schizophrenic hero searches for the hidden mysteries gnostic christianity after reality fired into his brain pink laser beam unknown but possibly divine origin accompanied his dogmatic and dismissively atheist friend and assorted other odd characters the divine invasion god invades earth making young woman pregnant she returns from another star system unfortunately she terminally ill and must assisted dead man whose brain wired hour easy listening music margaret atwood the handmaid tale story based the premise that the congress mysteriously assassinated and fundamentalists quickly take charge the nation set right again the book the diary woman life she tries live under the new christian theocracy women right own property revoked and their bank accounts are closed sinful luxuries are outlawed and the radio only used for readings from the bible crimes are punished retroactively doctors who performed legal abortions the old world are hunted down and hanged atwood writing style difficult get used first but the tale grows more and more chilling goes various authors the bible this somewhat dull and rambling work has often been criticized however probably worth reading only that you know what all the fuss about exists many different versions make sure you get the one true version books non fiction peter rosa vicars christ bantam press although rosa seems christian even catholic this very enlighting history papal immoralities adulteries fallacies etc german translation gottes erste diener die dunkle seite des papsttums droemer knaur michael martin atheism philosophical justification temple university press philadelphia usa detailed and scholarly justification atheism contains outstanding appendix defining terminology and usage this necessarily tendentious area argues both for negative atheism the non belief the existence god and also for positive atheism the belief the non existence god includes great refutations the most challenging arguments for god particular attention paid refuting contempory theists such platinga and swinburne pages isbn hardcover paperback also available the case against christianity temple university press comprehensive critique christianity which considers the best contemporary defences christianity and ultimately demonstrates that they are unsupportable and incoherent pages isbn james turner without god without creed the johns hopkins university press baltimore usa subtitled the origins unbelief america examines the way which unbelief whether agnostic atheistic became mainstream alternative world view focusses the period and while considering france and britain the emphasis american and particularly new england developments neither religious history secularization atheism without god without creed rather the intellectual history the fate single idea the belief that god exists pages isbn hardcover paper george seldes editor the great thoughts ballantine books new york usa dictionary quotations different kind concentrating statements and writings which explicitly implicitly present the person philosophy and world view includes obscure and often suppressed opinions from many people for some popular observations traces the way which various people expressed and twisted the idea over the centuries quite number the quotations are derived from cardiff what great men think religion and noyes views religion pages isbn paper richard swinburne the existence god revised edition clarendon paperbacks oxford this book the second volume trilogy that began with the coherence theism and was concluded with faith and reason this work swinburne attempts construct series inductive arguments for the existence god his arguments which are somewhat tendentious and rely upon the imputation late century western christian values and aesthetics god which supposedly simple can conceived were decisively rejected mackie the miracle theism the revised edition the existence god swinburne includes appendix which makes somewhat incoherent attempt rebut mackie mackie the miracle theism oxford this posthumous volume contains comprehensive review the principal arguments for and against the existence god ranges from the classical philosophical positions descartes anselm berkeley hume through the moral arguments newman kant and sidgwick the recent restatements the classical theses plantinga and swinburne also addresses those positions which push the concept god beyond the realm the rational such those kierkegaard kung and philips well replacements for god such lelie axiarchism the book delight read less formalistic and better written than martin works and refreshingly direct when compared with the hand waving swinburne james haught holy horrors illustrated history religious murder and madness prometheus books looks religious persecution from ancient times the present day and not only christians library congress catalog card number norm allen african american humanism anthology see the listing for african americans for humanism above gordon stein anthology atheism and rationalism prometheus books anthology covering wide range subjects including the devil evil and morality and the history freethought comprehensive bibliography edmund cohen the mind the bible believer prometheus books study why people become christian fundamentalists and what effect has them george smith atheism the case against god prometheus books describes the positions atheism theism and agnosticism reviews many the arguments used favour the existence god concludes with assessment the impact god people lives net resources there small mail based archive server mantis which carries archives old alt atheism moderated articles and assorted other files for more information send mail archive server mantis saying help send atheism index and will mail back reply mathew
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq overview for new readers archive name atheism overview alt atheism archive name overview last modified april version overview welcome alt atheism and alt atheism moderated this the first series regular postings aimed new readers the newsgroups many groups controversial nature have noticed that new readers often come with the same questions mis statements misconceptions and post them the net addition people often request information which has been posted time and time again order try and cut down this the alt atheism groups have series five regular postings under the following titles alt atheism faq overview for new readers alt atheism faq introduction atheism alt atheism faq frequently asked questions faq alt atheism faq constructing logical argument alt atheism faq atheist resources this article number please read numbers and before posting the others are entirely optional you are new usenet you may also find helpful read the newsgroup news announce newusers the articles titled primer how work with the usenet community answers frequently asked questions about usenet and hints writing style for usenet are particularly relevant questions concerning how news works are best asked news newusers questions you are unable find any the articles listed above see the finding stuff section below credits these files could not have been written without the assistance the many readers alt atheism and alt atheism moderated particular like thank the following people kck cmu edu karl kluge perry dsinc com jim perry netoprwa ncsuvm ncsu edu wayne aiken chpetk gdr bath toby kelsey jkp hut jyrki kuoppala geoff arnold east sun com geoff arnold torkel sics torkel franzen kmldorf utdallas edu george kimeldorf roe quads uchicago edu greg roelofs arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee madhaus netcom com maddi hausmann psuvm psu edu john johnson dgraham bmers bnr douglas graham mayne open fsu edu william mayne ajr bigbird hri com andy rosen stoesser ira uka achim stoesser bosullvn unix tcd bryan sullivan lippard ccit arizona edu james lippard rigel tamu edu baum ydobyns phoenix princeton edu york dobyns schroede sdsc edu wayne schroeder baldwin csservera usna navy mil baldwin nibby unhh unh edu dana nibby dempsey kodak com richard dempsey jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu john david munch pdc dcs paul crowley mips complang tuwien richard zach tycchow math mit edu tim chow simon dcs warwick simon clippingdale phimanen helsinki pekka himanen and countless others forgotten these articles are free truly free you may copy them and distribute them anyone you wish however please send any changes corrections the author and please not post copies the articles alt atheism does nobody any good have multiple versions the same document floating around the network finding stuff all the faq files should somewhere your news system here are some suggestions what you can find them check the newsgroup alt atheism look for subject lines starting with alt atheism faq check the newsgroup news answers for the same subject lines you don find anything steps your news system isn set correctly and you may wish tell your system administrator about the problem you have anonymous ftp access connect rtfm mit edu the directory pub usenet alt atheism and you find the latest versions the faq files there ftp way copying files between networked computers you need help using getting started with ftp send mail mail server rtfm mit edu with send usenet news answers ftp list faq the body there are other sites which also carry news answers postings the article introduction the news answers newsgroup carries list these sites the article posted regularly news answers you don have ftp send mail mail server rtfm mit edu consisting the following lines send usenet news answers finding sources send usenet alt atheism faq send usenet alt atheism introduction send usenet alt atheism logic send usenet alt atheism resources penultimate resort send mail mail server mantis consisting the following lines send atheism faq faq txt send atheism faq logic txt send atheism faq intro txt send atheism faq resource txt and our poor overworked modems will try and send you copy the files there other stuff too interesting commands try are help and send atheism index last resort mail mathew mantis post article the newsgroup asking how you can get the faq files you should only this you tried the above methods and they failed not nice clutter the newsgroup people mailboxes with requests for files better than posting without reading the faq though for instance people whose email addresses get mangled transit and who don have ftp will probably need assistance obtaining the faq files mathew
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes article markp avignon markp avignon mark pundurs wrote you take lsd and skews your perception reality you come down and your perceptions unskew never taken lsd but read about the strange lifes and times the ashbury heights culture something that was usually profound was the way these lsd trippers mentioned that after their first trip they changed their view the world other words taking lsd would change their reference frames which would indicate that deep changes due let say rewiring the brain temporarily will indeed change frames and this leads the statement that there solid reference frame the lsd trippers modified their relative view much the haight ashbury crowd probably had pre existing dissatisfactions with their lives dissatisfactions ameliorated mumbo jumbo about new realities the only change experienced after lsd was gain the knowledge that didn enjoy how lsd twisted perception mark pundurs any resemblance between opinions and those wolfram research inc purely coincidental
alt.atheism	genocide caused theism evidence apr gmt bobbe vice robert beauchaine yayg said execellent examples luther insane rantings deleted gee sooooo surprised that they don teach this part his ideology high schools today mccreary edm twisto compaq com were not for laughter there would tao
alt.atheism	thoughts christians wed apr gmt sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik wrote article rgkb darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu conner questioning the blissful afterlife reason why many joined the early xian church well remember jacoby mythmaker talks about this cite one source but not sure all christians have read this book addition social experiences from being raised and educated lutheran having lot christian friends and even have played two christian rock bands you mean hyam maccoby the mythmaker mike mcangus the truth still the truth mam mouse cmhnet org even you choose ignore some the old sig viruses are still the best
alt.atheism	death penalty was political atheists tue apr gmt bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote this fascinating atheists argue for abortion defend homosexuality means population control insist that the only values are biological and condemn war and capital punishment according benedikt something contardictory cannot exist which this case means atheists suppose what atheists are you talking about imnsho abortion the womans choice homosexual sex the choice the people involved war sometimes necessary this leaves capital punishment oppose capital punishemnt because mistakes can happen yes this thread went around with resolution recently far poplulation control think contraception and education are the best courses action would like understand how atheist can object war excellent means controlling population growth capital punishment sorry but the logic escapes that because you are again making the assumption that all atheists have some specific mindset and why just capital punishment what being questioned here the propriety killing punishment what the basis the ecomplaint mistakes can happen bill and could the victim such mistake mike mcangus the truth still the truth mam mouse cmhnet org even you choose ignore some the old sig viruses are still the best
alt.atheism	americans and evolution tue apr gmt bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote robert singleton bobs thnext mit edu wrote sure isn mutually exclusive but lends weight increases notional running estimates the posterior probability the atheist pitch the partition and thus necessarily reduces the same quantity the theist pitch this because the divine component falls prey ockham razor the phenomenon being satisfactorily explained without and there being independent evidence any such component more detail the next post occam razor not law nature way analyzing argument even interesting how often cited here and what end seems odd that religion simultaneously condemned being primitive simple minded and unscientific anti intellectual and childish and yet again condemned being too complex occam razor the scientific explanation things being much more straightforeward and apparently simpler cute characterization bill however there inconsistency between the two statements even one believes that religion primitive simple minded and unscientific anti intellectual and childish one can still hold the view that religion also adds unnecessary level complexity the explanation the ideas themselves don have complex before being excised occam razor they only have add unnecessarily the overall complexity the description which which the non essential and how you know think the non essential part explanatory system one that adds predictive capability the system considering that even scientists don fully comprehend science due its complexity and diversity maybe william occam has performed lobotomy kept the frontal lobe and thrown everything else away huh this all very confusing sure one you will straighten out tough watch your freudian slip showing mike mcangus the truth still the truth mam mouse cmhnet org even you choose ignore some the old sig viruses are still the best
alt.atheism	christian morality apr gmt dps nasa kodak com dan schaertel wrote article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes yet still not believer god not concerned with disposition why beneath him provide with the evidence would require believe the evidence that personality given this god would find compelling the fact god could cause you believe anything wants you but think about for minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you because they wanted love you the responsibility you love god and take step toward him promises there for you but you have look for yourself those who doubt this dispute have not givin sincere effort and many others have described how have tried find god are you saying our efforts have not been sincere for all the effort have put there has been outward nor inward change that can perceive what sincerely searching agnostic atheist supposed when even the search turns nothing simple logic arguments are folly you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools those who tried trick him with logic our ability reason just spec creation yet some think the ultimate you rely simply your reason then you will never know more than you now learn you must accept that which you don know how you accept that which you don know you mean that must believe your god order believe your god mike mcangus the truth still the truth mam mouse cmhnet org even you choose ignore some the old sig viruses are still the best
alt.atheism	hard soft strong weak kiss apr gmt timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons wrote mccullou whipple wisc edu writes writing someone else but you probably like seem soft atheist sorry for the flamage can get back using the terms strong atheist and weak atheist rather than this hard atheist and soft atheist can imagine future discussions with newbies where there confusion because the multiplication descriptions rest deleted mike mcangus the truth still the truth mam mouse cmhnet org even you choose ignore some the old sig viruses are still the best
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes simple take out some physics books and start looking for statements which say that there objective physics doubt you will find any you might find statements that there objective length objective location but objective physics perhaps you have different understanding what physics can measure anything objectively then the answers get from physics aren objective either that what mean when say there objective physics sure can all agree that say gmm but that maths only physics when you relate the real world and can that objectively stuck course this displays blatant bias towards applied science but even theoretical physics gets applied models real world situations based real world observations consider for instance that speed light vacuum invariant this sounds awful lot like objective speed light vacuum axiom that invariant but the two measure get different answers yes call that experimental error but not really error the conventional sense fact you don get any that error you could argue that the value objective within some value but call that rather odd usage the word objective and opens the way for statements like murder objectively wrong for all people within the total population mathew
alt.atheism	burden proof watson sce carleton stephen watson writes kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes fbi officials said cult leader david koresh may have forced followers remain flames closed koresh armed guard may have injected many children with poison quiet them the fbi have proof this yet why ask only quoting the fbi official why not ask the fbi myabe they lying cover maybe they telling the truth the children were course killed lone gunman second story window who fired eight bullets the space two seconds mathew
alt.atheism	cults religions mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes the media religion and cult have about the same relative connotations government and terrorist group yes each form the other charley anarchist just true words being spoken jest mathew
alt.atheism	gulf war and peace niks mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes seem agreeing that the soldiers were just doing their job best they could following orders proof positive that some people are beyond satire mathew
alt.atheism	are atoms real was after years blah blah blah kempmp phoenix oulu petri pihko writes mathew mathew mantis wrote what the difference between chemist and someone who taught chemistry say cambridge university put like this can answer was originally pointing out that your attitude seemed don know really was that chemists tend ignore all kinds effects when they not important yes all scientists otherwise science would never get anywhere your original posting stated that when doing chemistry common ignore atomic interactions hang about not atomic interactions general just specific ones which are deemed unimportant like gravitational interactions between ions which are small they drowned out electrostatic effects and has there been some revolution teaching methods the last four years perhaps this revolution has yet reach cambridge now get flamed for sure probably they still make people memorize equations and spectra maybe few decades they discover the revolutionary data book technique bitter and twisted mathew
alt.atheism	history texts was ancient references christianity wrote the diaries the followers the maharishi formerly oregon are historical evidence article psilink com robert knowles psilink com writes are you confusing bhagwan rajneesh with the maharishi mahesh yogi here any chance believe that maharishi titular someone please correct wrong thus maharishi rajneesh different person from maharishi mahesh but they are both maharishis russell
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article itp horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer says specifically like know what relativism concludes when two people grotesquely disagree both are right one them wrong and sometimes though perhaps rarely have pretty good idea who one them wrong but never have any information who make our best guess really must make decision the idea right moral judgement meaningless implying that whether peace better than war meaningless question and need not discussed for has correct answer something else short positive assertion would nice hope you can tell and are actually predicated the assumption that values are real statements like these can consistently derive from the relativist assumption that values aren part objective reality relativist who would like answer your question but the way you phrase the question makes unanswerable the concepts right and wrong correct incorrect true false belong the domain epistemological rather than moral questions makes sense ask moral position right wrong although legitimate ask good better than another position let illustrate this point looking the psychological derivatives epistemology and ethics perception and motivation respectively one can certainly ask percept right correct true veridical wrong incorrect false illusory but makes little sense ask motive true false the other hand strange ask whether percept morally good evil but one can certainly ask that question about motives therefore your suggested answers simply can considered they assume you can judge the correctness moral judgment now the problem with that double barrelled agree with the first part that the rightness moral position meaningless question for the reasons stated above but that irrelevant the alleged implication not implication all that one cannot feel peace better than war certainly can make value judgments bad better best without asserting the correctness the position sorry for the lengthy dismissal short answer that when two individuals grotesquely disagree moral issue neither right correct wrong incorrect they simply hold different moral values feelings john johnson psuvm psu edu department psychology penn state dubois campus penn state not responsible for behavior ruthless doctrinaire avoidance degeneracy degeneracy another sort getting drunk and picking bar ladies and writing metaphysics part life from lila pirsig
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality this swf another indirect post via dan article apr asl nec com duffy aslss asl nec com joseph duffy writes article apr microsoft com russpj microsoft com russ paul jones writes the same way that any theory proven false you examine the predicitions that the theory makes and try observe them you don you observe things that the theory predicts wouldn happen then you have some evidence against the theory the theory can modified incorporate the new observations then you say that false but how does one handle the nonrepeatability the experiment many types experiments the prediction that the observed phenomena will happen again and capable being observed for example chemistry someone may predict the outcome chemical reaction and then actually observe that reaction repeatedly there are several problems here first you are discussing only experimental procedures observational procedures are also useful the main criterion attempting verify idea using make prediction about yet unmade observations the observations could the result experiment they could obsevations activity occuring spontaneossly nature they could even observations the lasting results events long past all that matters that the observations new this what prediction about science not about predicting the future except this very restricted sense secondly repeatability can also take many forms really just the requirement that independent observers able verify the results the observation fossil repeatable since any qualified observer may look this why the specimens are reqtined museum also there the implicit prediction that future fossil finds will correspond the current one new fossils are found often enough that this tested regularly many times new fossil actually falsifies some conclusion made the basis previous fossils unfortunately for you the models that were falsified have alway been peripheral the model evolution now have for instance the front legs tyrannosaurus rex turned out have tremendous muscles rather than being weakly endowed previously believed fact histoircal science findings are repeatable the necessary sense just becuase you cannot out and repeat the original event does not make impossible make valid observations this not say that biologists would not coo coo extra terrestrial life were discovered that could make the determination the process abiogenesis relatively easy sarima teradata com formerly tdatirv sarima stanley friesen elsegundoca ncr com sarima teradata com formerly tdatirv sarima stanley friesen elsegundoca ncr com
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes the intent post remember was show that you cannot argue against any religion ideology for that matter the actions those who claim its followers you have look the teachings the religion the principles the ideology itself there getting around this argue against islam you have the qur bringing khomeini anyone else relevant discussing khomeini but not necessarily relevant discussing islam religion sorry fred but for the purposes under discussion here must disagree your point true only the sense that one cannot argue against communism reference the chinese soviet empires since those did not represent true communism judging the practical consequences islam force contend with the world today precisely the khomeini the world the rushdie fatwa supporters and perhaps more importantly the reaction the world muslim community those extremists that must look perhaps unfortunately from your perspective most people are not concerned with whether islam the right religion for them whether the qur could used guidebook for hypothetical utopia but how islam affects the world around them what their lives might like islam gains influence when consider such possibilities with not inconsiderable fear jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	hoban was the inimitable rushdie article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes interchange hoban deleted this post mine also illustrates that not simply reactionary who hates any book which doesn out its way avoid upsetting religionists only those you haven actually read sorry but the irony remains reiterate for the nth time also that don agree with fatwa nor support censorship point the original thread has been show why rushdie not particularly due sympathy those who hold their religion high esteem and don enjoy seeing things which slander like the story the satanic verses opposed the rushdie tsv played with for amusement although you don agree with the fatwa and apparently don think rushdie should killed for his book yet you think not due sympathy for being being under this threat furthermore you base this reaction solely the fact that wrote about particular well known story which true might reflect poorly the absolute truth your religion yet this opinion formed without recourse actually looking see how the story used context accepting face value the widespread propaganda just what this book contains and what the author motivations are and then you come forward and recommend another book which touches presumably plays with religious historical material because you find its overall presentation neutral jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	death penalty was political atheists bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes this fascinating atheists argue for abortion defend homosexuality means population control insist that the only values are biological and condemn war and capital punishment according benedikt something contardictory cannot exist which this case means atheists suppose would like understand how atheist can object war excellent means controlling population growth capital punishment sorry but the logic escapes first you seem assume all atheists think alike atheist does not believe the existence god our opinions issues such capital punishment and abortion however vary greatly you were attacking the views particular atheist benedikt presume then please present your argument such and not lump all together for the issues let start with abortion personally not support abortion means population control contraception after the fact however support the right any woman have abortion regardless what personal views may because would arrogant tell any individual what she may may not his her body and the domain legislators should not extend into the uterus that opinion and sure many atheists and theists would disagree with not defend homosexuality means population control but certainly defend end itself think most homosexuals would angered hear anyone characterizing their personal relationship nothing more than conscious effort keep population levels down for atheists believing all values are biological have idea what you talking about finally there are the issues war and capital punishment atheist can object either one just easily theist might you seem hung some supposed conspiratorial link between atheism and population control could this the atheist cause you were referring few posts back kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad edu blacksburg virginia
alt.atheism	faith and dogma tgk toronto edu todd kelley writes faith and dogma are irrational the faith and dogma part any religion are responsible for the irrationality the individuals disagree the end the individual responsible for his her own irrationality the individual belief some dogmatic religion symptom that irrationality have you noticed that philosophers tend atheists atheists and agnostics would imagine but yes that was point atheist would theoretically just ill equipped study the philosophy religion christian and yet there persistence atheists among the ranks philosophers therefore the conflict between one religious beliefs lack thereof and the ability philosopher must not great you assert the fact that most philosophers may non religious was secondary point science would practiced atheists contrast has built defence against faith and dogma opposed science practiced theists careful here science does have built defence against faith and dogma skepticism unfortunately not foolproof there that wonderful little creature known the theory many believe the theory evolution have absolute proof that this theory true why believe because makes more sense than there quite bit faith involved here scientist holds sacred the idea that beliefs should change suit whatever the best information available the time and and and scientist understands that any current beliefs are deficient some way well not all current beliefs are deficient but basically agree can you see the difference science views beliefs being flawed and new information can obtained improve them ideally this true reality though you have acknowledge that scientists are human scientists have egos and biases some scientists assume particular theory true refuse admit the flaws that theory because ego problems whatever and proceed spend their time and money trying come with absolute proof for the theory remember cold fusion the way wasn aware mass suicide was problem waco and jonestown were isolated incidents mass suicides are far from common clinton and the fbi would love for you convince them this would save the taxpayer lot money you could not really agree that spent far too much money the waco crisis believe especially considering the outcome point was that mass suicides the are rare jonestown was guyana incidentally although footed the bill for the clean and the has far more important issues address compare the number citizens who have died mass suicides with say the number soldiers who died during one week the vietnam war and you will see point kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad edu blacksburg virginia
alt.atheism	rawlins debunks creationism article dglinnkv ctron news ctron com king ctron com john king writes iastate edu warren vonroeschlaub writes neither nor webster has ever heard francis hitchings who please not answer with well known evolutionist some other such informationless phrase paleontologist and author the neck the giraffe the quote was taken from jack for your information checked the library congress catalog and they list the following books francis hitching earth magic the neck the giraffe where darwin went wrong pendulum the psi connection the world atlas mysteries tom scharle scharle irishmvs room computing center scharle lukasiewicz edu university notre dame notre dame usa
alt.atheism	rawlins debunks creationism article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes article sncl usenet ucs indiana edu adpeters sunflower bio indiana edu andy peters writes evolution have said before theory and fact exactly the same amount each the existence atoms and the existence gravity you accept the existence atoms and gravity fact then you should also accept the existence evolution fact andy don accept atoms gravity fact either they are extremely useful mathematical models describe physical observations can make other posters have aptly explained the atomic model gravity too very much theory gravity waves have even been detected but have very useful model that describes much the behavior objects this thing call gravity gravity however not fact theoretical model used talk about how objects behave our physical environment newton thought gravity was simple vector force einstein wave both are very useful models that have religious overtones requirements faith unless course you want demand that factual physical entity described exactly the way the theory now formulated talks about that takes great leap faith which course what religion takes evolution different jim halat halat bear com bear stearns whatever doesn kill you will only serve annoy you nyc speak only for myself what you accept fact the roundness the earth after all the ancient greeks thought was sphere and then newton said was spheroid and now people say geoid yourself isn your personal identity just theoretical construct make sense memories feelings perceptions trying think anything that would fact for you give some examples and let see how factual they are your criteria btw what are your criteria gravity not fact that fact how about newton and einstein thoughts about gravity fact that they had those thoughts don see how any the things that you are asserting are any more factual than things like gravity atoms evolution short before willing consider your concept what fact going have have minimum some examples what you think are facts tom scharle scharle irishmvs room computing center scharle lukasiewicz edu university notre dame notre dame usa
alt.atheism	mottos replace dog trust pepke dirac scri fsu edu eric pepke writes mammon trust hey this just piece paper spend quickly this your god from john carpenter they live natch steve the lurking horror stelter sjs uxa cso uiuc edu
alt.atheism	fake god holy lies article apr zeus calpoly edu dmcaloon tuba calpoly edu david mcaloon writes remember einstien said imagination greater than knowledge then einstein should have had lunch with the tien castro street yesterday when they handed fortune cookie that said who has imagination but not knowledge has wings but feet jon
alt.atheism	free moral agency see told you there was atheist mythology thanks for proving point bill
alt.atheism	free moral agency maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com wrote but how know that you representing the real christians bill you asshole get lost maddi see that you still can grasp the obvious because your are devious nature can you only find fault with argument misrepresenting plainly said that was stating the christian position understand did not say whether agree with since point was that the only flaws that position are those atheists invent have never claimed expert anything and especially christianity but have made object pretty intense study over the years feel qualified discuss what its general propositions are what offends you that have exposed the distortions and misrepresentations christianity you contrive and then rail against which seems more like the classical strawman dodge than what said this leaves you with nothing but attack but usual you avoid the larger issues picking away the insignificant stuff why not find one particular thing post that can discuss can you even tell what the issues are bill
alt.atheism	free moral agency article uul darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes many the atheists posting here argue against their own parody religion they create some ridiculous caricature religion and then attack the believers within that religion and the religion itself ridiculous their own devices they establish new religion mythology you mean bobby mozumder myth wondered about that the point course erect easy target and deflect the disputants away from the real issue atheism the fictional christian moslem jew who supposed believe the distorted representation their beliefs presented here therefore made seem fool and his her arguments can thereby made appear ludicrous the mythology the misrepresentations religion used here fact you mean bobby mozumder didn really post here wondered about that too conner bobby mozumder myth performing artist real moslem crackpot provocateur you know everything and read all minds why don you tell jon
alt.atheism	free moral agency article uul darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes many the atheists posting here argue against their own parody religion they create some ridiculous caricature religion and then attack the believers within that religion and the religion itself ridiculous their own devices they establish new religion mythology that not atheism mythology any sense the word religious paradoy would significantly more appropriate the part rendered null and void the simple fact that know several strong atheists sure that others myself strong the sense that find the standard concept god without any meaning any attempt bring meaning either results the destruction the viability language internal self contradiction the concept strong atheism not just whimsical fantasy they and exist your strawman pointless and weak private note jennifer fakult this post may contain one more the following sarcasm cycnicism irony humor please aware this possibility and not allow yourself confused and thrown for loop doubt assume all the above the owners this account not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability recognize any the above read your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	free moral agency article uxj darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes see told you there was atheist mythology thanks for proving point bill considering what you quoted and refered was blank must say touche course you are correct there atheistic mythology employed this board there null and void private note jennifer fakult this post may contain one more the following sarcasm cycnicism irony humor please aware this possibility and not allow yourself confused and thrown for loop doubt assume all the above the owners this account not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability recognize any the above read your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	free moral agency article uzpe darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes what offends you that have exposed the distortions and misrepresentations christianity you contrive and then rail against which seems more like the classical strawman dodge than what said this leaves you with nothing but attack but usual you avoid the larger issues picking away the insignificant stuff why not find one particular thing post that can discuss can you even tell what the issues are let guess you not psycho analyst real life but you play one alt atheism right esp something you have been given god private note jennifer fakult this post may contain one more the following sarcasm cycnicism irony humor please aware this possibility and not allow yourself confused and thrown for loop doubt assume all the above the owners this account not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability recognize any the above read your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	death penalty gulf war long article apr daffy wisc edu mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes article optima arizona edu sham arizona edu shamim zvonko mohamed writes bullshit the gulf massacre all ordnance used was smart the rest that was just regular dumb iron bombs and stuff have heard figures closer and the that was the smart stuff hit again try follow here that means this smart arsenal missed most figures have seen place the hit ratio close which still far higher than your have source that says that date the civilian death count excuse mean collateral damage about have never seen any source that was claiming such figure please post the source its reliability can judged obviously have different sources bill moyers who happens theist tie this alt atheism his pbs documentary after the war main source think still have videotape others include the nation and the progressive the rest the article mere rationalisation you may claim that sanitation plants are strategic legitimate targets but what happens the civilians city with sewer system what happens the civilians when you destroy water purification plants and when hospitals can handle the resultant epidemics because there more electricity and what exactly are your sources have all sure seen postol interviews the media where demostrates how the pentagon lied about the patriot effectiveness what your source for the effectiveness you claim any case don know this relevant alt atheism how about move somewhere else shamim mohamed uunet noao cmcl arizona shamim shamim arizona edu take this cross and garlic here mezuzah jewish page the koran muslim and zen buddhist you your own member the league for programming freedom write lpf uunet net
alt.atheism	the qur and atheists was jewish settlers demolish mosque gaza article psilink com robert knowles psilink com writes date sun apr gmt from fred rice darice yoyo monash edu the qur talks about those who take their lusts and worldly desires for their god think this probably encompasses most atheists fred rice darice yoyo monash edu well all the muslim men screwing fourteen year old prostitutes thailand got better quote wonder the above quote forms the justification for athiesm and the equanimity with which their belief arrived
alt.atheism	free moral agency andrew newell tan psuvm psu edu wrote think you letting atheist mythology confuse you the issue webster myth traditional legendary story belief whose truth accepted uncritically how does that qualify indeed almost oxymoronic rather amusing instance found that most atheists hold almost atheist views accepted uncritically especially the few that are legend many are trying explain basic truths myths but they don meet the other criterions andrew the myth which refer the convoluted counterfeit athiests have created make religion appear absurd rather than approach religion including christainity rational manner and debating its claims the are stated atheists concoct outrageous parodies and then hold the religious accountable for beliefs they don have what more accurately oxymoric the term like reasonable atheist bill divine justice according the most fundamental doctrines christianity when the first man sinned was that time the you accuse him referencing mythology then you procede launch your own xtian mythology this time meeting all the requirements myth here good example what said above read the post again said acoording which means referring christian doctrine understand speaking for myself you know purpose posting was present basic overview christain doctrines since seemed germane bill with those who pretend not know what being said and what means when atheists claim that they not know god exists and don know what wants they contradict the bible which clearly says that everyone knows the authority the bible its claim should repeat what wrote above for the sake getting across you may trust the bible but your trusting doesn make any more credible the bible says that everyone knows that clearly reason doubt the bible because not everyone knows your alleged god alleged existance again paraphrasing christian doctrine which very clear this point your dispute not with bill refuted while the species wide condemnation justified those that claim that there evidence for the existence god that his will unknown must deliberately ignore the bible the ignorance itself excuse they don have ignore the bible the bible far from universally accepted the bible not proof god only proof that some people have thought that there was god does prove even that they might have been writing series fiction short stories the case dionetics assuming the writers believed the only thing could possibly prove that they believed and that ignoring the problem whether not all the interpretations and biblical philosophers were correct there are people who have truly never heard the bible again read the faq here again you miss the point the bible itself not the point what contains makes difference who accpets the bible even who unaware its existence christians hold that applies universally because mankind shares the same nature and the same fate and the same innate knowledge god see above you read post with same care read the faq wouldn having this conversation bill freedom you are free ignore god the same way you are free ignore gravity and the consequences are inevitable and well known both cases that atheist can accept the evidence means only bzzt wrong answer gravity directly there doesn stop exerting direct and rationally undeniable influence you ignore god the other hand doesn generally show the supermarket except the tabloids god doesn exert rationally undeniable influence gravity obvious gods aren said the evidence there you just don accept here least agree bill secondly human reason very comforatble with the concept god much that itself intrinsic our nature human reason always comes back the question god every generation and human reason hasn always come back the existance god has usually come back the existance god other words doesn generally come back the xtian god comes back whether there any god and much oriental philosophic history generally doesn pop the idea god much the question what natural forces are and which ones are out there from world wide view human nature just makes wonder how the universe came and what force are currently control natural tendancy believe god only exists religious wishful thinking yes human reason does always come back the existence god having this discussion are not bill said all this make the point that christianity eminently reasonable that divine justice just and human nature much different than what atheists think whether you agree not you certainly are not correct human nature you are the least basing your views completely eurocentric approach try looking the outside world well when you attempt sum all humanity well this interesting truth determined politically correct content granted extremely unhip wasp male and anything european contemptable but thought this kind dialogue the purpose was get the truth things but then remember the oxymoron reasonalble atheist and understand bill
alt.atheism	free moral agency james felder spbach lerc nasa gov wrote are you saying that their was physical adam and eve and that all humans are direct decendents only these two human beings then who were cain and able wives couldn their sisters because didn have daughters were they non humans okay all humans are direct descendents bunch hopeful monsters the human race didn evolve from one set parents but from thousands you really base your atheist this considering that something like out humans this planet don know instinctively that the christian god exist the claim instinctive knowledge doesn look like hold much water are you saying that the billion non christians the world must fight this instinctive urge acknowledge god and did say that people were christians nature did say that christians hold that everyone knows the god the christians worship would have thought the distinction obvious sorry read post again and see what really said from what you written think you are just being agumentative also your word wrap screwed you need shift columns text bill
alt.atheism	free moral agency kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote agree had hard feeling not believing grand grand mother who told elves dancing outside barns the early mornings preferred not accept even her statement provided the truth itself life hard kent truly brilliant rebuttal apparently you are the opinion that ridicule suitable substitute for reason you find plenty company bill
alt.atheism	cruel kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes don think although some forms execution are painful the electric chair looks particularly think the pain relatively short lived drawing and quartering the other hand looks very painful and the victim wouldn die right away bleed death imagine cruel punishment not just painful you origionally stated about long term pain non short lived why this sudden chance your stance don think changed stance all original stance was that painless execution was not cruel one didn say what would considered cruel only that painless death wasn now cruelty must involve some sort suffering believe don think someone that gets shot the head electrocuted really suffers very much even hanging probably produces one sharp instance pain but over quickly hmmmmm pardon could that counter example has been made which renders your previous stance null and void why don you admit that your previous stance incorrect you somehow managed slip and misstated your origional stance why not admit well again stated that painless death isn cruel but don think stated that all painful executions are cruel think that some are cruel depending the nature and duration the pain the way how long too long anything more than instant guess any death suffocation asphyxiation blood loss would cruel think this includes the gas chamber and drawing and quartering say that any pain that lasts say over twenty seconds would too long but this may arbitrary cutoff suppose keith
alt.atheism	christian morality dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote article ousrvr oulu kempmp phoenix oulu petri pihko writes love god just much she loves she wants seduce she know what but she did you would probably consider rape course not would think that would great fun not having ever felt the joy and peace the christians speak with longing gaze this not what got when believed just tried hide fear getting punished for something never was sure the bible hopelessly confusing for someone who wants know for sure god did not answer the end found had been following mass delusion lie can believe being who refuses give slightest hint her existence obviously there are many christians who have tried and believe suggest they should honestly reconsider the reasons why they believe and analyse their position fact amusing note this context that many fundamentalist publications tell exactly the opposite one should not examine one belief critically tell you something left out testimony posted this group two months ago day after finally found out faith over decided try just one more time the same cycle emotional responses fired once again but this time the delusion lasted only couple hours told friend phone that really works thank god just think about again when hung had admit that had lied and fallen prey the same illusion one asks you swallow everything fact jesus warns against but let ask you question you beleive what you learn history class for that matter anything school mean just what other people have told you and you don want swallow what others say right used believe what read books when was younger what other people told but grew more and more skeptical the more read learned what means use reason student chemistry had perform qualitative analysis mixture two organic compounds the lab hated experiments like this they are old fashioned and increase the student workload considerably besides had twice since failed first attempt however think never forget the lesson matter how strongly you believe the structure the unknown may still very tempting jump into conclusions take leap faith assure oneself ignore the data which inconsistent but can still wrong found out that was after all using exactly the same mechanism believe god mental self assurance suspension fear filtering information other words was only god playing any part the life death and resurection christ documented historical fact and had better believe this dan many ufo stories are much better documented than the resurrection jesus the resurrection documented quite haphazardly the bible seems the authors did not pay too much attention which wild rumour leave out besides the ends the gospels probably contain later additions and insertions for instance the end mark missing from many early texts says bible jesus may have lived and died but was probably misunderstood much anything else you learn how you choose what believe and what not this easy believe that the world exists independent mind and that logic and reason can used interpret and analyse what observe nothing else need taken faith will the evidence makes difference whether believe george washington existed not assume that did considering the vast amount evidence presented there way get into sceptical heart you can not say you have given sincere effort with the attitude you seem have you must trust not just church and participate activities were you ever willing die for what you believed liar how you know what attitude was try reading your bible again was willing die for faith those who are usually remembered heroes least among those who believe dan you think lying when say believed firmly for years seems very difficult admit that someone who has really believed does not anymore but can lying myself blind trust dangerous and was just another blind led the blind but god really wants she know what willing just don know whether she exists looking the available evidence looks like she doesn petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics the truth pihatie finou oulu physics the rule oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu chemistry the game
alt.atheism	upi mother files complaint over boy scouts default followups newsgroups short excerpt brookfield wis upi mother has filed complaint with the elmbrook school board alleging her son elementary school and its parent teacher organization show discrimination supporting the boy scouts gisele klemp said wednesday the pto sponsorship boy scout troop and cub scout pack that meet hillside elementary school surbarban milwaukee discrimination because the boy scouts ban homosexuals pto president gail pludeman disputed the charges discrimination and said she believes the boy scouts are beneficial carl kadie not represent any organization this just kadie uiuc edu
alt.atheism	free moral agency article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes okay all humans are direct descendents bunch hopeful monsters the human race didn evolve from one set parents but from thousands you really base your atheist this article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes truly brilliant rebuttal apparently you are the opinion that ridicule suitable substitute for reason you find plenty company bill conner meet bill conner jon
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes only when the sun starts orbit the earth will accept the bible did you forget that two spinning skaters are orbit around each other
alt.atheism	you will all hell article apr wam umd edu willdb wam umd edu william david battles says article apr ncsu edu aiken news ncsu edu wayne nmi aiken writes jsn psuvm psu edu wrote you blashephemers you will all hell for not believing god prepared for your eternal damnation did someone leave their terminal unattended again probably not the jesus freak post probably jsn psuvm penn state just loaded the hilt with bible bangers use there vomit and was the reason left they even had group try stop playing rock music the dining halls one year cuz they deemed satanic kampus krusade for khrist people run the damn place for the most part except the liberal arts departments they are the safe havens sounds like you were going different penn state something kampus krusade for khrist very vocal here but they really have little power get anything done sometimes seems like there are lot them because they generally more vocal than their opposition but there really aren that many krusaders the liberals tend keep themselves they can help since all they really want allowed about their own lives the way they want you don hear from about most them the bible bangers stand out because they want everyone forced live according bible banger rules the krusaders certainly don run this place say got rather average mix people here much like the rest the and just like everywhere else some factions are louder than others andrew
alt.atheism	free moral agency article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes the myth which refer the convoluted counterfeit athiests have created make religion appear absurd rather than approach religion including christainity rational manner and debating its claims the are stated atheists concoct outrageous parodies and then hold the religious accountable for beliefs they don have what more accurately oxymoric the term like reasonable atheist they are religious parodies not atheistic paradies please substantiate that they are parodies and are outrageous specifically why the iup any more outrageous than many religions private note jennifer fakult this post may contain one more the following sarcasm cycnicism irony humor please aware this possibility and not allow yourself confused and thrown for loop doubt assume all the above the owners this account not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability recognize any the above read your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	cruel article bkpinno gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes well again stated that painless death isn cruel but don think stated that all painful executions are cruel think that some are cruel depending the nature and duration the pain but hanging certainly painful you not let the condemned know they are going die anything more than instant guess any death suffocation asphyxiation blood loss would cruel think this includes the gas chamber and drawing and quartering say that any pain that lasts say over twenty seconds would too long but this may arbitrary cutoff suppose hanging not supposed very pleasant believe that actuality not quick and clean however gas chambers can quite non painful heck why not give them good time suffication nitrious oxide private note jennifer fakult this post may contain one more the following sarcasm cycnicism irony humor please aware this possibility and not allow yourself confused and thrown for loop doubt assume all the above the owners this account not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability recognize any the above read your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	books stuff about hard find atheist books deleted perhaps the infiltration fundies onto school boards city councils etc has something with why you can find alternative media
alt.atheism	cults religions bill ray ray engr latech edu wrote james thomas green jgreen trumpet calpoly edu wrote conclusion can shown that there essentially logical argument which clearly differentiates cult from religion challenge anyone produce distinction which clear and can easily knocked down how about this one religion cult which has stood the test time just like history written the winners and not the losers from what seen religions religion just cult that was vile and corrupt was able exert doctrine using political and military measures perhaps koresh withstood the onslaught for another couple months would have started attracting more converts due his strength hence becoming full religion and not just cult carl christensen dept computer science christen astro ocis temple edu temple university curiouser and curiouser philadelphia usa
alt.atheism	nicknames cmtan iss nus tan chade meng dan writes somebody forgotten nickname tan chade meng chinese have nicknames the front the unenlightened one thought your nickname was unenlightened maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don try this home remember post professionally
alt.atheism	asimov stamp article dcs pdc dcs paul crowley writes quoting schnitzi eustis ucf edu mark schnitzius article schnitzi eustis sure all the religious types would get snit due asimov atheism can someone confirm this someone told that asimov converted christianity some point something does anyone have any good quotes what absolutely not way asimov was lifelong atheist and said many times right until his death judging from the many stories told about his own life felt culturally closest judaism which makes sense was born jewish wente llnl gov
alt.atheism	free moral agency dean kaflowitz decay cbnewsj att com wrote think you letting atheist mythology great start realize immediately that you are not interested discussion and are going thump your babble would much prefer answer from healy who seems have reasonable and reasoned approach things say aren you the creationist guy who made lot silly statements about evolution some time ago duh gee then must talking christian mythology now was hoping discuss something with reasonable logical person but all you seem have for your side repetition the same boring mythology seen thousand times before deleting the rest your remarks unless spot something that approaches answer because they are merely repetition some uninteresting doctrine other and contain thought all have congratulate you though bill you wouldn know logical argument bit you the balls such persistent lack function the face repeated attempts assist you learning which have seen this forum and others the past speaks talent that goes well beyond own meager abilities just don seem have that capacity for ignoring outside influences dean kaflowitz dean read your comments you think that merely characterizing argument the same refuting you think that hominum attacks are sufficient make any point other than you disapproval you have any contribution make all bill
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality mark mccullough mccullou snake wisc edu wrote article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes atoms are not objective they aren even real what scientists call atom nothing more than mathematical model that describes certain physical observable properties our surroundings all which subjective jim halat this deserves framing really does atoms aren even real tell then those atoms have seen with electron microscopes are atoms now what are they figments our imaginations the evidence that atoms are real overwhelming but won bother with most evidence the moment you would have believe that what the eye perceives images are actaully there perceived this may interesting thought that electron microscope was used because wavelength light can illuminate any object atomic scale this image have useful resolution wouldn the illuminating sources wavelength have several orders magnitude less than size thing observed atom probablity cloud lower resolutions would give the appearance solidity but seems fairly certain that atom not object any conventional sense obviously not physicist but the question does have ramification philosophic nature anyway just stray thought carry bill
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality mike cobb cobb alexia lis uiuc edu wrote very true length time for discussions creationism evolutionism atheists and christians have been debating since and still debate with unabated passion mike seen referrences creation evolution several times and have question either point view derived from direct observation can either scientific wonder the whole controversy more concerned with the consequences the truth rather than the truth itself both sides seem hold philosophical outcome and can help wondering which came first pointed out elsewhere view human nature makes believe that there way knowing anyhthing objectively all knowledge inherently subjective the context would you take stand based what you actually know true what you want true and how can you tell the difference bill
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote say that what one chooses observe and how the observation interpreted and what significance given depends great deal the values the observer science human activity and such subject the same potential for distortion any other human activity the myth that scientists are above moral influence ethical concern that their knowledge can abstacted whole and pure from nature untainted the biases the scientist nonsense bill this wonderfully phrased assume you understand that your statement also undermining such human constructs religion well kent accept this compliment although always little paranoid when visiting thanks yes know the extent the statements relevence what think human nature not sure undermines either religion atheism since both claim special knowledge about the truth and since such claims are always suspect all can learn from that humans are very arrogant species point that cannot ignore human nature when examining human claims the trick here then find some way abstract our infinitely fallible nature from whatever reality out there can see what there see can think way this can done bill
alt.atheism	what shit shoveler was amusing atheists and robert beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com wrote precisely position newbie tried the point point approach debate with these types wasted both time and lifespan ignoring them not option since they don away and doing would leave one with large stretches complete anonymity this group bob posted here long enough see your name few times but can recall any point point approach anything you contributed but old probably senile and may have just forgotten you could post example your invincible logic might jog memory bill
alt.atheism	free energy technology free energy technology robert mcelwaine physicist ninety hundred years ago everybody knew that heavier than air machine could not possibly fly would violate the laws physics all the experts and authorities said for example simon newcomb declared the demonstration that possible combination known substances known forms machinery and known forms force can united practical machine which man shall fly long distances through the air seems the writer complete possible for the demonstration any physical fact fortunately few smart people such the wright brothers did not accept such pronouncements the final word now take airplanes for granted except when they crash today orthodox physicists and other scientists are saying similar things against several kinds free energy technologies using negative terms such pseudo science and perpetual motion and citing called laws which assert that energy cannot created destroyed law thermodynamics and there always decrease useful energy law thermodynamics the physicists not know how certain things they arrogantly declare that those things cannot done such principles impotence are common orthodox modern science and help cover inconsistencies and contradictions orthodox modern theories free energy inventions are devices which can tap seemingly unlimited supply energy from the universe with out burning any kind fuel making them the perfect solution the world wide energy crisis and its associated pollution degradation and depletion the environment most free energy devices probably not create energy but rather tap into existing natural energy sources various forms induction unlike solar wind devices they need little energy storage capacity because they can tap much energy needed when needed solar energy has the dis advantage that the sun often blocked clouds trees buildings the earth itself reduced haze smog thick atmosphere low altitudes and high latitudes likewise wind speed widely variable and often non existent neither solar nor wind power are suitable directly power cars and airplanes properly designed free energy devices not have such limitations for example least three patents and have far been awarded for motors that run exclusively permanent magnets seemingly tapping into energy circulating through the earth magnetic field the first two require feedback network order self running the third one described detail science mechanics magazine spring amazing magnet powered motor jorma hyypia pages and front cover requires critical sizes shapes orientations and spacings magnets but feedback such motor could drive electric generator reversible heatpump one home year round for free complete descriptive copies patents are each from the patent office jefferson davis hwy arlington correct digit patent number required try getting copies both the article and the patents via your local public university library inter library loan dept second type free energy device such the gray motor patent the tesla coil and the motor inventor joseph newman see science pages taps electro magnetic energy induction from earth resonance about cycles per second plus harmonics they typically have spark gap the circuit which serves synchronize the energy the coils with the energy being tapped important that the total inductance and capacitance the device combine resonate the same frequency earth resonance order maximize the power output this output can also increased centering the spark gap the neutral center strong shaped permanent magnet the case tesla coil slipping toroid choke coil around the secondary coil will enhance output power earth energy fuelless propulsion power systems john bigelow health research box mokelumne hill during the austrian civil engineer named viktor schauberger invented and partially developed implosion turbine german name zokwendle after analyzing erosion and lack erosion differently shaped waterways and developing sophisticated mathematical equations explain described the book breakthrough new free energy sources dan davidson water pumped impeller pump through logarithmic spiral shaped coil tubing until reaches critical velocity the water then implodes longer touching the inside walls the tubing and drives the pump which then converts the pump motor into electric generator the device seems tapping energy from that the earth rotation via the coriolis effect like tornado can also neutralize gravity fourth type free energy device the mcclintock air motor patent which cross between diesel engine has three cylinders with compression ratio and rotary engine with solar and planetary gears burns fuel but becomes self running driving its own air compressor this engine also generates lot heat which could used heat buildings and its very high torque makes ideal for large trucks preventing their slowing down when climbing hills david mcclintock also the real original inventor the automatic transmission differential and wheel drive crystals may someday used supply energy shown the star trek shows perhaps inserting each one between metal capacitor plates and bombarding with beam particles from small radioactive source like that used common household smoke detector one other energy source should mentioned here despite the fact that does not fit the definition free energy bulgarian born american physicist named joseph maglich has invented and partially developed atomic fusion reactor which calls migma which uses non radioactive deuterium fuel available nearly unlimited quantities from sea water does not produce radioactive waste can converted directly into electricity with out energy wasting steam turbines and can constructed small enough power house large enough power city and unlike the tokamaks and laser fusion monstrosities that read about migma works already producing least three watts power for every watt put new times version pages and then there are the cold fusion experiments that have been the news lately originally conducted university utah researchers stanley pons and martin fleischmann some navy researchers the china lake naval weapons center california under the direction chemist melvin miles finally took the trouble collect the bubbles coming from such apparatus had them analyzed with mass spectrometry techniques and found helium which proves that atomic fusion did indeed take place and enough explain the excess heat generated there are good indications that the two called laws thermodynamics are not absolute for example the late physicist dewey larson developed comprehensive general unified theory the physical universe which calls the reciprocal system which describes detail several books such nothing but motion and the universe motion which the physical universe has two distinct halves the material half and anti matter half with continuous cycle matter and energy passing between them with out the heat death predicted thermodynamic laws his theory explains the universe much better than modern orthodox theories including phenomena that orthodox physicists and astronomers are still scratching their heads about and self consistent every way some free energy devices might tapping into that energy flow seemingly converting low quality energy into high quality energy also certain religious organizations such sant mat and eckankar teach their members that the physical universe only the lowest least dozen major levels existence like parallel universes analogous channels described books like the path the masters julian johnson and eckankar the key secret worlds sri paul twitchell for example the next level from the physical universe commonly called the astral plane long time members these groups have learned soul travel into these higher worlds and report conditions there seems plausible that energy could flow down from these higher levels into the physical universe created the boundary between them given the right configuration matter channel this supported many successful laboratory controlled experiments psycho kinesis throughout the world such those described the book psychic discoveries behind the iron curtain terms economics the market has failed inventors not have enough money and other resources fully develop and mass produce free energy equipment and the conventional energy producer have desire because their ted intere the government needed intervene the government does not intervene then the total supply energy resources from the earth will continue decline and will soon run out prices for energy will increase and pollution and its harmful effects including the greenhouse effect acid rain smog radioactive contamination oil spills rape the land strip mining etc will continue increase the government should subsidize research and development free energy inventors and universities subsidize private production until the producers can make their own and subsidize consumption low income consumers free energy hardware the long range effects such government intervention would wide spread and profound the quantity energy demanded from conventional energy producer coal mining companie oil companie and countries electric utilitie etc would drop near zero forcing their employees seek work elsewhere energy resources coal uranium oil and gas would left the ground prices for conventional energy supplies would also drop near zero while the price free energy equipment would start out high but drop supply increases happened with vcr personal computers etc costs producing products that require large quantities energy produce would decrease along with their prices consumers consumers would able realize the opportunity costs paying electric utility bills buying home heating fuel tourism would benefit and increase because travelers would not have spend their money for gasoline for their cars government tax revenue from gasoline and other fuels would have obtained some other way and energy could longer used motive excuse for making war many conventional energy producer would out business but society whole and the earth environment and ecosystems would benefit greatly the people that government should serve rather than the big corporation and bank for more information answers your questions etc please consult cited sources patents articles books altered reproduction and dissemination this important information encouraged robert mcelwaine physics
alt.atheism	christian morality dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote let back say years whatever pretend someone says you someday there will men the moon now remember you still think the world flat this quite extraordinary claim think lewis has argued that medieval people did not all think the world flat however this argument goes both ways pretend someone telling plato that highly probable that people not really have souls their minds and their consciousness are just something their brains make and their brains their body actually ahead their mind even voluntarly actions don think plato would have been happy with this and neither would paul although paul ideas were quite different however you would read what discuss this group and not just preach you would see that there currently much evidence favour these statements the same applies the theory natural selection other sacred cows christianity our origins and human nature don believe spirits devils immortal souls any more than gods the fact can argue the existence god until the end time there really way either prove disprove but there will time when all know the truth hope and believe right and hope and pray that you find your way too you said you believe what you want this what had assumed all along maybe shouldn have said way guess really believe there way but all can plant seeds either they grow they don you might well planting satan seeds ever thought this besides you haven yet explained why must believe blindly without any guiding light all least haven noticed don think this all fair play god part your argument sounds like version pascal wager please read the faq this fallacy discussed there but they won they not planted the holy spirit the nurishment that helps them grow and that comes from god and failed get help from the because had wrong attitude sorry dan but not think this spirit exists people who claim have access just look badly deluded not gifted petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics the truth pihatie finou oulu physics the rule oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu chemistry the game
alt.atheism	free moral agency bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes see that you still can grasp the obvious because your are devious nature can you only find fault with argument misrepresenting gee since you ignored the entire substance substantial post you got lot nerve claiming that don understand what being talked about respond the previous post shut the fuck you really annoying maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don try this home remember post professionally
alt.atheism	free energy technology article apr cnsvax uwec edu mcelwre cnsvax uwec edu writes free energy inventions are devices which can tap seemingly unlimited supply energy from the universe with out burning any kind fuel making them the perfect solution the world wide energy crisis and its associated pollution degradation and depletion the environment give call when you build working model then talk stock options private note jennifer fakult this post may contain one more the following sarcasm cycnicism irony humor please aware this possibility and not allow yourself confused and thrown for loop doubt assume all the above the owners this account not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability recognize any the above read your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	the qur and atheists was jewish settlers demolish mosque gaza article apr doug cae wisc edu kahraman hprisc cae wisc edu gokalp kahraman writes this respect since atheists are dominantly arrogant and claim self control and self ownership they would make pharoahs look like very humble decent people comparison the logic this since own myself others who are like should also own themselves and going further things are self existent and self standing and self living etc yes atheists tend claim self control and self ownership are you saying that theists claim not have self control don think atheists are dominantly arrogant they don claim some god that has supremacy over all mankind now this claim would arrogant but atheists don claim most atheists claim own themselves think any disagreement with this claim self ownership would supremely arrogant john david munch jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu the heart can change full hate love people are allowed base their lives through their hearts anything can happen dangerous situation opinion bobby mozumder describing problems with atheism
alt.atheism	cults religions the media religion and cult have about the same relative connotations government and terrorist group wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	science and theories article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes per various threads science and creationism started dabbling into book called christianity and the nature science moreland don know this book will use your heresay question that had come from one his comments stated that god not necessarily religious term but could used other scientific terms that give explanation for events theories without being proven scientific fact depends how defines god the way understand the meaning that term preclues being used useful way science ideas drawn from understanding that god supernatural precludes from forming scientific assertions that can falsified that where can decide that they are true false within the terms use and useful observations drawn from them some religionists have interest bluring the definitions within science make them more reconcilable and especially subserviant basic way religious dogma this pursuit always fails think got his point can quote the section being vague the examples gave were quarks and continental plates are there explanations science parts theories that are not measurable and themselves can everything quantified measured tested etc reconciliation science with religion involves circumventing the tendancy claim that either pursuit can gain absolute certian knowledge that the domain truth each fundementally limited some way gererally confurs the element uncertainty and limitations human knowledge while allowing for the different concerns these separate pursuits science and religion ask different questions which have imperfect and provisional answers best science distinctly limited where can ask meaningful questions more questions can posed than can answer the basis sacred language the place where words fail and mere assertions disolve contradiction bruce salem
alt.atheism	little too satanic jon livesey writes when they took the time copy the text correctly that includes obvious corruptions well yes this the real mystery the matter and why rather dubious lot the source theories there are number places where the masoretic text the obscure and presumably corrupted these are reproduced exactly from copy copy the dss tend reflect the same errors this would appear tell that least from some point people began copy the texts very exactingly and mechanically the problem don know what they did before that but seems though accurate transmission begins the point which the texts are perceived texts they may added and some situations such the end mark material lost but for the most part there are substantial changes the existing text you basically trying make mountain out molehill some people like use the game telephone metaphor for the transmission the texts this clearly wrong the texts are transmitted accurately wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	albert sabin from wpr atlanta com bill rawlins newsgroups alt atheism organization dgsid atlanta since you have referred the messiah assume you are referring the new testament please detail your complaints mail you don want post first century greek well known and well understood have you considered josephus the jewish historian who also wrote jesus addition the four gospel accounts are very much harmony also well known that the comments josephus relating jesus were inserted badly later editors for the four gospels being harmony the issue jesus you know not what you speak here are few contradictions starting with the trial and continuing through the assension the death judas after the betrayal jesus acts now this man judas purchased field with the reward iniquity and falling headlong burst asunder the midst and all his bowels gushed out matt and judas cast down the pieces silver the temple and departed and went and hanged himself and the chief priests bought with them the potter field what was jesus prediction regarding peter denial before the cock crow matthew before the cock crow twice mark how many times did the cock crow mar and the second time the cock crew and peter called mind the word that jesus said unto him before the cock crow twice thou shalt deny thrice and when thought thereon wept mat then began curse and swear saying know not the man and immediately the cock crew mat and peter remembered the word jesus which said unto him before the cock crow thou shalt deny thrice and went out and wept bitterly luk and peter said man know not what thou sayest and immediately while yet spake the cock crew luk and the lord turned and looked upon peter and peter remembered the word the lord how had said unto him before the cock crow thou shalt deny thrice joh jesus answered him wilt thou lay down thy life for sake verily verily say unto thee the cock shall not crow still thou hast denied thrice joh peter then denied again and immediately the cock crew destruction cities what said was jeremiah was zechariah this interesting because matthew quotes prophesy that was never made not the only time does this either mat then was fulfilled that which was spoken jeremy the prophet saying and they took the thirty pieces silver the price him that was valued whom they the children israel did value zechariah nothing jeremiah remotely like what was the color the robe placed jesus during his trial scarlet matthew purple john the time the crucifiction mark says the third hour but john says the sixth hour noon was when the sentence was passed inscription the cross matthew this jesus the king the jews mark the king the jews luke this the king the jews john jesus nazareth the king the jews what did they give him drink vinegar matthew wine with myrrh mark women the cross matthew said many stood far off including mary magdaline mary the mother james and the mother zebedee children mark and luke speak many far off and mark includes mary magdeline and mary the mother james the less john says that jesus mother stood the cross along with her sister and mary magdalene jesus last words matt and about the ninth hour jesus cried with loud voice saying eli eli lama sabachthani that say god god why hast thou forsaken jesus when cried again with loud voice yielded the ghost luke and when jesus had cried with loud voice said father unto thy hands commend spirit and having said thus gave the ghost john when jesus therefore had received the vinegar said finished and bowed his head and gave the ghost events the crucifiction matthew says that the veil the temple was rent that there was earthquake and that was dark from the sixth the ninth hour that graves opened and bodies the saints arose and went into jeruselem appearing many beating jesus the resurection mark and luke speak darkness and the veil the temple being rent but mention earthquake risen saints john the only one who mentions jesus side being peirced burial jesus matthew says the jews asked pilate for guard prevent the body from being stolen the disciples and for the tomb sealed all this was supposedly done but the other gospels not mention these precautions how long was jesus the tomb depends where you look matthew gives jesus prophesying that will spend three days and three nights the heart the earth and mark has after three days meta treis emeras will rise again far can see from quick look the prophecies have after three days but the post resurrection narratives have the third day time the resurection matthew says sunday dawn mark says the sun was rising and john says was dark who was the empty tomb mat the end the sabbath began dawn toward the first day the week came mary magdalene and the other mary see the sepulchre mar and when the sabbath was past mary magdalene and mary the mother james and salome had bought sweet spices that they might come and anoint him joh the first day the week cometh mary magdalene early when was yet dark unto the sepulchre and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre whom did they see the tomb mat and behold there was great earthquake for the angel the lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone from the door and sat upon mat his countenance was like lightning and his raiment white snow mat and for fear him the keepers did shake and became dead men mat and the angel answered and said unto the women fear not for know that seek jesus which was crucified mar and entering into the sepulchre they saw young man sitting the right side clothed long white garment and they were affrighted luk and came pass they were much perplexed thereabout behold two men stood them shining garments joh and seeth two angels white sitting the one the head and the other the feet where the body jesus had lain belief that the disciples stole jesus body matthew says the guard was paid tell this story but other gospel makes this claim appearences the risen jesus matthew says angel the tomb told the two marys and that jesus also told them tell the disciples meet him galilee the disciples then went mountain previously agreed opon and met jesus there this was his only appearance except the women the tomb matthew only devotes five verses the visit with the disciples mark says that jesus walked with two the disciples the country and that they told the rest the disciples who refused believe later appeared the disciples mealtime luke says two followers went the same day that jesus rose from the dead emmaus village eight miles from jeruselem and there jesus jioned them but was unrecognised while they ate meal together that evening they finally recognised jesus whereopon dissapeared returning once jeruselem they told the disciples their experience and suddenly jesus appeared among them frightening them they thought was spirit jesus then ate some fish and honey and then preached them john says jesus appeared the disciples the evening the day arrose jeruselem where they were hiding breathed the holy ghost opon them but thomas was not present and refused believe eight days later jesus joined the disciples again the same place and this time convinced thomas once more jesus made appearance the disciples the sea tiberias but again was not recognised after telling them cast their netson the other side the boat jesus becomes known them and prepares bread and fish for them they all eat together and converse the book acts further adds the confusion says that jesus showed himself the apostles for period days after his resurection thus contradicting matthew mark luke and john and spoke them things pertaining the kingdom god and when had spoken these things while they beheld was taken and cloud recieved him out their sight and while they looked steadfastly toward heaven went two men stood them white apparel which also said men galilee why stand gazing into heaven this same jesus which taken from you into heaven shall comein like manneras have seen him into heaven acts paul outdoes every other authority saying that jesus was seen persons between the time the resurection and the assension although does not say where also claims that himself one born out due time also saw jesus cor the ascension matthew says nothing about mark casually says that jesus was recieved into heaven after was finished talking with the disciples jeruselem luke says jesus led the desciples bethany and that while blessed them was parted from them and carried into heaven john says nothing about acts contradicts all the above see previous section when second coming mat verily say unto you this generation shall not pass till all these things fulfilled mar verily say unto you that this generation shall not pass till all these things done luk verily say unto you this generation shall not pass away till all fulfilled thessalonians how many apostles were office between the resurection and ascention corinthians matthew minus one from acts mathias not elected until after resurrection mat then the eleven disciples went away into galilee into mountain where jesus had appointed them ascend heaven and elijah went whirlwind into heaven kings man hath ascended heaven but that came down from heaven the son man john you can see there are number contradictions the account the trial crucifiction and resurection jesus these are good witnesses you would think that they could get some these important details right fact cannot find very many points where they agree you would think that they could least agree some the points they were supposedly observing because the fact that there much contradiction and error the story the resurection presented cannot taken literal truth due the nature the story doubt should taken any sort truth alan
alt.atheism	albert sabin from wpr atlanta com bill rawlins newsgroups alt atheism organization dgsid atlanta the problem that most scientists exclude the possibility the supernatural the question origins this fair premise utterly reject the hypothesis that science the highest form truth better than the crap that the creationists put out far all they have been able manage distortions and half truths when they are not taking quotes out context some these called human like creatures were apes some were humans some were fancifully reconstructed from fragments the genetic code has shown more about how man realted primates that the fossil record little detail the creationists try and ignore good deeds not justify person god sight atonement jesus needed atone for sin who says your bible would surprised any christian followed all the rules the bible most them just pick and choose according the local biases point god the creator look like agree where your proof how you know was your god send you some info via mail regards bill why not post them would interested seeing them myself alan
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality theory creationism theistic view the theory creationism there are many others stated genesis the beginning god created the heavens and the earth and which order creation you accept the story creation one the many places the bible where the story contradicts itself the following example gen and god made the beast the earth after his kind and cattle after their kind and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind and god saw that was good gen and god said let make man our image after our likeness and let them have dominion over the fish the sea and over the fowl the air and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth gen and the lord god said not good that the man should alone will make him help meet for him gen and out the ground the lord god formed every beast the field and every fowl the air and brought them unto adam see what would call them and whatsoever adam called every living creature that was the name thereof even your bible cannot agree how things were created why should believe alan
alt.atheism	some thoughts from house helios usq edu ron house newsgroups alt atheism organization university southern queensland bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first want start right out and say that christian know shouldn get involved but bit deleted the book says that jesus was either liar was crazy modern day koresh was actually who said was rest rant deleted this standard argument for fundies can you spot the falicy the statement arguing from the assumption that jesus actually existed far they have not been able offer real proof that existance most them try using the very flawed writings josh mcdowell and others prove but those writers use very flawed sources they are real sources all some are not when will they ever learn real research instead believing the drivel sold the christian bookstores righto dan try this one with your cornflakes the book says that muhammad was either liar was crazy modern day mad mahdi was actually who said was some reasons why wouldn liar are follows who would die for lie wouldn people able tell was liar people gathered around him and kept doing many gathered from hearing seeing how his son law made the sun stand still call fool but believe did make the sun stand still niether was lunatic would more than entire nation drawn someone who was crazy very doubtful fact rediculous for example anyone who drawn the mad mahdi obviously fool logical people see this right away therefore since wasn liar lunatic must have been the real thing nice rebutal alan
alt.atheism	help you god court bobbe vice robert beauchaine yayg pontificated guess don understand the problem never had any problem swearing and using the name god the same sentence comes quite naturally matter facxt would guess that you either mean that you don have problem swearing aligance non existant being that you are being deliberatily dense considering what group this doesn come quite naturally nonbelievers such myself even followers other religions would you say would quite natural you were forced swear allah budda james green jgreen oboe calpoly edu all times and all nations the priest has been hostile liberty thomas jefferson
alt.atheism	alleged deathbed conversions was asimov stamp article sheafferc brs netcom com sheaffer netcom com robert sheaffer writes had happen the old allegation the deathbed conversion the noted unbeliever other examples what all these deathbed conversion claims have common that they are utterly unsubstantiated and almost certainly untrue would not too quick say that they are almost certainly untrue even strong minded people may fall back childhood indoctrination grasp straws other strange things when faced with extreme suffering not mention physiological problems which may lead diminished mental capacity the risk restarting old argument and accusations appeal authority remind readers what posted while back kind obituary for the late atheist albert sabin old interview rebroadcast public radio just after his death told about time few years before when was stricken with very serious illness admitted having cried out god while critically ill and respirator turned out recovered and lived several more years after his recovery attributed this early indoctrination don say couldn happen you that hasn happened others even you are one the few people who have experienced things like this people are different admire sabin for admitting his human weakness that instance would not think less asimov for similar weakness nevertheless agree that these reports are unsubstantiated and may well untrue any case they are not evidence for anything besides the power early indoctrination and human frailty bill mayne
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes deletion that was the original answer while does not say that has the head necessarily its ass would meaningless and pointless was not insinuated don see header referring bob the poster whom was responding distinctly remember thinking was responding you when wrote this which case would make apologies but the event that was fact responding bob hereby apologize bob for insinuating such thing sorry bob the other hand could that ben has his head far his ass that can tell himself from bob sorry gregg was answer post mine and you are quite fond using abusing language whenever you think your religion misrepresented the way have trouble telling apart from bob beauchaine still wait for your answer that the quran allows you beat your wife into submission you were quite upset about the claim that was more correct you said wasn asked you about what your consequences were case would the quran but you have simply ceased respond that thread can that you have found out the meantime that the holy book what are your consequences now was your being upset just show you simple inherit your morals from book suddenly now correct say that the words muhammad reflect the primitive machism his society have you spent your time with your new gained freedom benedikt
alt.atheism	alleged deathbed conversions was asimov stamp article panix com carlf panix com carl fink writes sheafferc brs netcom com sheaffer netcom com robert sheaffer writes deletion had happen the old allegation the deathbed conversion the noted unbeliever seem recall similar claims being made about voltaire mencken darwin ingersoll etc indeed the literary hoax attributed nietzsche sister and portrays him trembling fear before divine judgment and was recently issued amok books with introduction lutheran professor telling why should take seriously what all these deathbed conversion claims have common that they are utterly unsubstantiated and almost certainly untrue perhaps the least believable and most infurating alleged conversion was that tom paine reported like most only his devout relatives asimov was very unlikely convert christianity his deathbed return judaism perhaps did revert childhood training but christianity the good doctor would more likely have converted hinduism isaac asimov read creationist books read the bible had ample opportunity kneel before his creator and savior refused fact sent out strong promotional letter urging support the american humanist association shortly before died excerpt from ken ham asimov meets his creator back genesis june included acts facts vol june from the institute for creation research this one the most offensive articles they ever published but least argues against deathbed conversion there part the article even worse than what just quoted which excerpt from reader letter says that asimov burning hell now then certainly has had degree change his former beliefs about creation and the creator post deathbed conversion jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university arizona tucson
comp.graphics	quicktime performance was rumours about with all the discussion about observed playback speeds with quicktime the effects scaling and thought some more tests first all felt that original speed test was perhaps less than realistic the movie had been using only had frames was version the very first movie created with the compact video compressor decided something little longer would give closer real world results for better for worse pulled out copy space odyssey that had recorded off while back about fifteen minutes into the movie there sequence where the earth shuttle approaching the space station specifically digitized portion about seconds duration zooming the rotating space station figured this would give reasonable amount movement between frames increase the differences between frames digitized only frames per second give total frames captured the raw footage resolution pixels with the spigot card centris quarter size resolution from pal source then imported into premiere and put through the compact video compressor keeping the fps frame rate created two versions the movie one scaled resolution the other resolution used the default quality setting premiere and specified key frame every ten frames then ran the movie through the same raw speed test program used for the results been reporting earlier result playback rate over frames per second that right was getting much higher result than with that first short test movie just for fun copied the movie external hard disk quantum and ran from there this time the playback rate was only about frames per second obviously the internal hard disk also quantum significant contributor the speed playback modified speed test program allow the specification optional scaling factors and tried playing back the movie scaled size this time the playback speed was over fps clearly the poster who observed poor performance scaled playback was seeing quicktime action not try tests with quicktime but don think entirely compatible with centris and system unscaled the playback rate for the movie was over fps the other thing tried was saving versions the movie with preferred playback rates greater than and seeing how well they played from within movieplayer with quicktime normal synchronized playback preferred rate fps didn work too well the playback was very jerky compare this with the raw speed test which achieved fps with ease can believe that quicktime synchronization code would add this much overhead think the slowdown was coming from the mac system task switching preferred rate fps seemed work fine couldn see any evidence stutter fps think could see slight stutter but with four key frames every second was hard tell guess could try recreating the movies with longer interval between the key frames make the stutter more noticeable course this will also improve the compression slightly which should speed the playback performance even more lawrence oliveiro fone computer services dept fax university waikato electric mail ldo waikato hamilton new zealand gmt
comp.graphics	icn msdos pbm pgm ppm format have many icons iconedit and pbicon format and would like convert them pbm pgm ppm format you know the formats iconedit pbicon thank for your help rene kiwi iis ethz
comp.graphics	bit graphics howdy all oehler yar wisc edu wonko the sane writes was recently talking possible employer mine and made reference bit graphics computer image processing system seem remember being called image something akin that anyway claimed had bit color bit alpha channel that bits info what could that possibly for specifically the bit color that trillion colors many more than the human eye can resolve this anti aliasing thing this just some magic number make work better with certain processor hmm bit aye well beats bit design for thee sake ellegance bit means bits per primary colour the colours bit misleading makes more sense see possible shades pure red this might actually make some sense since shades red bit colours may produce visible jumps intensity then again byte per primary colour for each pixel the most elegant way doing colour graphics because leaves such tidy and fast program code take care bram flying nack the trick bram stolk stolk fwi uva throw yourself the ground dept maths computer science and miss douglas adams university amsterdam dont use windoze prefer linux
comp.graphics	help need bits viewer looking for program which able display bits images are using sun sparc equipped with parallax graphics board running thanks advance
comp.graphics	human body data sets needed urgently all looking for datasets human body head any the popular formats doing presentation tomorrow which could greatly enhanced bringing this human factor looked around the net with sucess far anyone got any ideas also appreciate info the location datasets for the uss enterprise any model thanks advance ronan
comp.graphics	why does illustrator autotrace poorly mac utkvx bitnet richard mcdougald writes article vmcbrt diablo uucp diablo uucp cboesel charles boesel writes these application softwares using but even how come one hasn been written knowledge mean even hijaak one the commercial industry standards file conversion hasn attempted yet adobe streamline has been out four couple years does much better job than the autotracing functions which are built into illustration programs course higher resolution bitmap will produce more accurate trace the problem that run into though that when creates detailed trace produces way more points than are necessary trace something manually use many less points the problem with this produces big files which slow everything down especially printing chuck
comp.graphics	wanted scott leatham microsoft hello there few days ago got mail concerning bitmap stretching from scott leatham microsoft redmond usa really would like answer back him but have lost his email address scott anybody that knows his email address reads this please mail his address can answer his mail please mail efd lth thanks tomas
comp.graphics	pov problems with tga outputs remember that the unix versions pov don create tga but qrt file format output default needed make tga brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.graphics	pov ray problem please help what about qrttoppm file dis ppmtotga file tga brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.graphics	why does illustrator autotrace poorly mac utkvx bitnet richard mcdougald writes since there not really such thing decent raster vector conversion program this tracing technique about simple stuff like logos etc pretty well while more complicated stuff goes haywire the first and only thing ever tried auto trace was piece uscg nautical chart using adobe illustrator wanted get the outline the coast for western long island sound was simultaneously suprised how good job did and disappointed how poorly did suspect what gave was very difficult thing not only the coastline very irregular but overlaid the chart are numerous sets gridlines not only lattitude and longitude but loran grids well the most common mistake make was whenever the coastline was roughly parallel and tangent grid line would take off following the gridline instead the coast think the best improvement would some sort interactive algorithm that would let you step and say dummy you going the wrong way steve reisberg friend mine few years back did his doctoral work analysing electron micrographs filimentous phage virii good chunk the work was writing program take digitized micrograph and automatically trace the centerline the virus particles this essentially the same problem that illustrator tries solve with its auto trace tool some respects the problem steve worked was harder since was trying quantitative analysis the virus structure and finding good centerline was only the first step but step which all future analysis depended however other respects was easier problem since the program could written with lot knowledge about what the virus particles were supposed look like and the analysis could restricted those particles which happend relatively straight clean and well imaged you don always have that freedom auto tracing real life images any case gave some insight into just how difficult this problem solve the general case steve longer with and his wife disappeared while vacation hawaii couple years after they graduated their last known location was hiking densely wooded mountainous area while bodies were ever found they are presumed have been the victim some sort fall accident the woods roy smith roy nyu edu hippocrates project department microbiology coles nyu school medicine first avenue new york this never happened bart simpson
comp.graphics	rumours about johnm spudge lonestar org john munsch writes article lot rapnbh viamar uucp rutgers viamar kmembry writes read issue wired magazine has long article the hype noticed that every article talks with the designers and how great but never show any pictures the output least pictures that one can understand gamepro magazine published pictures few months ago and computer chronicles program that syndicated public stations around the nation spent several minutes when was shown ces was very impressive what can real time john munsch the april edition mix magazine carries story which includes pictures the unit schematic what inside and some indication from the people where they intend and what stages mix trade rag aimed the professional sound engineering community the schematic shows central dma engine connecting and mediating between two graphics animation processors bit bus bit risc processor with math processor video decomp module control port expansion port where hangs its double fast player dram optional video port for editing video and the outbound side vram video processor chain parallel with dsp sound chain they promise red book quality audio full fps video and future connection path your via expansion card not informed enough have opinion about the various means and methods discussed here the article written philip lancie does cover the other machines mentioned this thread come from the tcp world and see tremendous potential for bringing connectedness the educated consumer seems have the right business partners make this happen hope this helps david shute email dks world std com
comp.graphics	real earlier today read for real animation ray tracing software and looked very convincing however don own amiga and began wonder there version has anyone seen used real for dos rauno rene haapaniemi every word are true haapanatie except for those that are lies oulu reneh otol douglas adams
comp.graphics	hallusion info has anyone seen hallusions you can buy poster them and looks like simple dot pattern when you first look but you focus behind you see picture looking for program that generates these pictures there company texas that makes them but doubt they giving the program away any help would appreciated
comp.graphics	cgm something preferably pcx does anybody know about converter from cgm pcx anything else more common spent some time searching the archives with luck could you email your responses thx advance mike jupiter sun csd unb
comp.graphics	kubota kenai denali does anyone have any real experience with the kubota kenai denali series graphics workstations they pretty much blow the pants off sgi machines and sun machines the same price point which about bucks real nice stuff but only seen the stuff paper wondering there anything not like the specs are too massive get into here but summary desired could coaxed into uploading the spec sheet brian
comp.graphics	there ftp achive for usgs terrain dat try spectrum xerox com pub map dem
comp.graphics	real rauno haapaniemi raunoh otol wrote earlier today read for real animation ray tracing software and looked very convincing yes looks like very good indeed however don own amiga and began wonder there version nope regards email mattias matt dah dsv love
comp.graphics	fast polygon routine needed osprey cso uiuc edu lucas adamski writes article pdxgate uucp idr rigel pdx edu ian romanick writes what kind polygons shaded texturemapped more comes into play with fast routines than just polygons would nice know exaclty what system vga start but what processor and few the specifics the implementation you need give more info you want get any answers don want texture mapped cause did asked for them just simple and fast routine filled polygons for the processor for minimum maybe can find good one for ideally want polyn function that can clip user defined viewport and write arbitrary location memory course the chances for game that and you have listed the characteristics that you are looking for think you may have left out few important parameters the polygons are all convex they have less than sides you are drawing meshes walls doors etc believe that the algorithms you can get that will only draw convex polygons can much more efficient than those that can draw concave self intersecting polygons this efficiency can largely attributed the fact that simple convex polygons only have left and right edge each scan line complex figure type polygons can bit trickier the less than sides specification especially very small number like allow othe optimisations made thus for high speed game application think you are looking for code that exploits and hence limited drawing simple convex polygons finding something like that are pretty remote guess need the source with and guess would need asm otherwise too slow seen some polygon routines and they all been waaay too slow its for vector graphics program been hunting high and low may have been that they were very general purpose algorithms you limit yourself four sided simple convex polygons think you might suprised how fast algorithm with asm block move fill each scan line might actually for polyn function asm and can find one anywhere that can use found one two polyn functions but asm pretty bad won even try rewrite them lucas
comp.graphics	apr comp graphics frequently asked questions faq archive name graphics faq this message automatically posted once week effort cut down the repetitive junk comp graphics was last changed apr you have answers other frequently asked questions that you would like included this posting please send mail you don want see this posting every week please add the subject line your kill file thank you your copy the faq more than couple weeks old you may want seek out the most recent version the latest version this faq always available the archive site pit manager mit edu alias rtfm mit edu pub usenet news answers graphics faq john john grieggs grieggs jpl devvax jpl nasa gov johng portal com last update apr sorry haven posted this for couple weeks but was called out town due death the family this reality folks what new siggraph online bibliography project spencer cgrg ohio state edu grieggs jpl devvax jpl nasa gov contents general references for graphics questions drawing three dimensional objects two dimensional screen quantizing bit images down bits converting color into grayscale quantizing grayscale black white rotating raster image arbitrary angle free image manipulation software format documents for tiff iff biff nff off fits etc converting between vector formats how get pixar films how draw circle bezier spline curve how order standards documents how ftp email how tell whether point within planar polygon how tessellate sphere specific references ray tracing and global illumination siggraph information online siggraph panels proceedings available graphics mailing lists specific references file formats what about gif what morphing how ray trace height fields how find the area polygon how join acm siggraph where can find mri and scan volume data specific references spatial data structures including quadtrees and octrees where can get program plot data data specific references pex and phigs siggraph online bibliography project general references for graphics questions computer graphics principles and practice foley van dam feiner hughes addison wesley isbn procedural elements for computer graphics david rogers mcgraw hill isbn mathematical elements for computer graphics david rogers and alan adams mcgraw hill isbn three dimensional computer graphics alan watt addison wesley isbn introduction ray tracing andrew glassner academic press isbn graphics gems andrew glassner academic press isbn graphics gems james arvo academic press isbn graphics gems iii david kirk academic press isbn with ibm disk with mac disk digital image warping george wolberg ieee computer society press monograph isbn digital image processing rafael gonzalez paul wintz addison wesley isbn programmer geometry adrian bowyer john woodwark butterworths isbn pbk automatic mail handler brown university allows users computer graphics principles and practice foley van dam feiner and hughes obtain text errata and information distribution the software packages described the book also users can send the authors feedback report text errors and software bugs make suggestions and submit exercises receive information describing how you can use the mail handler simply mail graphtext brown edu and put the word help the subject line use the subject line software distribution receive information specifically concerning the software packages srgp and sphigs errata for introduction ray tracing available wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics books introtort errata errata for digital image warping the same directory digital image warping errata all code from the graphics gems series available via anonymous ftp from princeton edu look the directory pub graphics graphicsgems for the various volumes gems gemsii gemsiii and get the readme file first errata graphics gems and graphics gems available wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics books list computer graphics computational geometry and image processing journals available from juhana kouhia tut drawing three dimensional objects two dimensional screen the simple answer you divide the depth for more verbose explanation see any the above references starting with the foley van dam feiner hughes computer graphics book certainly good start chapter viewing then read chapter visible surface determination for more information chapter for shading chapter for clipping and branch out from there quantizing bit images down bits find copy color image quantization for frame buffer display paul heckbert siggraph proceedings page there are other algorithms but this one works well and fairly simple implementations are included most raster toolkits see item below variant method described graphics gems note that the code from the graphics gems series all available from ftp site described above check out john bradley diversity algorithm which incorporated into the package and described the back the manual the imagemagick package see section for where contains another quantizing algorithm which presented doing better job than the other algorithms but slower there also implementation wan wong and prusinkiewicz algorithm for multidimensional data clustering transactions mathematical software vol june avialable princeton edu pub graphics colorquant shar this code modified form appears the utah raster toolkit well converting color into grayscale the ntsc formula luminosity red green blue quantizing grayscale black white the only reference you need for this stuff digital halftoning robert ulichney mit press isbn but before you off and start coding check out the image manipulation software mentioned item below all the packages mentioned can some form gray conversion rotating raster image arbitrary angle the obvious but wrong method loop over the pixels the source image transform each coordinate and copy the pixel the destination this wrong because leaves holes the destination instead loop over the pixels the destination image apply the reverse transformation the coordinates and copy that pixel from the source this method quite general and can used for any one one mapping not just rotation you can add anti aliasing doing sub pixel sampling however there much faster method with antialising included which involves doing three shear operations the method was originally created for the raster toolkit see below implementation also present pbmplus reference fast algorithm for raster rotation alan paeth awpaeth watcgl waterloo edu graphics interface vancouver article the toolkit appears the same journal updated version the rotation paper appears graphics gems see section under the original title free image manipulation software there are number toolkits for converting from one image format another doing simple image manipulations such size scaling plus the above mentioned color gray gray conversions here are pointers some them john bradley based image display manipulation and format conversion package displays many image formats and permits editing gif files among others the program was updated see the file contrib tar export lcs mit edu pbmplus jef poskanzer comprehensive format conversion and image manipulation package the latest version always available via anonymous ftp ftp lbl gov pbmplus tar wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics packages pbmplus pbmplus tar and export lcs mit edu contrib pbmplus tar raster toolkit alan paeth awpaeth watcgl uwaterloo provides portable and efficient format and related toolkit the format versatile supporting pixels arbitrary channels components and bit precisions while allowing compression and machine byte order independence the kit contains more than tools with extensive support image manipulation digital halftoning and format conversion previously distributed tape the university waterloo ftp version will appear someday utah rle toolkit conversion and manipulation package similar pbmplus available via ftp utah edu pub urt princeton edu pub graphics urt and freebie engin umich edu pub urt fuzzy pixmap manipulation michael mauldin mlm cmu edu conversion and manipulation package similar pbmplus version available via ftp cmu edu usr mlm ftp fbm tar ftp net pub fbm tar and ucsd edu graphics fbm tar img software set paul raveling raveling venera isi edu reads and writes its own image format displays screen and does some image manipulations version available via ftp export lcs mit edu contrib img tar and venera isi edu pub img tar along with large collection color images xim image manipulator philip thompson does essential interactive image manipulations and uses and the osf motif toolkit for the interface supports images and bit formats reads writes and converts from gif xwd xbm tiff rle xim and other formats writes level postscript other utilities and image application library are included not paint package available via ftp from gis mit edu xloadimage jim frost madd std com reads images various formats and displays them screen available via ftp export lcs mit edu contrib xloadimage and your nearest comp sources archive xli grame gill updated xloadimage with numerous improvements both speed and the number formats supported available the same places xloadimage contrib tape comp sources archives tiff software sam leffler sam okeeffe berkeley edu nice portable library for reading and writing tiff files plus few tools for manipulating them and reading other formats available via ftp ucbvax berkeley edu pub tiff tar ftp net graphics tiff tar xtiff tool for viewing tiff file was written handle many different kinds tiff files possible while remaining simple portable and efficient xtiff illustrates some common problems with building pixmaps and using different visual classes distributed part sam leffler libtiff package and also available export lcs mit edu ftp net and comp sources xtiff was announced includes xlib and versions alv sun specific image toolkit version posted comp sources sun dec also available via email alv users request bris popi image manipulation language version posted comp sources misc dec imagemagick package for display and interactive manipulation images includes tools for image conversion annotation compositing animation and creating montages imagemagick can read and write many the more popular image formats available via ftp export lcs mit edu contrib imagemagick tar khoros huge meg graphical development environment based khoros components include visual programming language code generators for extending the visual language and adding new application packages the system interactive user interface editor interactive image display package extensive library image and signal processing routines and plotting packages available via ftp pprg eece unm edu pub khoros laboimage sunview based image processing and analysis package includes more than image manipulation processing and measurement routines line help plus tools such image editor color table editor and several biomedical utilities available via anonymous ftp ads com pub vision list archive shareware laboimage tar the san diego supercomputer center image tools software tools for reading writing and manipulating raster images binaries for some machines available via anonymous ftp sdsc edu sdscpub the independent jpeg group has written package for reading and writing jpeg files ftp ftp net graphics jpeg jpegsrc tar don forget set binary mode when you ftp tar files for you milnet folks who still don have name servers the addresses are ads com utah edu coral jcu edu export lcs mit edu freebie engin umich edu ftp lbl gov ftp net gis mit edu gondwana ecr karazm math edu marsh curtin edu nic funet fir ftp ncsa uiuc edu cmu edu pit manager mit edu pprg eece unm edu princeton edu sdsc edu ucbvax berkeley edu venera isi edu weedeater math yale edu wuarchive wustl edu zamenhof rice edu please not post mail messages saying can ftp could someone mail this there are number automated mail servers that will send you things like this response message see item below for details some also the newsgroup alt graphics pixutils specifically for discussion software like this you may find useful information there format documents for tiff iff biff nff off fits etc you almost certainly don need these read the above item free image manipulation software get one more these packages and look through them chances are excellent that the image converter you were going write already there but you still want one the format documents many such files are available anonymous ftp from zamenhof rice edu directory pub graphics formats these files were collected off the net and are believed correct this archive includes pixel formats and two and three dimensional object formats the future this archive uncertain the moment mark hall foo rice edu will apparently longer maintaining second graphics file format archive now being actively maintained quincey koziol koziol ncsa uiuc edu the latest version exists ftp ncsa uiuc edu misc file formats graphics formats apparently neither these complete you might want check both fits stands for flexible image transport system file format most often used astronomy despite the name can contain not only images but other things well there regular monthly fits basics and information posting sci astro fits read you want know more converting between vector formats lot people ask about converting from hpgl postscript macdraw cgm whatever important understand that this very different problem from the image format conversions item converting one image format another fairly easy problem since once you get past all the file header junk pixel pixel the basic objects are the same for all image formats this not for vector formats the basic objects circles ellipses drop shadowed pattern filled round cornered rectangles etc vary from one format another except extremely restricted cases simply not possible one one conversion between vector formats there software for converting and from cgm files ftp psc edu the contributor states that runs unix windows and possibly the mac better more specific blurb would most welcome the other hand quite possible close approximation rendering image from one format using the primitives from another far know one has put together general toolkit such converters but two different hpgl postscript converters have been posted comp sources misc check the index your nearest archive site related frequent question how convert from some vector format bitmapped image from postscript sun raster format hpgl bitmap for example some the commercial postscript clones for allow you render disk file well printer also the postscript interpreters the next box and sun news can used render file you clever but general the answer however someone were put together vector vector conversion toolkit adding vector raster converter would trivial gnu ghostscript from the fsf current version includes drivers for both ppm and gif format files thus can used postscript ppm postscript gif filter implements essentially all postscript level and alot display postscript and level how get pixar films the various john lasseter pixar computer animated shorts are available video tape you can order them from direct cinema limited film individual price institutional price luxo red dream tin toy knickknack luxo red dream tin toy all tapes are vhs ntsc add tape for pal format also available tin toy shirt knickknack shirt includes glasses for individual orders add for the first tape shirt for each additional tape shirt for institutional orders add for the first tape for each additional tape foreign shipping add tape shirt call international fax charge your credit card call first verify prices and availability just write direct cinema limited street santa monica allan braunsdorf has this say siggraph they were selling tape with all four shorts for that was sale price you can get for slightly more than that normally maybe believe available from renderman retail pixar address pixar west cutting blvd richmond fax you can obtain video directly from pixar which contains luxo red dream tin toy and knicknack for plus for shipping they will take your order over the phone via fax with major credit card ordered mine just last week and received several days later don expect able rent copy from your local video store according the license agreement printed the back cover the case cannot rented how draw circle bezier spline curve the short answer you can unless you use rational spline you can only approximate circle the approximation may look acceptable but sensitive scale magnify the scale and the error approximation magnifies deviations from circularity that were not visible the small can become glaring the large you want the job right consult the article menagerie rational spline circles leslie piegl and wayne tiller ieee computer graphics and applications volume number september pages for rough non rational approximations consult the book computational geometry for design and manufacture faux and pratt ellis horwood publishers halsted press john wiley for the best known non rational approximations consult the article good approximation circles curvature continuous bezier curves tor dokken morten daehlen tom lyche and knut morken computer aided geometric design volume numbers combined june pages elsevier science publishers north holland how order standards documents the american national standards institute sells ansi standards and also iso international standards their sales office mailing address broadway helps you have the complete name and number some useful numbers know cgm computer graphics metafile iso gks graphical kernel system ansi phigs programmer hierarchical interactive graphics system ansi iges asme ansi language bindings are often separate but related numbers for example the gks fortran binding standards progress are made available key milestones solicit comments from the graphical public this includes you ansi can let you know where order them most are available from global engineering how ftp email there are number sites that archive the usenet sources newsgroups and make them available via email query system you send message automated server saying something like send comp sources unix fbm and few hours days later you get the file the mail addition there least one ftp mail server send mail ftpmail decwrl dec com saying help and will tell you how use note that this service has times been turned off due abuse how tell whether point within planar polygon consider ray originating the point interest and continuing infinity crosses odd number polygon edges along the way the point within the polygon the ray crosses even number edges the point either outside the polygon within interior hole formed from intersecting polygon edges this idea known the trade the jordan curve theorem see eric haines article glassner ray tracing book above for more information including treatment special cases another method sum the absolute angles from the point all the vertices the polygon the sum the point inside the sum the point outside however this method about order magnitude slower than the previous method because evaluating the trigonometric functions usually quite costly code for both methods plus barycentric triangle testing can found the ray tracing news vol available from princeton edu pub graphics rtnews rtnv how tessellate sphere one simple way recursive subdivision into triangles the base the recursion octahedron and then each level divides each triangle into four smaller ones jon leech leech unc edu has posted nice routine called sphere that generates the coordinates available for ftp ftp lbl gov and princeton edu specific references ray tracing and global illumination rick speer maintains cross indexed ray tracing bibliography highlights this edition more than citations spanning the period from through november papers from all siggraph graphics interface eurographics international and ausgraph proceedings through december iii all citations keyworded for easy lookup cross indices keyword and author glossary the keywords used the bib the form postscript file the printout pages long below list ftp sites and the dirs that contain the file named speer raytrace bib and compressed most sites site dir wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics bib bib speer karazm math edu pub graphics gondwana ecr pub papers nic funet pub sci papers graphics coral jcu edu graphics papers eric haines erich eye com maintains ray tracing and radiosity global illumination bibliographies these are refer format and can searched electronically simple awk script search for keywords included with each the bibliographies are available most the sites listed above and the most current versions are maintained princeton edu pub graphics papers raybib and radbib tom wilson wilson ucf edu has collected over abstracts from ray tracing related research papers and books the information essentially plaintext and latex and troff formatting programs are included this collection available most the sites above rtabs siggraph information online from steve cunningham and ralph orlick acm siggraph announces its online information site siggraph org this site now provides siggraph information via both anonymous ftp and electronic mail archive server the anonymous ftp service very standard and the ftp directory includes both conference and publications subdirectories retrieve information electronic mail send mail archive server siggraph org and the subject the body the message include the message send followed the topic and subtopic you wish good place start with the command send index which will give you date list available information siggraph panels proceedings available from steve cunningham and bob judd acm siggraph announces the availability the siggraph panels proceedings the siggraph org site the proceedings are available three formats text ascii rtf rich text format suitable for many word processors word word for the macintosh they may retrieved from siggraph org two ways anonymous ftp change one the directories publications panels proceedings text rtf word the text and rtf files may downloaded ascii mode while the word files are stored macbinary format and must downloaded binary mode each directory contains table contents file toc that describes the contents each panel file electronic mail send mail archive server siggraph org you can retrieve either the text rtf files suggest that you first retrieve the index files putting one the messages send panel txt index send panel rtf index the subject body the message you will get the necessary information retrieve the actual transcript files graphics mailing lists there are variety graphics related mailing list out there each covering either single product single topic have been active participant one these for some time now and find the focus and expertise which can brought bear isolated topic nothing short amazing please send the appropriate information you have any others you would like see added name imagine mailing list description discussion forum for users the imagine rendering and animation package impulse inc platforms amiga ibm subscription imagine request email paramax com posting imagine email paramax com name dctv mailing list description discussion forum for users the digital creations dctv box software and file formats platforms amiga subscription dctv request nova purdue edu posting dctv nova purdue edu name rayshade users mailing list description discussion forum for users the rayshade raytracer platforms most unix boxes amiga mac ibm subscription rayshade request princeton edu posting rayshade users princeton edu name lightwave software for toaster mailing list description discussion forum for users lightwave the video toaster modelling and rendering package platforms amiga subscription lightwave request bobsbox rent com with subscribe lightwave your message posting lightwave bobsbox rent com name pov mailing list description discussion forum for dkbtrace and pov renderers platforms unix subscription listserv trearn bitnet posting dkb trearn bitnet name mailing list for massive parallel rendering description same platforms unix subscription render request icase edu posting render icase edu specific references file formats graphics file formats david kay and john levine windcrest mcgraw hill isbn paper isbn hardcover isbn paper comments formats software this good imho prefer books which are non platform dependent questions about this book may sent gbook iecc cambridge what about gif gif stands for graphics interchange format portable and usable upon wide variety platforms quite limited some ways yes the keeper the faq has some opinions after all and fact don like much however looks like the most frequently asked question which was not previously covered this list the following list newsgroups and the like where one could find out about gif subject alt binaries pictures faq general info subject alt binaries pictures faq specific info newsgroups alt binaries pictures alt binaries pictures misc alt binaries pictures utilities alt binaries pictures fractals alt binaries pictures fine art news answers available the indicated usenet newsgroup via anonymous ftp from pit manager mit edu the files pub usenet news answers pictures faq part pub usenet news answers pictures faq part also available from mail server pit manager mit edu sending mail message containing any all send usenet news answers pictures faq part send usenet news answers pictures faq part send message containing help get general information about the mail server also you could check out the resources described sections and above for more information what morphing warping the deformation image mapping each pixel new location morphing blending from one image object another one valerie hall has written excellent introduction warping and morphing this available for anonymous ftp from marsh curtin edu the directory pub graphics bibliography morph there are three files morph intro postscript version many pictures morph intro txt text version responses responses morphing questions the files are compressed you must use binary transfer and uncompress them afterwards how ray trace height fields height fields are special case ray tracing they have number uses such terrain rendering and some optimization possible thus they get their own faq section note that further references can doubt located via the ray tracing bibs section above the following paper seems the definitive reference kenton musgrave grid tracing fast ray tracing for height fields july musg this available research report yaleu dcs from yale university also the siggraph fractal modeling computer graphics and imaging course notes and best all available the net nic funet pub sci papers musg weedeater math yale edu pub papers musg princeton edu pub graphics papers musg coral jcu edu graphics papers musg gondwana ecr pub papers musg and musg implementation this paper may found rayshade another paper exists david paglieroni sidney petersen parametric height field ray tracing proceedings graphics interface canadian information processing society toronto ontario may and still one more musgrave kolb and mace the synthesis and rendering eroded fractal terrains computer graphics vol siggraph procedings how find the area polygon the area triangle given notation area and the area planar polygon given area for area area area the area negative number the polygon triangle clockwise positive counterclockwise from ronald golman gem graphics gems see section above area planar polygons and volume polyhedra the area polygon not the plane given area polygon sigma where the unit vector normal the plane and polygonal vertex the represents the dot product operator and the represents the cross product operator sigma represents the summation operator represents the absolute value operator equal how join acm siggraph probably the easiest way join acm siggraph trot over your local technical library and find copy communications the acm somewhere within the first few pages will application blank fill out and mail acm membership for students costs voting associate membership yearly siggraph student membership costs additional for voting associate members also yearly get tog transactions graphics another for students and for voting associate members you just want join siggraph without joining acm cost you student discount there are surcharges for overseas airmailing publications acm member services may contacted via email acmhelp acmvm bitnet their phone number fax number snailmail address acm box church street station new york new york siggraph will held anaheim california the anaheim convention center just the street from disneyland august where can find mri and scan volume data volume data sets are available from the university north carolina omicron unc edu pub softlab chvrtd commerical use prohibited head data slice mri data set human head knee data slice mri data set human knee hipip data the result quantum mechanical calculation sod data one electron orbital hipip iron protein sod data electron density map the active site sod superoxide dismutase cadaver head data slice mri data set study cadaver head brain data slice mri data set head with skull partially removed reveal brain rna data electron density map for staphylococcus aureus ribonuclease specific references spatial data structures including quadtrees and octrees samet the design and analysis spatial data structures addison wesley reading isbn samet applications spatial data structures computer graphics image processing gis addison wesley reading isbn where can get program plot data data gnuplot command driven interactive data function plotting program runs just about any machine and very flexible terms supported output devices the official north american distribution site for the latest version dartmouth edu pub gnuplot more information available from the usenet newsgroup comp graphics gnuplot and its faq graphics gnuplot faq ace xmgr motif xvgr xview data function plotting tool for workstations terminals using available from ftp ccalmr ogi edu ccalmr pub acegr robotx robot general purpose plotting and data analysis program requires xview terminal workstation available from sunsite unc edu pub academic data analysis xgraph popular two dimensional plotting program that accepts data form similar the unix program graph and displays line graphs scatter plots bar charts display available from berkeley edu pub drawplot program for drawing plots windows sunview displays terminals available from xcf berkeley edu src local specific references pex and phigs pexlib programming manual tom gaskins pages reilly associates isbn pexlib reference manual edited steve talbott pages reilly associates isbn phigs programming manual tom gaskins pages reilly associates isbn softcover isbn casebound phigs reference manual edited linda kosko pages reilly associates isbn siggraph online bibliography project the acm siggraph online bibliography project database over unique computer graphics and computational geometry references bibtex format available the computer graphics community research and educational resource the database located siggraph org users may download the bibtex files via ftp and peruse them offline telnet siggraph org and log biblio and interactively search the database for entries interest keyword additions corrections suggestions may directed the admin bibadmin siggraph org john grieggs telos jet propulsion laboratory oak grove drive pasadena uucp cit vax elroy chas jpl devvax grieggs arpa jpl devvax grieggs cit vax arpa
comp.graphics	avi flc converter looking for small utility that will convert microsoft video avi file autodesk animator pro flc file since avis also contain sound would nice this utility also stored the sound track wav voc file currently accomplishing this saving the avi multiple dibs using video for windows then converting each dib gif then loading the gifs into animator for the sound load the original avi into wavedit and save seperate wav file this requires too many steps productive any help will greatly appreciated thanks don don campbell internet donc cognos com uucp cognos donc cognos inc mail box riverside drive ottawa ontario canada
comp.graphics	turning photographic images into thermal print and negatives not know hitting the right news groups not any help the right direction more than welcome need help finding company that will take photographic images scanned and modified adobe photoshop and turn them into thermal prints negatives looking for place close north carolina possible the images will created macintosh quadra running adobe photoshop and will then stored whatever format the vendor requires perhaps cartridges the images will black and white photographs scanned with dpi scanner then modified corrected adobe photoshop anyone could help even give phone numbers people who could would very grateful also anyone else doing what planning would happy hear from you with any advice you might provide the computer system you use and any peripherals software seemed the quadra would best bet modify photographic images planning buying quadra with megs ram meg hard drive dpi scanner sony monitor and meg cartridge drive and perhaps rom new computers and any advice would great david hawks seq uncwil edu hawks corning com
comp.graphics	need help find out the address several companies doing graphics lucas film pixar eye inc light magic thanks changyaw wangc indiana edu
comp.graphics	research positions graphics munich germany european computer research centre research positions graphics ecrc currently expanding its research staff three dimensional graphics are looking for highly qualified researchers with phd computer science and proven ability conduct highly innovative research preference will given candidates who have strong experience developing and implementing algorithms for three dimensional graphics visualization and user interaction presently have positions available for both experienced researchers and recent graduates candidates with especially strong backgrounds may considered for positions visiting scientists for student research positions the european computer industry research centre located munich germany with english the working language the centre funded consortium major computer companies with mission pursue research fundamental areas computer science active areas research include visualization and user interfaces distributed computing parallelism deductive systems and databases the center employs researchers different nationalities the small but rapidly growing graphics group currently investigating new methods for three dimensional human computer interaction and the integration computer vision and computer graphics technology the center has extensive computing facilities which includes sun workstations apple macintoshes well equipped graphics laboratory and network access super computer facilities ecrc offers competitive salaries and excellent benefits for immediate consideration send written application with curriculum vitae telephone number mail address and references douglas greer ecrc gmbh arabellastrasse munich germany
comp.graphics	wanted playmation info article apr osf org omar godzilla osf org mark marino writes folks does anyone have copy playmation they willing sell love try out but not for the retail playmation available direct from anjon associates for hard beat that price also you better off with newer version than older version that had bugs that have long since been clobbered thanks advance mark marino omar osf org uunet osf omar ken baer programmer animator hash enterprises usenet baer qiclab uucp applelink kenbaer office not hitchhiking anymore riding ren hoak
comp.graphics	bit graphics wonko the sane oehler yar wisc edu wrote was recently talking possible employer mine and made reference bit graphics computer image processing system seem remember being called image something akin that anyway claimed had bit color bit alpha channel that bits info what could that possibly for specifically the bit color that trillion colors many more than the human eye can resolve this anti aliasing thing this just some magic number make work better with certain processor pretty sure most industry strength image processing specific systems photo processing gear use much bits color info why why not oversampling never bad idea especially the hardware only task image manipulation and profressional photographers demand professional results also settle bet with roommate what are sgi flagship products know iris indigo and crimson but what are the other ones and which their top the line sadly have access none them just dec sigh strange question but anyway there the vgx line the newer indigo and the onyx systems are the new big boys the block you can get processor system with twice the graphics performance reality engine there more but don have handy periodic table sgi keith
comp.graphics	hallusion info sean murphy sean aries scs uiuc edu wrote has anyone seen hallusions you can buy poster them and looks like simple dot pattern when you first look but you focus behind you see picture looking for program that generates these pictures there company texas that makes them but doubt they giving the program away any help would appreciated there program included with the book virtual reality playhouse which will let you generate these pictures not very powerful program but does acceptable job for experimentation purposes davidr rincon ema rockwell com
comp.graphics	message for cgcad bart inescn cant get through the author rtrace his site inaccessible can upload the new version somewhere else please
comp.graphics	rfd for open telematic group for realtime multimedia online apps rfd request for discussion for the open telematic group otg have proposed the forming consortium task force for the promotion naplps jpeg fif openly discuss ways method procedures algorythms applications implementation extensions naplps jpeg standards these standards should facilitate the creation real time online applications that make use voice video telecommuting hires graphics conferencing distant learning online order entry fax addition these dicussion would assist all better understand how sgml cals oda mime oodbms jpeg mpeg fractals sql cdrom cdromxa kodak photocd tcl fast eia tia can best incorporated and implemented develop telematic multimedia applications want able support dos unix mac windows platforms our hope that individuals developers corporations universities labs would join supporting such endeavor this would not for profit group with bylaws and charter already many corporation have decided support otg open telematic group not delay joining you are developer rfd has been posted form usenet newsgroup and faq will soon compose start promulgating what known the subject you would like added the mailist send email mail the address below this group would publish electronic quarterly naplps jpeg newsletter well hardcopy version urge all who wants see cmcs hires based applications the naplps jpeg decide join and mutually benefit from this not for profit endeavor note telematic has been defined james martin the marriage voice video res graphics fax ivr music over telephone lines lan you would like get involve write img inter multimedia group internet epimntl world std com box pimentel gisatl fidonet org atlanta georgia cis fidonet bbs zyxel all that have responded are trying acknowledge soon possible have really been inundated with org corp edu willing get involve would nice upon responded you can state what capacity you are willing get involve edimg willard atl pimentel gatech vdbsan willard edimg emory uumind willard edimg willard house bbs atlanta
comp.graphics	inv normal array does anyone truely understand the invalid normal array error gives you while rendering seems present itself while rendering complicated images have circumvented this problem rendering the command line however would nice render inside the editor this memory problem craig
comp.graphics	format gif files could anyone tell the format gif files would like know how could determine the size the picture also are gif files compressed format how many bits store pixel color information this probally simple question but couldn find the faq email responses would perferred david lau davidla ecs comm mot com
comp.graphics	bit graphics good reason which why many companies use for bits pixel you can use double buffering for animating scenes you have bit planes you write the one the background and then flip the entire screen updates the second image plane the screen updates one refresh and you don see different objects appearing the order that they drawn the cad macdraw effect now your ready update the image that used the foreground steve thssstb iitmax iit edu iris iit edu about the product line who can even keep track nowadays every seems their ads press releases claim redefine computing etc etc know with each new product progress and competition are great but who wants invest system that obsolete the time reaches your desk
comp.graphics	why does illustrator autotrace poorly article vmcbrt diablo uucp diablo uucp cboesel charles boesel writes been trying figure out way get adobe illustrator auto trace exactly what see screen but misses the edges templates many pixels more resulting images that are useless need exact tracing not approximate tried adjusting the freehand tolerances well autotrace tolerances but doesn help any suggestions buy adobe streamline problem solved college men get smashed and break something college women get smashed and get broken robin wilson president ryan malayter chico state university stanford hall notre dame dept physics comp sci malayter edu
comp.graphics	oak vga driver available via ftp user bbs accidentally deleted his vga driver for his oak card and has backup was wondering someone knew ftp site and path please where such thing might obtained thanks there religion when man has good curry call the lizard den bbs yoda usenet nethack xix amiga tim clinkenpeel aberrant analytical skeptical agnostic idealist exclusively represent myself
comp.graphics	fast polygon routine needed article rguqoinnrc edna swin edu alan saturn swin alan christiansen writes believe that the algorithms you can get that will only draw convex polygons can much more efficient than those that can draw concave self intersecting polygons this efficiency can largely attributed the fact that simple convex polygons only have left and right edge each scan line complex figure type polygons can bit trickier true the convex algorithm faster than general concave multi outline algorithm but not tremendously faster spent awhile implementing and optimizing both flavors and the convex turned out about faster this all risc the compiler got the inner loop shooting the span fast possible far could tell for any sort game the database render known ahead time and can made all convex definitely the way sorry but code cannot made public domain jesse jesse lackey eye inc ithaca jesse eye com
comp.graphics	fast polygon routines needed looking for some fast polygon routines shaded texture mapped asm compile with masm turbo pascal compile with has able run but does not have look super fast but must look good anyone has any such code could you please mail tell where can got thanks advance daniel godden genius only one step away university western sydney nepean from insanity aarnet internet dgodden nepean usw edu but already there
comp.graphics	virtual reality for the cheap ridout bink plk mil brian ridout writes article apr mfltd sts mfltd steve sherwood writes has anyone got multiverse work have built svr mips svr and sun sparcstation there seems many bugs the dogfight and dactyl simply nothing after fixing bug where variable defined twice two different modules one needed setting static else the client core dumped steve extn sts mfltd uunet mfocus sts tried compiling several sparcstations with gcc after fixing few bugs missing constant definitions plus couple other things got compile link but after starting client server just get black window sometimes the client core dumps sometimes the server sometimes get broken pipe sometimes just sits there doing nothing although occassionally get the cursor become cross hair dog fight but that sent word the author plus what did fix last week but reply yet peter campbell campbell trl
comp.graphics	graph traversal algorithms everyone currently planning write program that traverses the image handwritten characters ascii format and produces circle and line representation handwritten characters did anybody out there has any experiences this problem you have would you post mail please kevin does anyone has program that traverse the digital image and produces circle and line kevin shin kshin bcstec boeing com
comp.graphics	newsgroup split article mach wlu mart mach wlu phil martin writes chris herringshaw tdawson engin umich edu wrote concerning the proposed newsgroup split personally not favor doing this learn awful lot about all aspects graphics reading this group from code hardware algorithms just think making different groups out this wate and will only result few posts week per group kind like the convenience having one big forum for discussing all aspects graphics anyone else feel this way just curious yes also like knowing where ask question without getting hell for putting the wrong newsgroup also against splitting the group the traffic will decrease any given subject but the required net bandwidth will increase because multiply cross postings just went through this with another group continuously read now almost the point where longer worth reading strongly suggest not doing this dave rogers
comp.graphics	wanted grayscale dithering routine have some color gifs which would like archive much smaller size using grayscale palette shades the quantization grays introduces some ugly bands the pictures which can nicely eliminated dithering now have used process the images but now would like automate the procedure the problem that can think convert images automatically and the obvious alternative pnmplus ppmquant and pnmdither don even get close quality pnmdither apparently dithers rgb even though the images are grayscale the dithering routine seems use the natural image colors for the dither this any similar routine available the public domain where niclas mattsson exjob math chalmers
comp.graphics	vrrend where kept told that vrrend available the internet wanted know where thanks advance raoul daruwala nyu edu
comp.graphics	rumours about article apr mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes wow very interested get hands one these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which supposedly the next the lineup the made someone other than motorola signetics perhaps and was memory serves correctly compatible single chip micro type chip built extra toys like serial ports ram interfaces etc laugh all you want but there such critter gord wait smos systems vancouver design centre uunet jericho gord gord jericho uunet net even some days
comp.graphics	mgr naplps gui bbs frontends all looking into methods can use turn linux based bbs into full color graphical bbs that supports mac linux and amiga callers originally was inspired the naplps graphics standard summary which hit this group about weeks ago posted that document forgot part etc but was more than summary was complete technical description the protocol can ftped from simtel from wuarchive wustl edu mirrors msdos naplps following software availability naplps supporting software find that most terminal programs are commercial the only resonable shareware one being which runs soley msdos machines leaving mac and amiga users buy full commercial software they want try out the bbs know wouldn next most interesting possibility port mgr mac amiga why not write naplps decoder for your choice platform and release the code the net then other willing souls can help port other platforms naplps was designed for this type online interactive graphics much the same but while intended for high bandwidth network connections naplps was optimized for low bandwidth modem connections there color version mgr for linux does anyone have any other suggestions for linux based gui bbs sure you will receive other suggestions but look this way you wanted provide full network connection linux over modem would you use slip ppp would you invent some new way most people would say that slip ppp exist and are reasonably well designed protocols lets just implement them see the same way with naplps existing well thought out extensible protocol for online graphics why not implement you need any advice implementation just mail currently getting beta version coreldraw naplps converter working well enough release may you someone else does not get going freely available naplps decoder then intend after get conversion program out beta and get couple other things done michael dillon internet mpdillon halcyon halcyon com powerhouse fidonet armstrong voice canada bbs
comp.graphics	patches for sungks due number bugs gks under sunos installed patches and patch appears work fine and has fixed number problems patch however which required fix number other annoying bugs breaks with our applications there more recent revision patch any other ideas scott sloan email cesws newcastle edu university newcastle fax nsw australia
comp.graphics	psygnosis titles was rumours about mark samson samson prlhp prl philips wrote speaking psygnosis they have licensed games philips interative media international for and for the commodore cdtv regards email mattias matt dah dsv love
comp.graphics	front end for povray day all does anyone know anything about front end for povray version mean are there things like user friendly modeller for povray any modellers which will let design scene and produce file which povray can then read cheers tomek tomek tpiatek comp vuw new zealand tomek tpiatek comp vuw new zealand
comp.graphics	vatican library the vatican library recently made tour the can anyone help finding ftp site where this collection available thanx advance watson
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance wed apr gmt psh brunel peter hauke said peter joachim lous joachim kih wrote peter does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from peter yep here theory that once heard bandied around rather than thinking peter the number think the sound for tea two sort anagram tea for two peter two for tea for tea two other suggestion there tea above just and for two many things are possible think binary wonder there was eve for adam peter malek malek cooperate what agree and forgive each other for that which disagree hassan banna
comp.graphics	raytracing colours have question about recursive backward raytracing when incident ray strikes object point first the normal calculated light rays are calculated where the number light sources these being the light rays that not intersect with anything the reflected ray and the transmitted ray calculated from the formulae calling the routine recursively and will return the colours along the rays and rcol and tcol each object has its own colour ocol and each light source has licol the question how you combine rcol tcol ocol and all the licol get the correct resulting colour return along the ray all colours are defined strucures records having components between and anyone has done this before could you give few hints adrian secchia asecchia uct
comp.graphics	bit graphics apollo now have graphics board that does bit graphics when heard that jumped the answer isn that can trillion trillion trillion colors actually does planes bits planes bits etc for very fast graphics douginoz
comp.graphics	lasergraphics language have old montage film recorder when connected with its processor card can directly take hpgl targa and lasergraphics language files bit targa quite for raster images but conversion from whatever one happens have can quite slow this lasergraphics language seems got the source file for one test image vector based language that can handle one million colors does some polygons too and perhaps something else the question where can find some information about this language ftp site book company address would nice have windows driver for but not that optimistic thanks advance for any help jussi jussi laaksonen computing centre akademi university finland
comp.graphics	matrox windows driver need windows driver for the matrox svga card the moment windows runs only the mode you have driver for this card please send with the oemsetup inf bockamp informatik muenchen thanks florian bockamp bockamp informatik muenchen ooo ooo not bug undocumented feature
comp.graphics	help needed hidden line removal article raynor beech scarolina edu raynor scarolina edu harold brian raynor writes looking for some information hidden line removal using roberts algorithm something with code pseudo code would especially helpful required this for class due monday have very little time implement these changes very fast paced class the notes given class leave lot desired would vastly appreciate any help actually any algorithm would nice roberts the main problem two objects intersecting and dimensions need know which lines clip off that one object will appear front another you can give ftp address and filename even the name good book really appreciate day brian blunt about this the only reasonable explanation roberts algorithm procedural elements for computer graphics rogers mcgraw hill book the library and look this there also somewhat muddled explanation the first edition newman and sproull the algorithm described pecg runs near linear time luck dave rogers
comp.graphics	wanted how screen dump vga screen how can one dump the printer the content vga screen were text screen can execute shift printscr but with graphics have pixed pixel print would greatly appreciated someone can supply source code for this alternately are there commercial shareware programs that are available this must able shell out program execute this print screen therefore would prefferable have source code thank you advance rickey tom internet style aruba rickt psi com programmer analyst project uucp uunet uupsi aruba rickt
comp.graphics	coreldraw bitmap scodal article rsiinnld zephyr grace cri srlnjal grace cri writes does anyone know software that will allow you convert coreldraw cdr files containing bitmaps scodal this the only format our bureau filmrecorder recognises corel draw will version onwards you have version perhaps upgrade order another alternative would use different bureau that can take postscript chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester internet lilley mcc voice fax janet lilley mcc
comp.graphics	needed plotting package that does qgf alta com chris zeus alta com chris murphy writes article full apr dolphin pts mot com full pts mot com glen fullmer writes looking for graphics cad whatever package unix box that will take file with records like see roger grywalski response help network visualization comp graphics visualization could someone please post roger grywalski response point where could find thanks lot raj chaudhury dept physics raj phys ksu edu kansas state university manhattan raj chaudhury dept physics raj phys ksu edu kansas state university manhattan
comp.graphics	classes for graphics planning writing several classes build raytracing radiosity library top and wondering anythink like this freely available the net before what need classes like rays vectors colors shaders surfaces media primitives worlds containing primitives and views images please post mail torgeir veimo studying the university bergen gona wave freak flag high jimi hendrix and would okay any other day the police
comp.graphics	problems article cba tut lehtori tut kouhia juhana writes recent discussion about problems were held some newsgroup here some text users might find interesting have also minor ideas for bit mail for them deleted for space basically complaints that bit program and that making several modifications the rgb sliders slow because screen updates reverse order try clicking the auto apply box switch off then make your mods then click apply there problem stated has already been solved you look carefully yes bit program this not bug you can edit individual pallette entries global colour changes crop scale etc clearly the program must save out the altered image else all your work would thrown away yes saves out bit images course can import bit images and quantises them down bits this handy facility not bug how would you suggest doing colour editing bit file how would you group related colours edit them together only global changes could done unless the software were very different and much more complicated you want colour editing bit image you need much more powerfull software which readily available commercially and lastly jpeg compression algorithm can applied any image arbitrary bit depth again this not bug way saving disk space later chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester internet lilley mcc voice fax janet lilley mcc
comp.graphics	vatican library reposted request these images are great but they are also large pixels typical size warned regards tom lane from rsquires cyclops eece unm edu roger squires newsgroups comp archives subject rec arts books vatican library exhibit library congress online date feb gmt original newsgroups rec arts books original date feb gmt archive name auto rec arts books vatican library exhibit library congress online this from another newsgroup looks quite interesting rms announcing new online exhibit from the library congress rome reborn the vatican library renaissance culture exhibit the library congress washington available anonymous ftp from seq loc gov pub vatican exhibit rome reborn the vatican library and renaissance culture presents some the vatican library most precious manuscripts books and maps many which played key role the humanist recovery the classical heritage greece and rome the exhibition presents the untold story the vatican library the intellectual driving force behind the emergence rome political and scholarly superpower during the renaissance the exhibit will display the jefferson building the library congress from january through april the online exhibit will available anonymous ftp indefinitely the exhibit divided into nine sections the vatican library archaeology humanism mathematics music medicine biology nature described wider world how the orient came rome and wider world how rome went china each section consists its own sub directory within the exhibit directory and contains the exhibit text for that section and separate jpeg image files for each object this online exhibit includes not only objects from the library congress exhibit but also the alternate objects brought from rome used there were problem with one the primary objects and items omitted later the planning process this exhibit will interest medieval and renaissance scholars particular but also art historians historians science medicine early music scholars students the humanist movement students printing and the printed word theologians scholars both far and near eastern studies and librarians and information professionals please get the readme file for details what files this exhibit contains you have questions about how use ftp speak your local computer support person you have questions comments about the content the exhibit please write vatican kell loc gov while you have any questions comments the system please contact ellis ellis special projects office library congress washington internet kell seq loc gov
comp.graphics	coreldraw bitmap scodal article gmginn zephyr grace cri srlnjal grace cri writes yes aware coreldraw exports scodal version did quite well apart from few hassles with radial fills version revb better but you try export scodal with bitmap image included the drawing will say something like cannot export scodal with bitmap least does version then sorry for misunderstanding anyone out there knows way around this all ears temporal images make product called filmpak which converts autocad plots scodal postscript scodal and now gif scodal but costs and was just wondering there was anything out there that just did the bitmap scodal part tad cheaper maybee you should persuade your burea that for only they can become much more competitive taking input from autocad postscript andgif well scodl seriously this sounds like something the bureau should have find another bureau you should not the one buting this software chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester internet lilley mcc voice fax janet lilley mcc
comp.graphics	adobe photo shop type software for unix motif platforms article world std com wdm world std com wayne michael writes have been searching for quality image enhancement and manipulation package for unix motif platforms that comparable adobe photo shop for the mac corel draw will able this will include the photopaint stuff that the version got with version don hold your breath though chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester internet lilley mcc voice fax janet lilley mcc
comp.graphics	bit graphics article apr wisc edu oehler yar wisc edu wonko the sane writes was recently talking possible employer mine and made reference bit graphics computer image processing system seem remember being called image something akin that anyway claimed had bit color bit alpha channel that bits info what could that possibly for specifically the bit color that trillion colors many more than the human eye can resolve this anti aliasing thing this just some magic number make work better with certain processor well bit colour could for improved resolution but bits per channel seems like bit excessive have seen paper that quoted bits per channel bits for computational precision more than that would seem wasted perhaps the frame buffer uses another colourspace which needs more bits represent the full range rgb cube compact encoding most likely however that there are two separate bit bits per component frame buffers this set called double buffering allows complex picture built one buffer while the other buffer containing the previous frame displayed this makes for smoother animation sadly have access none them just dec sigh well hey you want brag about numbers the range can take pxg turbo card with bits per pixel full double buffering two bit buffers bit buffer and extra bit buffer for off screen image storage mind you the card costs more than your workstation chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester internet lilley mcc voice fax janet lilley mcc
comp.graphics	turning photographic images into thermal print and negatives also anyone else doing what planning would happy hear from you with any advice you might provide the computer system you use and any peripherals software seemed the quadra would best bet modify photographic images planning buying quadra with megs ram meg hard drive dpi scanner sony monitor and meg cartridge drive and perhaps rom new computers and any advice would great well have lots experience with scanning images and altering them for changing them back into negatives that really possible scanning and altering big deal don know what types features you have your version photoshop but the one use which incidentally quadra has gallery effects and all types other neato stuff just wondering why you would want put your images back into negatives because once you print the image out that your print you know what exactly your aim all this like are you doing this just for fun for business gain more computer knowledge for project you working otherwise guess don know helping not posting info scanning and stuff cool seeya jennifer urso the bitter woman utter blahness but cheerful undertones
comp.graphics	help need bits viewer article seti inria deniaud cartoon inria gilles deniaud writes looking for program which able display bits images are using sun sparc equipped with parallax graphics board running utah raster toolkit using getx convert your sun raster files presumably ppm with the pbm toolkit then convert ppm utah rle format with ppmtorle which provided the toolkit seem remember that xloadimage can bit servers too possibly xwud the window dump program can display bit images certainly xwd can grab them chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester internet lilley mcc voice fax janet lilley mcc
comp.graphics	povray tga rle hello have some problem converting tga file generated povray rle file when convert not get any warning message but use xloadimage getx something wrong error messages are targatorle rle data tga xloadimage rle rle bit rle image with map will dither bits with gamma dithering image done building ximage done xloadimage error badvalue integer parameter out range for operation xloadimage error badwindow invalid window parameter know that need install ppmtorle and tgatoppm but not spend time install them even not want generate rgb from povray and then convert them rle possible rgb rle works but will mess directory with many files and needs more steps finally convert rle file say cat rawtorle rleflip does any body out there have same experience problems thanks advance park
comp.graphics	wanted playmation info article apr qiclab scn rain com baer qiclab scn rain com ken baer writes article apr osf org omar godzilla osf org mark marino writes folks does anyone have copy playmation they willing sell love try out but not for the retail playmation available direct from anjon associates for oops forgot the phone number ken baer programmer animator hash enterprises usenet baer qiclab uucp applelink kenbaer office not hitchhiking anymore riding ren hoak
comp.graphics	please help point concave polyhedra dear netters looking for source code test point lies within concave polyhadra have read few articles about this and know that two solutions exist parity counting and angle sumation both ideas are pretty simple but coding not wonder there exists public domain source code for this another rough solition don care special cases ray casting which reported more less independent number faces consisting the polyhedra special space indexing used tamminen ray casting and block model conversion using spatial index computer aided designs but the prerequirement that all the facets polyhedra have their normal pointing outside polyhedra how this could done practice have set trangles consisting the polyhedra how could ensure their normals pointing outside the polyhedra the paper mentioned above assumed this already the case have also read some standard computer graphics textbook about hidden line removal says make the rule that the normal facet pointing toward viewer standing far away from the polyhedra again how make sure any pointers are welcome yaohong jiang queen university kingston ont jiangy qucdn queensu
comp.graphics	triangulized data wanted with texture mapped need triangulized data some nice looking model with some texture mapping would better the parametric values each vertex for the surface before triangulized are avaliable along with the euclidean points that could use them for texture mapping thanks kwansik
comp.graphics	where faq where can find thanks kwansik
comp.graphics	what the difference between raytracing and rendering hello raytraced and rendered and the only difference found that raytracing takes hell lot longer missing something later
comp.graphics	tiff complexity anyone who thinks that tiff too complex hasn dealt with cgm asn cda dca sgml any one number other very successful file format people seem perfectly capable dealing with these others dealing with the format tiff frankly less difficult than dealing with the dct lzw and fax encoding the image data the majority the libraries which deal with tiff are dedicated these other issues rather than with simply decoding the tags and parameters perhaps people are overwhelmed comparison with some rather simpleminded formats such gif pcx and bmp but suggest that tiff complex doomed failure ludicrous that doesn mean that gif isn fine but don even thing about using many instances gif very nice for use low end photos applications and for screen grabs and such but would never for high volume high resolution systems fax nice but doesn color and gif doesn all that well jpeg nice for high resolution color but slow for low end the advantage tiff brings the table its ability handle all these situations and then some naturally more complex but rather propose tiff imaging solutions over imaging systems based having deal with file formats anyday you may find that tiff too complicated for your personal tastes but please don wrail against complexity the complexity contains required provide the functionality does and doesn come close the complexity found most commercially viable file formats philosophical arguments against complexity let all program scheme and forth and imaging with run length encoding
comp.graphics	dxf pcx gif tif tga does anyone know program for the that will take autocad dxf format files and convert them raster format like pcx gif etc thanks advance murashie mail beckman instruments inc phone diagnostic system group fax kraemer blvd internet murashiea mail beckman com brea
comp.graphics	donwloaded bin file from unix machine now what just donwloaded bin file from unix machine which supposed converted mac format does anyone know what need this file get into any dos mac unix readable format someone mentioned fetch the unix machine this correct could someone explain the bin format little thanks elizabeth elizabeth strickler matess gsusgi gsu edu
comp.graphics	help studio ipas can anyone please give some ftp sites get ipas processes for studio thanks warren
comp.graphics	computer graphics studies the technion technion israel institute technology department computer science graduate studies computer graphics applications are invited for graduate students wishing specialize computer graphics and related fields active research being conducted the fields image rendering geometric modelling and computer animation state the art graphics workstations sun silicon graphics and video equipment are available the technion offers full scholarship support tuition and assistantships for suitable candidates for more information contact craig gotsman computer science deptartment technion israel institute technology haifa israel gotsman technion
comp.graphics	dwg gcd formats reference needed can some kind soul point references for the above formats thanks earl
comp.graphics	any autodesk concepts users out there you are user autodesk concepts and are willing answer small number short questions then please send email earl boebert sctc com
comp.graphics	raytracing colours asecchia uct adrian secchia writes when incident ray strikes object point the reflected ray and the transmitted ray calculated from the formulae calling the routine recursively and will return the colours along the rays and rcol and tcol each object has its own colour ocol and each light source has licol the question how you combine rcol tcol ocol and all the licol get the correct resulting colour return along the ray first all this not snide response you confused about this issue you will stumble over lot other things well suggest that the weakness your reference material get introduction ray tracing andrew glassner for very good coverage the raytracing algorithm you could also refer the edition foley van dam the question the simple answer that you just keep adding all the contributions and then clamping the maximum intensity for example your intensity values range from then keep adding and clamp the resultant values you might have clamp the lower bound you have dark bulbs but that another issue you get some illumination equation like this lambient ldiffuse light lreflected ltransparent the contribution due reflection just summed with the light intensity the light due transparency now slightly less hand waving illumination equation this kala kdld light krlr ktlt that each component the illumination equation governed the material constants and the maximum you can get from transparency for given object for example might for purple colored glass object hopefully this answers your question forward illumination equation sermon you also steve hollasch kubota pacific computer inc hollasch kpc com santa clara california
comp.graphics	what the difference between raytracing and rendering zlg uxa cso uiuc edu zhenhai writes hello raytraced and rendered and the only difference found that raytracing takes hell lot longer missing something yes there are many methods rendering raytracing one them you didn say what you mean rendering won guess methods rendering include pencil and graph paper doing the math hand wireframe rendering the projection hidden line rendering scanline rendering using painter algorithm bsp trees buffer other raytracing radiosity holographic projection film combination any the above steve hollasch kubota pacific computer inc hollasch kpc com santa clara california
comp.graphics	dna helix looking for tiff eps dna helix mail any auggestions please
comp.graphics	donwloaded bin file from unix machine now what article matess gsusgi gsu edu matess gsusgi gsu edu eliza strickler writes just donwloaded bin file from unix machine which supposed converted mac format does anyone know what need this file get into any dos mac unix readable format someone mentioned fetch the unix machine this correct could someone explain the bin format little this almost certainly macbinary file which encoded version mac file the resource fork and data fork get preserved you need program that converts this regular file this macbinary file you may have downloaded text mode and probably corrupt you did you using ftp transfer any point make sure you type binary first you can open the file with text editor and find this file must converted with bin the top binhex file and can decoded with binhex among other programs niko schuessler project vincent systems manager email niko iastate edu iowa state university computation center voice ames snail durham
comp.graphics	rfd comp multimedia open telematic rfd request for discussion for the open telematic group otg have proposed the forming consortium task force for the promotion naplps jpeg fif openly discuss ways method procedures algorythms applications implementation extensions naplps jpeg standards these standards should facilitate the creation real time online applications that make use voice video telecommuting hires graphics conferencing distant learning online order entry fax addition these dicussion would assist all better understand how sgml cals oda mime oodbms jpeg mpeg fractals sql cdrom cdromxa kodak photocd tcl fast and eia tia can best incorporated and implemented develop telematic multimedia applications want able support dos unix mac windows platforms our hope that individuals developers corporations universities labs would join supporting such endeavor this would not for profit group with bylaws and charter already many corporations have decided support otg open telematic group not delay joining you are developer rfd has been posted form usenet newsgroup and faq will soon composed start promulgating what known the subject you would like added the maillist send email mail the address below this group would publish electronic quarterly naplps jpeg newsletter well hardcopy version urge all who wants see cmcs hires based applications the naplps jpeg decide join and mutually benefit from this not for profit endeavor note telematic has been defined james martin the marriage voice video res graphics fax ivr music over telephone lines lan you would like get involve write img inter multimedia group internet epimntl world std com box pimentel gisatl fidonet org atlanta georgia cis fidonet bbs zyxel edimg willard atl pimentel gatech vdbsan willard edimg emory uumind willard edimg willard house bbs atlanta
comp.graphics	wanted bit viewer hello thanks the people who helped with the problem displaying bit images all the viewers like xli xloadimage and display are converting the bit images bit before display them the screen what really want viewer with make use the bit frame screen buffer our case the parallax one thanks advance gilles are using sun sparc running
comp.graphics	scientific visualization chemical systems molecules has evolved from esoteric academic subject into international industry computer graphics has played decisive role this transformation allowing chemists build visualize and interact with complex geometrical objects while computer scientists are conversant the language their own discipline they are often unfamiliar with the terminology simulation techniques and practical needs research chemists similarly chemists are often unfamiliar with the latest paradigms and technological advances graphical computing this interdisciplinary course intended bridge the gap between computer science and chemistry and equip chemistry researchers who wish more than just casual users prepackaged graphics software although this not intended course computational chemistry drug design data sets from chemical research problems will used lab and students will encouraged bring data sets their own lab exercises and projects will carried out using data flow programming ibm visualization data explorer software and students will have access cornell theory center computing resources including video recording equipment audience researchers and students the chemical and biological sciences interested integrating state the art computer graphics into their research computer scientists wishing gain familiarity with major application scientific visualization the class size will limited participants first come first served basis level graduate advanced undergraduate credits may taken without credit workshop calculus linear algebra and introductory chemistry required familiarity with unix windows and useful but not required date june credits june credits time mon fri and cost credit credits format the course will held the theory center training facility where computer workstations will available daily lectures will interspersed with laboratory exercises and ample time will provided for project enablement and familiarization with the new computing environment students enrolled for one credit will graded the basis their laboratory exercises and short final project those enrolled for second credit will receive more advanced lectures given more time for project development and meet daily share experience and discuss problems encountered content may vary elements computer graphics polygonal rendering lighting models ray tracing volumetric rendering stereo graphics animation introduction data flow programming interactivity representing the atom size time and energy scales basic classical and quantum mechanics important categories molecules small molecules biopolymers surfaces and catalysts miscellaneous current applications data formats and conversions advanced molecular graphics techniques types simulation and experiment electronic structure molecular dynamics mechanics electrostatics ray crystallography nmr quantum dynamics and spectroscopy instructors the course will taught two instructors topics related computer graphics will handled bruce land project leader visualization cornell national supercomputing facility chemistry specific aspects the course will handled richard gillilan visualization specialist and research scientist cornell national supercomputing facility register mail completed form cornell university school continuing education and summer sessions day hall ithaca questions richard gillilan richard cornell edu important acceptance will first come first served and based target class size full credit and single non credit participants deadline may application form scientific visualization chemical systems chemistry computer science social security number available cornell number available name last first middle suffix etc address home address where grades will mailed local phone home phone academic discipline course number check one chemistry computer science credits status undergraduate student smart node consultant graduate student smart node advisor post doctoral faculty other explain corporate commercial research staff other explain name firm indicate which the following best describes you optional african american alaskan native asian american caucasian hispanic american native american list special needs mobility impaired accommodations blocks rooms are available the sheraton reservations must made later than may sure tell them you are here for the cornell theory center visualization workshop sheraton inn one sheraton drive ithaca fax rates starting other local motels make your reservation early our workshop coincides with other cornell events econo lodge cayuga mall triphammer ithaca fax rates from ask for the cornell rate dorm rooms have also been reserved participants both credit and non credit participants who are interested dorm rooms should call below for registration information jeanne miller donna smith email jeanne cornell edu donna cornell edu
comp.graphics	analysis text readins utils ocr wanted ibm from tolsty thu apr newsserv newcom kiae newsgroups comp periphs comp graphics digest comp graphics comp binaries ibm wanted alt graphics pixutils bit listserv omrscan message kaj nzfm nsk uucp free msk organization nsk ran from andrey shorin tolsty nsk uucp free msk date thu apr subject analysis text reading utils needed ibm distribution msk does anybody know any reliable utils read english texts with scanner want some analysis quality recognition because want read texts which get fax you know quality faxes rather bad the scanner have and dpi but there exist any good software that needs other specifications that will please send messages mail conference server summarize them and consider your recomendations thank you andrey shorin scientific council complex problem cybernetics russian academy sciences mail tolsty nsk uucp free msk tel fax
comp.graphics	cross sobel roberts filters saw imaging program some time ago amiga that had cross sobel and roberts filters for edge detection can anybody direct these algorithms paul denize paul denize internet pdenize waikato department computer science university waikato phone hamilton ext new zealand fax
comp.graphics	apr computer graphics resource listing weekly part archive name graphics resources list part last modified computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part last change april many faqs including this listing are available the archive site pit manager mit edu alias rtfm mit edu the directory pub usenet news answers the name under which faq archived appears the archive name line the top the article this faq archived graphics resources list part there mail server that machine you send mail message mail server pit manager mit edu containing the keyword help without quotes the message body you can see many other places for this listing see the item places find the resource listing for more information items changed arranged the subjects order fir better the article limit plan changing headers soon careful only the resource listing keys are sure remain the subject line computer graphics ftp site list eric haines mail servers and graphics oriented bbses plotting packages thinking making this post weekly what you think lines which got changed have the character front them added lines are prepended with removed lines are just removed use diff locate these changes this text copyright nikolaos fotis you can copy freely this file provided you keep this copyright notice intact compiled nikolaos nick fotis mail nfotis theseas ntua please contact for updates corrections etc disclaimer not guarantee the accuracy this document use your own risk this mainly guide for computer graphics software would suggest reading the comp graphics faq for image analysis stuff entitled date comp graphics frequently asked questions faq john grieggs grieggs jpl devvax jpl nasa gov the poster the official comp graphics faq have included comments within braces and nikolaos fotis contents the resource listing part places find the resource listing archie notes computer graphics ftp site list eric haines mail servers and graphics oriented bbses ray tracing graphics related mailing lists graphics editors public domain free and shareware systems commercial systems scene description languages solids description formats part plotting packages image analysis software image processing and display part scene generators geographical data maps data files scanners digitized data background imagery textures datafiles introduction rendering algorithms ray tracing buffer depth buffer others where can find the geometric data for the teapot space shuttle image annotation software scientific visualization stuff molecular visualization stuff gis geographical information systems software future additions please send updates info places find the resource listing this file crossposted comp graphics comp answers and news answers you can locate comp graphics you advised search comp answers news answers the latter groups usually are archived your site contact your sysadmin for more info these articles are posted comp graphics times month and are kept many places see below many faqs including this one are available the archive site pit manager mit edu alias rtfm mit edu the directory pub usenet news answers the name under which faq archived appears the archive name line the top the article this faq archived graphics resources list part there mail server that machine you send mail message mail server pit manager mit edu containing help the subject field the inria graphlib mail server mirrors this posting see under the subject mail servers the resource listing accesible through wais the machine enuxva eas asu edu port under the name graphics resources list got digest type line before every numbered item for purposes indexing another place that monitors the listing the maasinfo files for more info contact robert maas rem btr com yet another place search for faqs general the switch swiss academic and research network system switzerland interactive telnet nic switch login info move the info service usenet periodic postings directory search the index file typing and the word look for you may then just read the faq the faqs directory decide fetch one the following methods ftp login nic switch user anonymous and enter your internet style address after being prompted for password info service usenet periodic postings mail send mail rfc archive server nic switch archive server nic switch prmd switch admd arcom enter help the bodypart receive instructions information required the subject header line archie the archie service system locate ftp places for requested files appreciated that you will use archie before asking help the newsgroups archie servers archie aussie archie funet finland eur archie darmstadt ger huji israel archie kuis kyoto japan archie sogang korea archie ncu edu telnet twn archie doc ireland archie sura net usa archie unl edu password archie usa archie ans net usa archie rutgers edu usa archie new zealand connect archie server with telnet and type archie username get help type help you can get xarchie archie which are clients that call archie without the burden telnet session xarchie the contrib tape and archie comp sources misc vol get information how use archie via mail send mail with subject help archie account any above sites note janet pss users the united kingdom archie site accessible the janet host doc connect and specify archie the host name and archie the username notes excerpted from the faq article please not post mail messages saying can ftp could someone mail this there are number automated mail servers that will send you things like this response message there are number sites that archive the usenet sources newsgroups and make them available via email query system you send message automated server saying something like send comp sources unix fbm and few hours days later you get the file the mail computer graphics ftp site list eric haines computer graphics related ftp sites and maintainers compiled eric haines erich eye com and nick fotis nfotis theseas ntua ray tracers rayshade great ray tracer for workstations also for mac amiga pov son and successor dkb trace written compuservers for more questions call drew wells compuserve com dave buck david buck carleton art ray tracer with good range surface types part vort package dkbtrace another good ray tracer from all reports pcs mac amiga unix vms last two with previewer etc rtrace portugese ray tracer does bicubic patches csg text etc etc dos version for use with djgpp dos extender exists also mac port vivid shareware raytracer for pcs binary only author stephen coy coy ssc vax boeing com the source version available registered users direct from the author ray steve hollasch dimensional ray tracer renders hyperspheres hypertetrahedra hyperplanes and hyperparallelepipeds there separate real time wireframe viewer written called wire mtv qrt dbw yet more ray tracers some with interesting features distributed parallel raytracers xdart distributed ray tracer that runs under there are server binaries which work only decstations sparcs snakes series and next the clients are distributed binaries and source inetray network version rayshade needs sun rpc newer contact andreas thurnherr ant ips ethz prt pray parallel ray tracers volume renderers vrend cornell volume renderer from kartch devine caffey warren fortran radiosity and diffuse lighting renderers radiance ray tracer radiosity effects greg ward excellent shading models and physically based lighting simulation unix based though has been ported the amiga and the india indian radiosity package based radiance sgi rad interactive radiosity package that runs sgi machines with spaceball includes house database author guy moreillon moreillo ligsg epfl rad simple public domain radiosity package the solution can run stand alone any unix box but the walk through requires sgi author bernard kwok kwok yorku renderers which are not raytracers and graphics libraries sipp scan line buffer and phong shading renderer now uses the shadow buffer algorithm tcl sipp tcl command interface the sipp rendering program tcl sipp set tcl commands used programmed sipp without having write and compile code commands are used specify surfaces objects scenes and rendering options renders either ppm format utah raster toolkit rle format the photo widget the based applications vogle graphics learning environment device portable vogl sgi like library based vogle rend fast polygon renderer for intel and version not photorealistic but rather real time renderer xsharp dobb journal renderer source code with budget texture mapping modellers wireframe viewers vision mac modeler can output radiance rayshade files irit csg solid modeler with support for freeform surfaces wireframe viewer for wireframe graphics toolkit with source objects other stuff look major archives like wuarchive one such file dkit zip shareware front end modeler for povray still beta test french docs for now price for registering french francs save disabled some extra utilities dxf files for the registered version geometric viewers salem based package from dobkin for exploring mathematical structures geomview based package for looking and interactively manipulating objects from geometry center minnesota xyz geobench experimental geometry zurich workbench for geometric computation for macintosh computers wire wireframe previewer for steve hollasch ray see above data formats and data sets for ray tracing spd set procedural databases for testing ray tracers nff simplistic file format used spd off another file format lispy file format tddd imagine modeler format has converters for rayshade nff off etc also includes nice postscript object displayer some great models ttdddlib converts from tddd ttddd off nff rayshade imagine and vort objects also outputs framemaker mif files and isometric views postscript registered users get tex font converter and superquadric surfaces generator glenn lewis glewis pcocd intel com note ttdddlib also known dlib chvrtd chapel hill volume rendering test datasets includes volume sets for two heads brain knee electron density maps for rna and others written material rendering news collections articles ray tracing bib references articles ray tracing refer format rad bib references articles radiosity global illumination speer bib rick speer cross referenced bib postscript abstracts collection tom wilson abstracts many articles paper bank project various technical papers electronic form contact juhana kouhia tut online bibliography project the acm siggraph online bibliography project database over unique computer graphics and computational geometry references bibtex format available the computer graphics community research and educational resource the database located siggraph org users may download the bibtex files via ftp and peruse them offline telnet siggraph org and log biblio and interactively search the database for entries interest keyword for the people without internet access there also mail server send mail archive server siggraph org and the subject the body the message include the message send followed the topic and subtopic you wish good place start with the command send index which will give you date list available information additions corrections suggestions may directed the admin bibadmin siggraph org image manipulation libraries utah raster toolkit nice image manipulation tools pbmplus great package for image conversion and manipulation libtiff library for reading writing tiff images imagemagick package for display and interactive manipulation images uses its own format miff and includes some converters based image display manipulation and format converter xloadimage xli displays various formats screen khoros huge excellent system for image processing with visual programming interface and much much more uses windows fbm another set image manipulation tools somewhat old now img image manipulation displays screen bit old now xflick plays fli animation under xanim plays any resolution fli along with gif including gif animation extensions and amiga iff animations and iff pictures including ham ehb and color cycling sdsc sdsc image tools package san diego supercomputing center for image manipulation and conversion clrpaint bit paint program for sgi bit workstations and bit indigos libraries with code for graphics graphics gems iii code from the ever useful books spline patch tar spline patch ray intersection routines sean graves kaleido computation and display uniform polyhedra mirrored wuarchive this package computes and displays the metrical properties polyhedra author zvi har mail gauss technion means site official distributor most date north america please look for things your own continent first wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics get contents file for roadmap graphics graphics objects tddd the ttddd objects and converters mirrors unix graphics rayshade ray tracer mtv ray tracer vort ray tracer fbm pbmplus popi utah raster toolkit mirrors msdos graphics dkb ray tracer fli raytracker demos pub rad tar sgi rad graphics graphics radiosity radiance and indian radiosity package msdos ddjmag ddj zip version xsharp with fast texture mapping there lots more including bibs graphics gems code off rtn radiance nff sipp spline patch intersection routines textbook errata source code from roy hall book illumination and color computer generated imagery etc graphics graphics packages kaleido kaleido george kyriazis kyriazis turing rpi edu princeton edu pub graphics note capital rayshade ray tracer and separate executable color quantization code spd news wilson abstracts bib utah raster toolkit newer fbm graphics gems iii code pub graphics directory salem and other stuff craig kolb cek princeton edu replaces weedeater math yale edu note the capital pub graphics because there trouble with princeton incoming area you can upload rayshade specific stuff weedeater math yale edu alfred ccs carleton pub dkbtrace dkb ray tracer pub pov ray pov ray pvray compuserve group ray tracer pov david buck david buck carleton avalon chinalake navy mil objects multiple formats utilities file format documents this site was created object repository for the net francisco dejesus dejesus archimedes chinalake navy mil omicron unc edu pub softlab chvrtd chapel hill volume rendering test datasets ftp com official ddj ftp repository xsharp peipa essex the pilot european image processing archive directory ipa synth something like that there are image synthesis packages adrian clarke alien essex barkley berkeley edu tcl extensions tsipp tar tcl sipp mark diekhans markd grizzly com markd neosoft com acs cps msu edu pub sass window fonts converter into rayshade polygons rayshade animation tool ron sass sass cps msu edu hobbes lbl gov radiance ray trace radiosity package greg ward gjward lbl gov geom umn edu pub geomview geomview contact for geomview software geom umn edu ftp arc umn edu pub gvl tar the latest version bob icol and raz source manual man pages and binaries for irix are included bob real time volume renderer pub contains also many volume datasets ken chin purcell ken ahpcrc umn edu ftp kpc com pub graphics holl steve hollasch thesis pub graphics ray ray pub graphics wire wire pub mirror avalon mirror avalon objects repository steve hollasch hollasch kpc com swedishchef lerc nasa gov programs hollasch ray sgi explorer modules and postscript manual etc zamenhof rice edu pub graphics formats various electronic documents about many object and image formats mark hall foo rice edu will apparently longer maintaining see ftp ncsa uiuc edu rascal ics utexas edu misc mac inqueue vision facet based modeller can output rayshade and radiance files ftp ncsa uiuc edu misc file formats graphics formats contains various image and object format descriptions many scivi tools various directories sgi alpha shape alvis tar alpha shape visualizer sgi machines only sgi polyview polyview interactive visualization and analysis geometrical structures quincey koziol koziol ncsa uiuc edu tucana noao edu iraf the iraf astronomy package ftp ipl rpi edu sigma erich spd images and haines thesis images pub images various and bit image stills and sequences kevin martin sigma ipl rpi edu ftp psc edu pub tar lispy scene language renderers joel welling welling seurat psc edu ftp lbl gov pbmplus tar rayshade data files jef poskanzer jef ace lbl gov george lbl gov pub ccs lib ccs tar ccs complex conversion system standard software interface for image processing hanauma stanford edu pub graphics comp graphics best comp graphics very extensive ray tracers dbw mtv qrt and more joe dellinger joe hanauma stanford edu ftp net graphics irit news back issues not complete nurbs models other graphics related material graphics jpeg jpegsrc tar independent jpeg group package for reading and writing jpeg files freebie engin umich edu utah raster toolkit spencer thomas thomas eecs umich edu export lcs mit edu contrib pbmplus image magick xloadimage xli img lots more pub untarred mit demos gpc ncga graphics performance characterization gpc suite life pawl rpi edu pub ray kyriazis stochastic ray tracer george kyriazis kyriazis turing rpi edu utah edu pub utah raster toolkit nurbs databases jamie painter jamie utah edu gatekeeper dec com pub dec off tar off models also gpc benchmark files planned but not checked randi rost rost kpc com hubcap clemson edu pub amiga incoming imagine stuff for the amiga imagine turbo silver ray tracers pub amiga ttdddlib ttdddlib pub amiga incoming imagine objects many objects glenn lewis glewis pcocd intel com pprg eece unm edu pub khoros khoros image processing package huge but great danielle argiro danielle bullwinkle unm edu expo lcs mit edu contrib pbmplus portable bitmap package poskbitmaptars bitmap collection raveling img xloadimage jef poskanzer jef well venera isi edu pub img tar and img tar some image manipulation pub images rgb separation photos paul raveling raveling venera isi edu ucsd edu graphics utah rle toolkit pbmplus fbm databases mtv dbw and other ray tracers world map other stuff not updated much recently castlab engr wisc edu pub tar pub xdart xdart mark spychalla spy castlab engr wisc edu sgi com graphics tiff tiff spec libtiff software and pics also much sgi and related stuff opengl manuals sam leffler sam sgi com supercedes okeeffe berkeley edu for the libtiff stuff surya waterloo edu graphics fbm ray tracers ftp sdsc edu sdscpub sdsc ftp brl mil brl cad information how get the brl cad package ray tracer images various test images texture library has also begun here lee butler butler brl mil cicero umass edu texture temp grayscale brodatz textures from julien flack julien scs leeds karazm math edu pub graphics rtabs shar wilson abstracts pray eric townsend jet karazm math edu jet nas nasa gov ftp pitt edu users qralston images bit image archive small james ralston crawford qralston pitt edu ftp cornell edu pub vis vrend sunee waterloo edu pub raytracers vivid rend sunee uwaterloo archive umich edu msdos graphics graphics stuff msdos graphics raytrace vivid apple apple com pub archivevol prt research att com netlib graphics spd package polyhedra polyhedra databases you don have ftp use the netlib automatic mail replier uucp research netlib internet netlib ornl gov send one line message send index for more info send haines from graphics get the spd siggraph org siggraph archive site publications online bibliography project conference proceedings various electronic formats papers panels siggraph video review information and order forms other stuff various directories automatic mailer archive server siggraph org send index ftp unc edu pub reaction diffusion greg turk work reaction diffusion textures windows code siggraph avs ncsc org ftp volvis volume datasets from the boston workshop volume visualization this site also the international avs center terry myerson tvv ncsc org uvacs virginia edu pub suit demo sparc dec etc suit simple user interface toolkit finger suit uvacs virginia edu get detailed instructions nexus yorku pub reports radiosity code tar rad pub reports radiosity thesis rad msc thesis this site will changed ftp yorku the near future milton washington edu ftp public veos veos virtual reality and distributed applications prototyping environment for unix veos software support veos support hitl washington edu oldpublic fly fly visualization software demo that package built for fly throughs from various datasets near real time there are binaries for many platforms also much other virtual reality stuff zug csmil umich edu xpecs files lcd glass shutter for amiga computers great for stuff sugrfx acs syr edu various stereo pair images has closed down sunsite unc edu pub academic computer science virtual reality final copy the sugrfx acs syr edu archive that ceased exist contains powerglove code papers images and irc research material jonathan magid jem sunsite unc edu archive cis ohio state edu pub siggraph code for siggraph course procedural modeling and rendering techniques david ebert ebert cis ohio state edu lyapunov ucsd edu this machine considered the repository for preprints and programs for nonlinear dynamics signal processing and related subjects and fractals course matt kennel mbk inls ucsd edu cod nosc mil pub grid tex ascii short survey methods interpolate and contour bivariate data ics uci edu honig various stereo pair images movie animates movie display bit and mono with digital subtraction taurus nps navy mil pub dabro cyberware demo tar human head data pioneer unm edu pub texture maps hans buf grayscale test textures aerial swatches brodatz textures synthetic swatches space planetary image repository provides access roms with data images line time pub info beginner info here you should start browsing colby kraybill opus pioneer unm edu brown edu srgp sphigs for more info srgp sphigs mail software distribution graphtext brown edu pdb pdb bnl gov has data about various organic molecules bonds between the different atoms etc atomic coordinates and load other stuff are contained the ent files but the actual atomic dimemsions seem missing you could convert these data pov rayshade etc biome bio pub art some renoir paintings escher pictures etc umanitoba specmark sample set images from the images from the edge rom images atomic landscapes advanced semiconductors superconductors and experimental surface chemistry among others contact ruskin umanitoba explorer dgp toronto edu pub sgi clrpaint clrpaint pub sgi clrview clrview tool that aids visualization gis datasets may formats like dxf dem arc info etc ames arc nasa gov pub space cdrom images from magellan and viking missions etc get pub space index first pub spacelink has most the spacelink service data see below mail server available send mail archive server ames arc nasa gov ames archive server with subject help send space index without the quotes peter yee yee ames arc nasa gov pubinfo jpl nasa gov images other data etc from jpl missions modem access parity data bits stop bit newsdesk jplpost jpl nasa gov phone spacelink msfc nasa gov passwd guest space graphics and gif images from nasa planetary probes and the hubble telescope main function support for teachers you can telnet also this site dial access baud bits parity stop bit stsci edu hubble space telescope stuff images and other data read the readme first pete reppert reppert stsci edu chris dea odea stsci edu pit manager mit edu pub usenet news answers the land faqs graphics and pictures directories particular interest also available from mail server pit manager mit edu sending mail message containing help uucp archive avatar news back issues for details write kory hamzeh kory avatar avatar com europe nic funet pub sci papers paper bank project including pete shirley entire thesis with pics wilson abstracts pub misc cia worldmap cia world data bank comp graphics research archive india and much much more juhana kouhia tut dasun epfl radiance good for european sites but doesn carry the add ons that are available for radiance isy liu pub sipp sipp tar sipp scan line buffer and phong shading renderer jonas yngvesson jonas isy liu irisa ipsc pray ray tracer spd nff many non spd nff format scenes rayshade data files didier badouel badouel irisa irisa may have disappeared phoenix oulu fli raytracker animation files vga also big flis rayscene demos americans check wuarchive first more animations come jari kahkonen hole phoenix oulu jyu pub graphics ray traces many ray tracers including pray dbw dkb mtv qrt rayshade some news nff files jari toivanen toivanen jyu garbo uwasa much stuff etc source contour fortran program contour scattered data using linear triangle based interpolation asterix inescn pub rtrace rtrace nffutils tar nff utilities for rtrace medical data cat etc converters nff autocad nff autolisp code autocad scn rtrace language converter and other goodies antonio costa acc asterix inescn vega hut graphics rtn archive ray tracers mtv qrt others nff some models was shut down months ago check under nic funet nfotis sun nluug pub graphics raytrace dbw microray mtv etc unix hensa misc unix ralcgm ralcgm tar cgm viewer and converter there mail server also mail archive unix hensa with the message body send misc unix ralcgm ralcgm tar maeglin luth graphics raytracing prt others doc wilson abstracts vivid ftp berlin pub unix graphics rayshade inputs tar rayshade aquarium americans check princeton edu first heiko schlichting heiko math berlin maggia ethz pub inetray inetray and sun rpc code andreas thurnherr ant ips ethz osgiliath dth pub amiga graphics radiance amiga port radiance per bojsen bojsen ithil dth ftp informatik uni oldenburg pov raytracer mirrored wuarchive has many goods for pov pub dkbtrace incoming polyray polyray raytracer pub dkbtrace incoming ftp uni pub amiga raytracing imagine mirror the hubcap imagine files neptune inf ethz xyz xyz geobench peter schorn schorn inf ethz iamsun unibe graphics graphtal system interpreter christoph streit streit iam unibe amiga physik unizh amiga gfx graphics stuff for the amiga computer stesis eso org line access huge astronomical database login starcat passwd decnet stesis the space telescope european coordination facility benoit pirenne bpirenne eso org phone middle east gauss technion kaleida australia gondwana ecr pub vort art ray tracer vogle wilson ray tracing abstracts pub contrib artscenes art scenes from italy pub images haines haines thesis images graphics gems code spd nff off databases nff and off previewers plus some and bit images and lots other stuff pub rad tar sgi rad bernie kirby bernie ecr munnari pub graphics vort tar vort art csg and algebraic surface ray tracer vogle pub dbw pbmplus graphics room tar art scenes from italy david hook dgh munnari marsh curtin edu pub graphics bibliography facial animation pub graphics bibliography morph pub graphics bibliography stuff about facial animation morphing and user interfaces pub fascia fred parke fascia program valerie hall val lillee curtin edu oceania asia ccu auckland ftp mac architec vision facet based modeller can output rayshade files many other neat things for macs paul bourke pdbourke ccu auckland for users outside wuarchive wustl edu directory mirrors architec scslwide sony ftp sgi facial animation steve franks site for facial animation steve franks stevef csl sony stevef umr edu mail servers and graphics oriented bbses please check first with the ftp places above with archie help don overuse mail servers there are some troubles with wrong return addresses many these mail servers have command like path valid return mail address get hint for sending back you stuff dec ftpmail send one line message ftpmail decwrl dec com without subject field and having line containing the word help you should get back message detailing the relevant procedures you must follow order get the files you want note that the reply answer command your mailer will not work for this message any other mail you receive from ftpmail send requests ftpmail send original mail message not reply complaints should sent the ftpmail request uucp dec com address rather than postmaster since decwrl postmaster not responsible for fixing ftpmail problems bitftp for bitnet sites only there bitftp pucc send one line help message this address for more info red red listserv redirector essentially mail server the server sites that are available are location earn bitnet internet turkey trickle trearn trickle ege edu denmark trickle dktc italy trickle imipoli belgium trickle banufs trickle ufsia austria trickle awiwuw germany trickle rus trickle rusvm rus uni stuttgart israel trickle taunivm trickle tau netherlands trickle hearn trickle hearn nic surfnet france trickle frmop trickle frmop cnusc colombia trickle unalcol trickle unalcol unal edu taiwan trickle twnmoe trickle twnmoe edu you are urged use the one that closer your location send message one these containing the body help and you get more instructions lightwave mail based file server mail based file server for objects bit jpeg images gif images and image maps now online for all those with internet mail access the server the official archive site for the lightwave mail list and contains many and shareware graphics utilities for several computer platforms including amiga atari ibm and macintosh the server resides bbs called the graphics bbs the bbs operational hours day days week the phone number has upgraded its modem hayes ultra bis bis which has speeds from bps bps you would like submit objects scenes images the server please pack uuencode and then mail the files the address server bobsbox rent com for information obtaining files from the server send mail message the address file server graphics rent com with the following the body the message help dir and help file describing how use the server and complete directory listing will sent you via mail now includes the cyberware head and shouders ttddd format check out only you can use ftp nfotis inria graphlib pierre jancene and sabine coquillart launched the inria graphlib mail server few months ago echo help mail inria graphlib inria will give you quick summary what inria graphlib contains and how browse among its files echo send contents mail inria graphlib inria will return the extended summary other example echo send cgrl from misc mail inria graphlib inria will return the computer graphics resource listing mirrored from comp graphics bbses there are many bbses that store datafiles etc etc but guide these beyond the scope this listing and the resources the author you can point internet mail accessible bbses that carry interesting stuff send info studio amiga modelling and ray tracing specific bbs hours meg online from jeff walkup pwappy well the castle bis bis mnp pacifica dang close san francisco california usa the new user password tao oin base the castle anim video which the sig lazerus bob lindabury operates bbs see above the entry for the graphics bbs you can call ray ray tracing related bbs chicago suburbs digital pixel sysop mark mcng descartes waterloo edu based toronto ontario canada phone storage space megs modem type baud zyxel bis mnp access fee none free system supported dos amiga mac netmail currently echo mail topics raytracing fractals graphics programming cad any comp graphics related from david tiberio dtiberio sunysb edu amiga graphics bbs long island new york running hours bis with megs line also subscribe mailing lists which originate from our bbs with more added soon these include lightwave imagine real ray tracing database files include imagine objects renderings scalable fonts music modules sound samples demos animations utilities text databases and pending lightwave objects the graphics alternative the graphics alternative cerrito running hours day hst bis with online and user base tga runs two nodes node for public access and includes free day trial subscription tga the west coast host for pcgnet the profesional cad and graphics network supporting nodes across the continental alaska new zealand australia france and the tga file database includes dos executables for pov vivid rtrace rayshade polyray and others tga also has numerous graphics utilities viewers and conversion utilities registered vivid users can also download the latest vivid aeta code from special vivid conference from scott bethke sbathkey access digex com the intersection bbs this bbs dedicated supporting animators the system provided free charge and not commercialized anyway users are given full access the first call features usenet news internet mail fidonet echo netmail megs online bis bis modem platforms interest amiga the videotoaster macintosh dos unix workstations sun sgi etc atari from alfonso hermida afanh robots gsfc nasa gov square bbs maryland supports raytracers such pov and vivid the bbs runs off mhz megs hard drive and rom now runs bps this will change soon topics graphics programming animation raytracing programming general from lynn falkow roxxie delphi com vertech design graphic connection portland oregon bis the bbs aside from carrying typical bbs services like message bases all topic specific and files cad and graphics related hundreds megabytes also offers material texture files that are full color seamlessly tiling photo realistic images there are samples available first time callers the bbs subscription system although callers have hours before they must subscribe and there are several subscription rates available people interested materials can subscribe the library addition basic subscription rate and can use their purchased time download whichever materials they wish ray tracing graphics related mailing lists imagine modeling and animation system for the amiga send subscription requests imagine request email paramax com send material imagine email paramax com dave wickard has substituted steve worley the maintenance the mailing list please note that the unisys com address longer valid lightwave for the amiga part newtek video toaster send subscription requests lightwave request bobsbox rent com send material lightwave bobsbox rent com bob lindabury toaster send subscription requests listserv karazm math edu with body subscribe toaster list real another modeling and animation system for the amiga subscribe send mail containing the body subscribe real your full name listserv uwa edu rayshade send subscription requests rayshade request princeton edu send material rayshade users princeton edu craig kolb alladin for the amiga send subscription requests subscribe xamiga linet org and the body the message write alladin username domain radiance greg ward the author sends registered via mail users digests his correspodence with them notes about fixes updates etc his address gjward lbl gov rend send subscription requests rend request sunee waterloo edu send material rend sunee waterloo edu pov ray dkb raytracers subscribe send mail containing the body subscribe dkb your full name listserv trearn bitnet send material dkb trearn bitnet mailing list for massively parallel rendering send subscription requests render request icase edu send material render icase edu graphics editors public domain free and shareware systems vision mac based program written paul bourke pdbourke ccu aukland the program can used generate models directly the rayshade and radiance file formats polygons only shareware and listed the ftp list brl solid modeling system for most environments including sgi and has csg and nurbs plus support for non manifold geometry whatever you can get free via ftp signing and returning the relevant license found ftp brl mil uses ray tracing for engineering analyses contact carla moyer tel fax cad dist brl mil mail snail mail brl cad distribution surviac aberdeen satellite office old philadelphia road suite aberdeen usa irit constructive solid geometry csg modeling program for and includes freeform surface support free see ftp list for where find surfmodel solid modeling program for written turbo pascal ken van camp available from simtel msdos srfmodl directory noodles from cmu namely fritz printz and levent gursoz elg styx edrc cmu edu based non manifold topology ask them for more info don know they give away xyz xyz interactive editor builder written dale stocker create objects for the surfacemodel automove and dkb raytracer packages xyz free and can found for example simtel msdos surfmodl xyz zip dos only dmod msdos program check barnacle erc clarkson edu pub msdos graphics dmod undocumented file format dmod micah silverman pierrepoint ave postdam new york tel northcad shareware msdos cad ncad zip simtel undocumented file format vertex amiga shareware send check money order the art machine nickolas sterling heights usa addition the now standard file formats including lightwave imagine sculpt turbo silver geo and wavefront this release offers professional and rayshade support rayshade supported only the primitive triangle but you can easily include this output your rayshade scripts the latest demo version available fred fish for more information contact the author alex deburie sycom org phone icoons amiga spline based object modeller icoons interactive coons path editor amiga physik unizh gfx icoons lzh free under the gnu licence and requires fpu the program has look feel which cross between journeyman and imagine and generates objects ttddd format possible load journeyman objects into icoons the program can used convert jman objects imagine format author helge rasmussen her compel phone fax also fred fish disk series nfotis protocad ver from trius shareware wsmr simtel army mil and oak oakland edu pcad zip for pcs has this menu layout file file handling load save import xport draw draw objects line circle box draw objects mesh sphere block edit editing features copy move surface modify objects revolve xtrude sweep image image zooming features update window half option global defaults grid toggles axis plot print drawing picture image render shade objects frame lighting tune layer layer options select active layer set colors sculptura runs under windows and outputs pov files demo can found wuarchive wustl edu mirrors win demo demo zip author michael gibson gibsonm stein washington edu commercial systems alpha spline based modeling program written university utah features splines trimmed nurbs support for boolean operations sweeps bending warping flattening etc groups objects and transformations extensible object types applications include machining animation utilities dimensioning fem analysis etc rendering subsystem with support for animations support the following platforms and sgi machines and irix sun sparcstation sunos licensing and distribution handled egs glenn mcminn president engineering geometry systems east south temple suite salt lake city mcminn utah edu educational pricing the charge per platform you may run the system many different workstations that type you wish for each platform there also licensing fee for portable standard lisp psl which bundled with the system you need obtain additional license from the university utah for psl from the following address professor robert kessler computer science department university utah salt lake city utah egs can handle the licensing psl for institutions for usd nominal fee nfotis vertigo they have educational institution program the package used the industrial design architectural scientific visualization educational broadcast imaging and post production fields they quoting from letter sent nfotis donate fully configured vertigo graphics software worth over usd per package qualified educational institutions for licencing any number silicon graphics personal iris power series workstations you use iris indigo station will also licence our vertigo revolution software worth usd you are interested participating this program please send letter mail fax your institution letterhead briefly outlining your potential uses for vertigo together with the following information unix version model and number sgi systems peripheral devices third party software participants will asked contribute usd per institution cover costs the manual administration and shipping recommend that vertigo users subscribe our technical support services for annual fee you will receive technical assistance our support hotline bug fixes software upgrades and manual updates for educational institution will waive the administration fee support purchased the annual support fee plus the following cost for additional machines number machines additional cost per machine there also day training program nfotis contact vertigo technology inc suite west georgia vancouver canada phone fax does anyone know such offers from tdi alias softimage wavefront etc this would very interesting part nfotis padl basically solid modeling kernel top which you build your application available license from cornell programmable automation cornell university engineering and theory center ithaca license fees are very low for educational institutions and gov agencies internal commercial licenses and dissemination licenses are available for information packet write the above address send your address marisa cpa cornell edu richard marisa acis from spatial technology solid modelling kernel callable from heard that many universities got free copies from the company the person contact regarding acis academic institutions scott owens mail sdo spatial com and their address spatial technology inc bldg boulder phone fax movie byu cquel byu basically understanding this fem pre and post proccessor system fairly old today but still serves some people mech eng depts now superseded from cquel byu pronounced sequel that complete modelling animation and visualization package runs the usual workstation environments sun dec sgi ibm and others you can get demo version days trial period either sending usd their address blank tape costs for full run time licence contact engineering computer graphics lab clyde building brigham young univ provo phone mail cquel byu edu twixt soon add stuff about get reply fax voxblast volume renderer marketed vaytek inc fairfield iowa phone running pcs with fpu least call vaytek for more info voxelbox volume renderer for windows features include direct ray traced volume rendering color and alpha mapping gradient lighting animation reflections and shadows runs higher with least bit video card svga fine under windows costs contact jaguar software inc main suite winchester jwp world std com john poduska scene description languages nff neutral file format eric haines very simple there are some procedural database generators the spd package and many objects floating various ftp sites there also previewer written starbase from haines also there one written vogle you can use any the devices vogle can output check sites carrying vogle like gondwana ecr off object file format from dec randy rost rost kpc com the object archive server seems mothballed future version remove the ref nfotis available also through their mail server obtain help about using this service send message with subject line containing only the word help and null message body object archive server decwrl dec com for ftp places get see the relevant place there off previewer for sgi machines called off preview godzilla cgl rmit there are previewers for xview and sunview also gondwana tddd library objects with translators from off nff rayshade imagine vort objects edited copy the announcement follows from raytracing news new library objects available via ftp steve worley worley cup portal com have assembled set over objects binary format called tddd these objects range from human figures airplanes from semi trucks lampposts these objects are all freely distributable and most have readmes that describe them order convert these objects human readable format file with the specification tddd included the directory with the objects there also shareware system called ttdddlib officially hubcap clemson edu that will convert ala pbm from various object formats imagine ttddd extension tddd off nff rayshade vort source included for amiga unix executables for the amiga also outputs framemaker mif files and isometric views postscript from pittsburgh supercomputing center the uses lisp with slight extensions store three dimensional models simple lisp interpreter included with the release there need have access any vendor lisp run this software the mouse driven user interfaces for motif open look and silicon graphics and the drawp subroutine library for generating without ever looking the underlying lisp the software currently supports nine renderers they are painter painter algorithm dore silicon graphics inc language generic phigs sun phigs dec phigs rayshade art ray tracer from vort package and pixar renderman the code available via anonymous ftp from the machines ftp psc edu directory pub and nic funet directory pub graphics programs renderman pixar renderman not free call pixar for details solids description formats eec esprit project cad cad interfaces has developed neutral file format for transfer cad data curves surfaces and solid models between cad systems and from cad caa computer aided analysis cam computer aided manufacturing iges now tries define standard tranfer solid models brep and csg the current standard number ansi for documentation you might want contact nancy flower ncga technical services and standards ext and the cost this standard not available electronic format pdes step this slowly emerging standard tries encompass not only the geometrical information but also for things like fem etc the main bodies besides this standard are nist and darpa you can get more information about pdes sending mail nptserver cme nist gov and putting the line send index the body not the subject area the message the people rutherford appleton lab are also working step tools they have express compiler and exchange file parser both available source form and for free for research purposes soon they will also have express based database system for the tools contact mike mead phone fax mail inf mcsun uknet rlinf inf nsfnet relay end part the resource listing nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ athens greece home esperidon internet nfotis theseas ntua halandri uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	apr computer graphics resource listing weekly part archive name graphics resources list part last modified computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part last change april plotting packages gnuplot one the best and plotting packages with online help command line driven interactive function plotting utility for unix msdos amiga archimedes and vms platforms least freely distributed supports many terminals plotters and printers and easily extensible include new devices was posted comp sources misc version plus patches you can practically find everywhere use archie find site near you the comp graphics gnuplot newsgroup devoted discussion gnuplot xvgr and xmgr ace xmgr plotting tool for unix workstations using openwindows there xview version called xvgr for suns collectively these tools are known ace compiling xmgr requires the motif toolkit version and xmgr will not compile under motif check ftp ccalmr ogi edu ccalmr pub acegr xmgr tar motif version ccalmr pub acegr xvgr tar xview version comments suggestions bug reports paul turner pturner amb ese ogi edu mail fails try pturner ese ogi edu due time constraints replies will few and far between robot release and limited based xview written fortran you need fortran compiler the translator mainly tested sun less decstations check ftp astro psu edu pub astrod plotting library this library fortran callable routines sunspot ceee nist gov xgobi being developed bellcore and its speciality are multidimensional data sets analysis and exploration you can call from the language also and works client using the athena widget set with ascii terminal distributed free charge from statlib cmu get via mail send email statlib temper stat cmu edu and the body area the message put the line send xgobi from general you want pick via ftp connect lib stat cmu edu log statlib and use your mail address your password then type general mget xgobi warning about sources large postscript manual read the relevant readme decide whether you need not pgplot runs vax vms and supposedly unix set fortran routines freely available though copyrighted and requiring nominal fee that includes contour plots and support for various devices including contact tjp deimos caltech edu ggraph host shorty wisc edu pub ggraph tar unknown more details epigraph for pcs call dvj lab phys lgu spb vladimir dmitriev for details you can get the program demo and play version sent budapest posta fiok hungary fax budapest multiplot xln for amigas shareware usd aust advanced package that has big list features contact alan baxter agb mbuc bio cam cambridge university department pathology tennis court road cambridge athena plotter widget set this version based gregory bond version beta added some stuff for scientific graphs log axes free scalable axes lineplots and some more and added plotter callbacks from request the current pointer position cut off rectangle from the plotting area for zooming version has log bugs fixed and log improvements against beta additionally did some other changes extensions besides origin and frame lines for axes subgrid lines subtic positions line plots different line types lines points lines points impulses lines impulses steps bars line styles solid dotted dashed dot dashed and marker types for data points legend the right left hand side the plot optional drawing pixmap instead window layout callback for aligning axis positions when using multiple plotters one application available export lcs mit edu directory contrib plotter sciplot sciplot scientific plotting and manipulation program for the next requires nextstep and shareware features ascii import and export eps export copy cut paste with data buffer free number data points data buffer and document window selective open and save plotting many styles automatic legend subviews linear and logarithmic axes two different axes text and graphic color support zoom normalizing and moving axis conversions free hand data manipulations cut edit move etc data editor sorting data absolute relative and free defined error bars calculating with buffers background subtractions linear shirley tougaard bezier integration and relative integration fitting one more free defined functions linear regression calculations sin cos log etc function generator spline interpolation least square smooth and fft smooth differentiation fft esca calculations and database and something more you can find ftp berlin pub next science sciplot tar author michael wesemann scillerstr berlin germany mike fiasko berlin mpg plplot plplot scientific plotting package for many systems small micro and large super alike despite its small size and quickness has enough power satisfy most users including standard plots semilog plots log log plots contour plots plots mesh plots bar charts and pie charts multiple graphs the same different sizes may placed single page with multiple lines each graph different line styles widths and colors are supported virtually infinite number distinct area fill patterns may used there are almost characters the extended character set this includes four different fonts the greek alphabet and host mathematical musical and other symbols the fonts can scaled any size for various effects many different output device drivers are available system dependent including portable metafile format and renderer freely available but copyrighted via anonymous ftp hagar utexas edu directory pub plplot present plplot known work the following systems unix sunos unicos ultrix other platforms vms amiga exec dos next authors many the main supporters are maurice lebrun mjl fusion utexas edu plplot kernel and the metafile xterm xwindow tektronix and amiga drivers geoff furnish furnish fusion utexas edu dos and drivers tony richardson amr egr duke edu plplot the next supermongo plotting package cmu filename tmp tar probably under the ftp cmu edu andrew cmu edu machines gle gle high quality graphics package for scientists runs variety platforms pcs vaxes and unix with drivers for xwindows regis tek graphics cards plotters postscript printers epson compatible printers and laserjet paintjet printers provides latex quality fonts well full support for postscript fonts the graphing module provides full control over all features graphs the graphics primitives include user defined subroutines for complex pictures and diagrams accompanying utilities include surface for hidden line surface plotting contour for contour plots manip for manipulation columnar data files and fitls for fitting arbitrary equations data available via anon ftp these places gle simtel wuarchive wustl edu and other mirrors msdos graphics gle unix gle zephyr grace cri pub gle unix vms gle zephyr grace cri pub gle vms mailing list glelist send message listserver tbone biol scarolina edu with message boyd containing sub glelist your name maintainer dean pentcheff dean tbone biol scarolina edu image analysis software image processing and display and mac based tools multi platform software imdisp imdisp written jpl and other nasa sites can simple display enhancing smoothing and works with the fits and vicar pds data formats nasa can read tiff images you know their dimensions and macs labview labview used framework for image processing tools provides graphical programming environment using block diagram sketch the program with graphical elements representing the programming elements hundreds functions are already available and are connected using wiring tool create the block diagram program functions that the block diagrams represent include digital signal processing and filtering numerical analysis statistics etc the tool allows any virtual instrument software file that looks and acts like real laboratory instrument used part any other virtual instrument national instruments markets plug digital signal processing dsp boards for macintoshs and compatables that allow real time acquisition and analysis personal computer new software tools for dsp are allowing engineers harness the power this technology the tools range from low level debugging software high level block diagram development software there are three levels dsp programming associated with the dsp board and labview use the dsp analysis library ffts power spectra filters routines callable from think and macintosh programers workshop mpw that execute the dsp board there analysis virtual interface library ready use vis optimized for the dsp use the national instruments developers toolkit that includes optimizing compiler assembler and linker for low level programming the dsp hardware this approach offers the highest level performance but the must difficult terms ease use use the national instruments interface kit software package which has utility functions for memory management data communications and downloading code the dsp board this the easiest route for the development custom code ultimage concept concept graftek france family image processing virtual instruments vis that give labview described above users high end tools for designing integrating and monitoring imaging control systems software file that looks and acts like real laboratory instrument typical applications for concept include thermography surveillance machine vision production testing biomedical imaging electronic microscopy and remote sensing ultimage concept addresses applications which require further qualitative and quantitative analysis includes complete set functions for image enhancement histogram equalization spatial and frequency filtering isolation features thresholding mathematical morphology analysis density measurement object counting sizing and characterization the program loads images with minimum resolution pixel depth bits and one image plane standard input and output formats include pict tiff satie and aipd other formats can imported image enhancement features include lookup table transformations spatial linear and non linear filters frequency filtering arithmetic and logic operations and geometric transformations among others morphological transformations include erosion dilation opening closing hole removal object separation and extraction skeletons among others quantitative analysis provides for objects detection measurement and morphological distribution measures include area perimeter center gravity moment inertia orientation length relevant chords and shape factors and equivalence measures are saved ascii format the program also provides for macro scripting and integration custom modules view command plots perspective data graph where image intensity depicted mountains valleys the plot the histogram tool can plotted with either linear logarithmic scale the twenty eight arithmetic and logical operations provide for masking and averaging sections images noise removal making comparisons etc there are spatial filters that alter pixel intensities based local intensity these include high pass filters for contrast and outlines the frequency data resulting from fft analysis can displayed either the real imaginary components the phase magnitude data the morphological transformations are useful for data sharpening and defining objects for removing artifacts the transformations include thresholding eroding dilating and even hole filling the program quantitative analysis measurements include area perimeter center mass object counts and angle between points gtfs inc bennett valley road santa rosa iplab spectrum iplab spectrum supports image processing and analysis but lacks the morphology and quantitative analysis features provided graftek franceus ultimage concept using scripting tools the user tells the system the operations performed the problem that far too many basic operations require manual intervention the tool supports ffts arithmetic operations for pixel alteration and movie command for cycling through windows macintosh based tools ncsa image ncsa paledit and more ncsa provides whole suite public domain visualization tools for the macintosh primarily aimed researchers wanting visualize results from numerical modelling calculations these applications documentation and source code are available for anonymous ftp from ftp ncsa uiuc edu commercial versions the ncsa programs have been developed spyglass spyglass inc devonshire drive champaign fax nih image available alw nih gov preferably zippy nimh nih gov directory pub image has painting and image manipulation tools macro language tools for measuring areas distances and angles and for counting things using frame grabber card can record sequences images played back movie can invoke user defined convolution matrix filters such gaussian can import raw data tab delimited ascii byte quantities also does histograms and even plots limited bits pixel though the bits map into color lookup table runs any mac that has color screen and fpu get the nonfpu version from zippy nimh nih gov photomac data translation inc locke marlboro photopress blue solutions marigold place thousand oaks pixeltools and tcl image complete family pixeltools hardware accelerator and applications software for scientific image processing and analysis video rate capture display processing and analysis high resolution monochromatic and color images includes source code tcl image software package for scientific quantitative image processing and analysis provides complete language for the capture enhancement and extraction quantitative information from gray scale images tcl image has over functions for image processing and contains the other elements needed full programming language for algorithm development variables and control structures easily extensible through script indirect command files these script files are simply text files that contain tcl image commands they are executed normal commands and include the ability pass parameters the direct capture video images supported via popular frame grabber boards tcl image comes with the view utility that provides conversion between common image file types such pict and tiff perceptics pellissippi parkway knoxville satellite image workshop comes with number satellite pictures raw data and does all sorts image enhancing you need least mac with processor color display and large harddisk the program doesn run under system ate the documentation the contact address given liz smith jet propulsion laboratory oak grove pasadena visualization workbench electronic imaging software system that performs interactive image analysis and scientific and plotting paragon imagine lincoln lowell adobe photoshop the tool supports rtrue colors with bit images levels grey scale once image has been imported can rre toucheds with various editing tools typical those used macintosh based rpaints applications these include eraser pencil brush and air brush advanced rpastes tools that control the interaction between pasted selection and the receiving site have also been incorporated for example all red pixels selection can easily preventing from being pasted photoshop has transparencies ranging from allowing you create ghost overlays rphoto editings tools include control the brightness and contrast color balancing hue saturation modification and spectrum equalization images can subjected various signal processing algorithms smooth sharpen the image blur edges locate edges image scaling also supported for storage savings the images can compressed using standard algorithms including externally supplied compression such jpeg availlable from storm technologies the latest version adobe photoshop supports the import numerous image formats including epsf epsf tiff pict resource amiga iff ilbm compuserve gif macpaint pixar pixelpaint scitex tga and thunderscan adobe systems inc charlestown road box mountain view colorstudio and imagestudio colorstudio image editing and paint package from letraset that has more features than adobe photoshop but decidedly more complex and therefore more difficult use several steps are often required accomplish that which can done single step using photoshop the application requires great deal available disk space one can easily end with images the range the program provides variety powerful selection tools including the auto selection tool which lets the user choose image areas the basis color close hues color range and mask imagestudio don know letraset usa eisenhower drive paramus dapple systems high resolution image analysis software provides processing tools work with multiple images enhance and edit and measure variety global feature parameters and interpret the data dapple systems olive ave sunnyvale digital darkroom the latest release digital darkroom has five new selection and editing tools for enhancing images one such feature allows the user select part image simply painting new polyline selection tool creates selection tool for single pixel wide selections brush lets the operator paint with selected portion the image note that this not true color image enhancement tool this tool should used when the user intends operate grey scale images only should noted that digital darkroom not powerful either adobe photoshop colorstudio silicon beach software carroll ctr suite san diego dimple compatible with system and system requires mac series with colours with recommended min ram has the capability reading erdas files functions include image enhancement and contour plots image statistics supervised and unsupervised classification pca and other image transformations there also means image operation language iol which you can write your own transformations there image rectification however dimple compatable with mapii the latest version and the beta stage testing dimple was initially developed teaching tool and very good for this purpose dimple runs colour macintosh product still its development phase doesn have all the inbuilt features other packages but coming along nicely has its own inbuilt language for writing programs for processing image defining convolution filters etc dimple full mac application with pull down menus etc unprotected software process software solutions box wollongong new south wales australia phone fax enhance enhance has rrulers tool that supports measurements and additionally provides angle data the tool has over mathematical filter variations laplacian medium noise filter etc files can saved either tiff pict epsf text however epsf files can imported microfrontier hickman road des moines image analyst image processing product for users who need extract quantitative data from video images image analyst lets users configure sophisticated image processing and measurement routines without the necessity knowing programming language designed for such tasks computing number and size cells images projected video cameras attached microscopes enhancing and measuring distances radiographs image analyst provides users with array field proven video analysis techniques that enable them easily assemble sequence instructions enhance feature appearance count objects determine density shape size position movement perform object feature extraction and conduct textural analysis automatically image analyst works with either framegrabber board and any standard video camera disk stored image within minutes without the need for programming the image analyst user can set process identify and analyze any element image measurements and statistics can automatically semi automatically generated from tiff pict files from captured video tape images image analyst recognizes items images based their size shape and position the tool provides direct support for the data translation and scion frame grabbers menu command allows for image capture from vcr video camera other ntsc pal devices there are types files the image itself and the related sequence file that holds the processing measurements and analysis that the user defines automated sequences are set regions interest roi represented movable sizable boxes atop the image inside roi the program can find the distance between two edges the area shape the thickness wall etc image analyst finds the center edge and other positions automatically the application also provides tools that the user can work interactively find the edge object also supports histograms and color look table clut tool automatix inc middlesex turnpike billerica iplab signal analytics corp maple ave vienna fax menu driven image processing software that supports bit color pseudocolor grayscale image display and manipulation map among the mac gis systems map distributed john wiley has integrated image analysis image from stanford try anonymous ftp from sumex aim stanford edu has source for image and ready run code for mac under image windows dos based tools ccd richard berry ccd imaging book for willamon bell contains optional disks with image manipulating software source code included erdas erdas will all the things you want rectification classification transformations canned user defined overlays filters contrast enhancement etc was using thesis then changed the topic bit that work became secondary erdas inc buford highway suite atlanta fax rsvga have been getting speed program called rsvga available from eidetic digital image ltd british columbia its for ibm clones cheap about and does all the stuff erdas does but not fast powerful though have had only limited experience with erdas have used rsvga with landsat bands and good starter program except for the obtuse manual imagine bit package suppose for pcs called imagine image the program does modest amount image processing add subtract multiply divide display and plot cut across the image can also display number images simultaneously the company compuscope santa barbara vista was announced the august edition pasp known available from mike richmond whose email addresses have been richmond bllac berkeley edu richmond bkyast berkeley edu and his mail address michael richmond astronomy department campbell hall berkeley the latest version vista version includes not only the source code and help files but also complete set executable programs and number sample fits images you wish use the source code you will need microsoft version later other compilers may work but will require substantial modifications receive the documentation and nine double density floppies three quad density inch floppies with everything them just send request for vista together with your name and mail address office technology licensing shattuck ave suite berkeley include check traveller checks are fine purchase order for dollars your address inside the continental otherwise made out regents the university california cover duplication and mailing costs software tools set software tools put out canyon state systems and software they are not free but rather cheap about heard will handle most all the formats used frame grabber software mirage image processing software written jim gunn the astrophysics dept princeton will run among other platforms forth based system forth language with many image processing displaying functions built data translation source book the data translation company massachusetts publishes free book containing vendors data analysis hardware and software which compatible with data translation and other frame grabbers surely you can find much more related stuff maxen couple canadians have written program named maxen which does maximum entropy image deconvolution their company named digital signal processing software something like that and the software mentioned article astronomy magazine either jan feb article ccd film jandel scientific java another software package java put out jandel scientific jandel scientific koch road corte madera microbrian runs dos platform and uses bit graphics card vista about released version will support number super vga cards its full blown remote sensed data processing system menu driven character based screen but does not use windowed user interface its hardware protected with dongle mbrian micro barrier reef image anaysis system was developed csiro commonwealth scientific industrial organization and marketed supported mpa australia lusher road croydon victoria tel fax there are educational and commercial prices but prepared set aside for the first educational licence subsequent ones come cheaper they need has installed sites worldwide widely used anu microimage the remote sensing lab here dartmouth currently uses terra mar microimage pcs with some fancy display hardware terra mar resource information services inc landings drive mountain view fax unix based tools iraf image reduction and analysis facility developed the national optical astronomy observatory kitt peak free you can ftp from tucana noao edu and complement with stsdas from stsci edu email iraf noao edu for more details apparently this one the facto standards the astronomical image community they issue newsletter also they seem support very well their users works with vms also last heard and practically has its own shell top the vms unix shells suggested that you get copy saoimage for display under windows very flexible extendable tons literally linear feet documentation for the general user skilled user and programmer alv sun specific image toolkit version posted comp sources sun dec also available via email alv users request bris aips astronomical image processing system contact aipsmail nrao edu also see the usenet newsgroups alt sci astro aips and sci astro fits built nrao national radio astronomy observatory charlottesville sites software distributed track exabyte dat non anonymous internet ftp documentation postscript mostly available via anonymous ftp baboon nrao edu directory pub aips and pub aips text publ installation requires building the system and thus fortran and compiler this package can read and write fits data see sci astro fits and primarily for reduction analysis and image enhancement radio astronomy data from radio telescopes particularly the very large array vla synthesis instrument consists almost programs that everything from copying data sophisticated deconvolution via maximum entropy there based image tool xas and tek compatible xterm based graphics tool built into aips the xas tool modelled after the hardware functionality the international imaging systems model display unit and can image arithmetic etc the code mostly fortran with some system language modules and available for suns ibm dec ultrix convex cray unicos and alliant with support planned for solaris and maybe sgi there currently project aips underway rewrite the algorithmic functionality aips modern setting using and object oriented approach whereas aips proprietary code licensed for free non profit institutions owner nrao and the nsf aips will the public domain some level international effort with contributions from the canada england the netherlands india and australia name few laboimage version out for written and currently runs sun xxx sun xxx and under sunview the expert system for image segmentation written allegro common lisp was used the following domains computer science image analysis medicine biology physics distributed free charge source code available via anonymous ftp ftp ads com pub vision list archive shareware laboimage contact prof thierry pun computer vision group computing science center geneva rue lac geneva switzerland phone fax mail pun cui unige pun cgeuge bitnet figaro was originally made for vms and can obtained from keith shortridge australia aaoepp aao gov and for unix from sam southard caltech sns deimos caltech edu about mbytes sun khoros moved the scientific visualization category below vista the real thing available via anonymous ftp from lowell edu email vista lowell edu for more details total size less than mbytes disimp device independent software for image processing powerful system providing both user friendliness and high functionality interactive times feature description disimp incorporates rich library image processing utilities and spatial data options all functions can easily accessed via the disimp executive this menu modular design and groups image processes their function such logical structure means that complicated processes are simply progression through series modules processes include image rectification classification unsupervised and supervised intensity transformations three dimensional display and principal component analysis disimp also supports the more simple and effective enhancement techniques filtering band subtraction and ratioing host configuration requirements running unix workstations disimp capable processing the more computational intensive techniques interactive processing times disimp available both runtime and programmer environments using the programmers environment utilities can developed for specific applications programs graphics are governed icon based display panel which allows quick enhancments displayed image manipulations look tables colour stretches changes histograms zooming and panning can interactively driven through this control range geographic projections enables disimp integrate data image graphic and textual types images can rectified number coordinate systems providing the true geographic knowledge essential for ground truthing overlays grids text and vector data can added further enhance referenced imagery the system flexible package allowing users various skill levels determine their own working environment including the amount help required disimp comes fully configured with optional extras the purchase price includes all functionality required for professional processing remote sensed data for further information please contact the business manager clough engineering group systems division chapel street south yarra australia telephone fax global imaging software use global imaging software process avhrr data from the dish the final display select chunk five band data from pass automatic navigation calibrate albedo and temp convert that byte register predesigned window all relatively automatically and carefree has classification routines speak but isn that difficult write your own with their programmer module very small operation one designs one codes one sells been around for number years sold weather service and navy runs with supports bit display hips human information processing laboratory image processing system michael landy wrote and sell general purpose package for image processing which has been used for basically all the usual image processing applications robotics medical satellite engineering oil exploration etc called hips and deals with sequences multiband images the same way deals with single images has been growing since first wrote both additions from well huge user contributed library feature description hips set image processing modules which together provide powerful suite tools for those interested research system development and teaching handles sequences images movies precisely the same manner single frames programs and subroutines have been developed for simple image transformations filtering convolution fourier and other transform processing edge detection and line drawing manipulation digital image compression and transmission methods noise generation and image statistics computation over such image transformation programs have been developed result almost any image processing task can performed quickly and conveniently additionally hips allows users easily integrate their own custom routines new users become effective using hips their first day hips features images that are self documenting each image stored the system contains history the transformations that have been applied that image hips includes small set subroutines which primarily deals with standardized image sequence header and large library image transformation tools the form unix filters comes complete with source code line manual pages and line documentation host configuration requirements originally developed new york university hips now represents one the most extensive and flexible vision and image processing environments currently available runs under the unix operating system modular and flexible provides automatic documentation its actions and almost entirely independent special equipment hips now use variety computers including vax and microvax sun apollo masscomp ncr tower iris ibm etc for image display and input drivers are supplied for the grinnell and adage ikonas image processors and the sun sun sun and sun consoles also supply user contributed drivers for number other framestores and windowing packages sun gfx sun console matrox vip iti lexidata macintosh windowing system and iris the hipsaddon package includes interface for the crs simple matter interface hips with other frame stores and can put interested users touch with users who have interfaced hips with the arlunya and datacube max video hips can easily adapted for other image display devices because hips machine independent availability hips has proven itself highly flexible system both interactive research tool and for more production oriented tasks both easy use and quickly adapted and extended new uses hips supplied magnetic tape unix tar format either reel reel sun cartridge and comes with source code libraries library convolu tion masks and line documentation and manual pages michael landy sharpimage software box prince street station new york voice fax msl cns nyu edu mira please don confuse that with the thalmanns animation system from montreal these are altogether different beasts nfotis mira stands for microcomputer image reduction and analysis mira gives workstation level performance dos computers using svga cards color modes mira contains very handsome functional gui which mouse and keystroke operated mira reads writes tiff and fits formats native formats number ccd cameras and uncompressed binary images byte short integer and byte real pixel format dimensions the result image processing operation can short integer real pixels the same that the input image mira does the operation using short floating point arithmetic maintain the precision and accuracy the pixel format over functions are hand coded assembly language for maximum speed the intel hardware the entire graphical interface also written assembly language maximize the speed windowing operations windows for image and image data display and analysis have dedicated cursors which read position and value value real time you move the mouse there are also smooth real time contrast and brightness stretch and panning magnified portion the displayed image all operated the mouse wide selection grayscale pseudocolor and random palettes provided and other palettes can generated supported functions include such niceties the following image image interpolation image constant unary operations abs value polynomial pixel value chs log byteswap clip values upper lower limits short real real short combine images mean median mode sum pixel values with without autoscaling mean median mode image section convolutions filters laplacian sobel edge operator directional gradient line gaussian elliptical and rectangular equal weight filters unsharp masking median filters user defined filter kernel ellipse rectangle line gradient gaussian and user defined filters can rotated any specified angle ccd data reduction flat fielding dark subtraction column over underscan bias removal remove bad pixels and column defects normalize region target mean median modal value create subimage mosaic images get larger image collapse image into image plot section collapsed section image plot histogram region image review change image information header data rename keywords plot keyword values for set images luminance photometry elliptical circular aperture photometry brightness profile isophotal photometry between set upper lower luminances area and luminance inside traced polygon interactive background fitting and removal from part all image fit elliptical aperture shape image isophotes interactive with image contrast brightness diagonal plot pixel values distance between two points compute region stats centroid pan location image center zoom times change cursor rectangle crosshair full image crosshair off and adjust cursor size image select linear log gamma transfer function histogram equalization interactive specified image offset computation and sampling for registration interactive with image zoom both steps times current center plot enlarge framed area plot buffers can cycled through interactive data analysis polynomial fitting point deletion undelete change value point weighting linear and quadratic loess and binomial smoothing revert unit point weights original data buffer substitute results into data buffer for pass back calling function dump data buffer overlays and error bars file printer change user specified coordinate system tricolor image combination and display hardcopy halftone printout pcl compatible printers laserjet deskjet etc documentation over pages custom vinyl binder cost usd copy available from axiom research inc box tucson phone fax international marketing rep saguaro scientific corporation tucson arizona end part the resource listing nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ athens greece home esperidon internet nfotis theseas ntua halandri uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	apr computer graphics resource listing weekly part archive name graphics resources list part last modified computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part last change april scene generators geographical data maps data files dems digital elevation models dems digital elevation models well other cartographic data huge available from spectrum xerox com pub map contact lee moore webster research center xerox corp voice arpa internet moore wbst xerox com check also ncgia ucsb edu pub dems nfotis many these files are also available rom selled usgs scale digital line graph dlg data contains datas for all states price about call visit offices menlo park reston virginia usa maps the data user services division the bureau the census also has data rom tso standard format that derived from usgs map data call for more info they have bbs from dobbs march the defense mapping agency cooperation with their counterpart agencies canada the and australia have released the digital chart the world dcw this chart consists over gigabytes reasonable quality vector data distributed four roms includes coastlines rivers roads railrays airports cities towns spot elevations and depths and over place names iso compatible and only available from geological survey box denver federal center denver digital distribution services energy mines and resources canada booth street ottawa canada director general military survey survey elmwood avenue feltham middlesex united kingdom director survey australian army department defense campbell park offices campbell act australia fractal landscape generators public domain many people have written fractal landscape generators for example for the mac some these generators were written pdbourke ccu aukuni paul bourke many the programs are available from the ftp sites and mail archive servers check with archie commercial vista pro for the amiga from virtual reality labs list price about their address vrl ganador court san luis obispo telephone fax scenery animator also for the amiga the same caliber with vista pro check with natural graphics box raklin phone don forget ask about companion programs and data disks tapes vista pro has been ported the pcs cia world map note this database quite out date and not topologically structured you need standard for world cartographic data wait for the digital chart the world this database has been produced from the defense mapping agency oncs and will available together with searching and viewing software number roms later this summer check into hanauma stanford edu and ucsd edu see ftp list above the cia database consists coastlines rivers and political boundaries the form line strokes also hanauma stanford edu array elevation data containing one ieee floating point number for every half degree longitude and latitude program for decoding the database mfil can found the machine arc umn edu there another program which reads compressed cia data bank file and builds phigs hierachical structure uses phigs extension known polyline sets for performance but you can use regular polylines ask joe stewart joes lpi liant com the raw data stanford require the vplot package able view was posted comp sources unix more exact you have compile just the libvplot routines not the whole package ncar data ncar national center for atmospheric research has many types terrain data ranging from elevation datasets various resolutions information about soil types vegetation etc this data not free they charge from more depending the data volume and media exabyte tape cartridge track tape ibm floppy and ftp transfer are all available their data archive mostly research oriented not hobbyist oriented for more information email ilana ncar ucar edu unc data tapes with voxel data there are public domain tapes with data for the comparison and testing various volume rendering algorithms mainly mri and scans these tapes are distributed the softlab unc chapel hill softlab unc edu the data sets volume and are also available via anonymous ftp from omicron unc edu pub softlab chvrtd nasa many agencies such nasa publish roms with many altimetry data from various space missions viking for mars magellan for venus etc especially for nasa would suggest call the following address for more info national space science date center goddard space flight center greenbelt maryland telephone email address request nssdca gsfc nasa gov the data catalog not the data itself available online internet users can telnet nssdca gsfc nasa gov and log nodis password you can also dial baud bits parity one stop the enter number prompt enter and carriage return when the system responds call complete enter few more carriage returns get the username and log nodis password nssdca also anonymous ftp site but comprehensive list what there available present earth sciences data there listing anonymous ftp sites for earth science data including imagery this listing called earth sciences resources internet and you can get via anonymous ftp from csn org the directory cogs under the name internet resources earth sci some sites include aurelie soest hawaii edu pub avhrr images avhrr images ames arc nasa gov pub space cdrom images from magellan and viking missions etc pub space index contains listing files available the whole archive the index about itself there also mail server for the people without internet access send letter archive server ames arc nasa gov ames archive server the subject your letter the body use commands like send space index send space shuttle capitalization important only text files are handled the email server present vab larc nasa gov pub gifs misc landsat landsat photos gif and jpeg format was shut down nfotis anyone has copy this archive others daily values river discharge streamflow and daily weather data available from earthinfo central ave boulder these disks are expensive around but there are quantity discounts check vmd cso uiuc edu the directory carries data regarding surface analysis weather radar and sat view pics gif format updated hourly pioneer unm edu the space and planetary image facility located the university new mexico campus ftp server provides anonymous ftp access roms with data images disk with earthquake data topography gravity geopolitical info available from ngdc national geophysical data center broadway boulder eosat least the now sells landsat mss data older than two years old for per scene and they have been talking about similar deal for landsat data the mss data are bands meter resolution check out anonymous ftp ftp ncsa uiuc edu unix polyview alpha shape for tool that creates convex hulls alpha shapes generalization the convex hull from point sets the grips gov raster image processing software rom available from rom inc for code for viewing adrg arc digitised raster graphics files available the grips rom the army engineer topographic labs juan perez code also available via ftp adrg zip archive spectrum xerox com nrcc range data rioux cournoyer the nrcc three dimensional image data files tech report cnrc national research council canada ottawa canada from what understand these data are from laser range finder and you can copy for research purposes scanners digitized data cyberware labs monterey manufactures color laser digitizer which can used model parts complete human body they run service bureau also they can digitize models for you address cyberware labs inc harris suite monterey phone fax polhemus makes input device actually couple models that senses position and orientation based electromagnetic field interference this equipment also incorporated the vpl dataglove this hardware also called isotrack from keiser aerospace ascension technology makes similar input device there company applied sciences that makes input device position only based speed sound triangulation company that specializes digitizing viewpoint you can ask for viewpoint free page catalog full ready ship datasets from categories such cars anatomy aircraft sports boats trains animals and others though these objects are quite expensive the cataloge nevertheless interest for has pictures all the available objects wireframe polygon mesh contact viewpoint west center orem utah fax dataset some addresses for companies that make digitizers ascension technology bird flock birds big bird trackers box burlington phone fax polhemus incorporated digitizer trackers box hercules colchester tel logitech inc red baron ultrasonic mouse kaiser freemont tel shooting star technology mechanical headtracker holdom ave burnaby canada tel fax spaceball technologies inc spaceball stationary input device suffolk street lowell tel fax tel mountain view transfinite systems gold brick powerglove for macintosh box mit branch post office cambridge tel email applelink apple com vpl research inc eyephone head mounted display dataglove glove hand input device vpl research inc tower lane floor foster city tel fax simgraphics engineering flying mouse input device huntington suite south pasadena background imagery textures datafiles first check the ftp places that are mentioned the faq the ftp list above bit scanning get good bit scanner like epson suggested scsi port for speed eric haines had suggestion news volume scan textures for wallpapers and floor coverings etc from doll house supplies you have rather cheap way scan patterns that don have scaling troubles associated with real materials and scanning area books with textures find some houses books magazines that carry photographic material educorp sells roms with various imagery also wide variety stock art available stock art from big name stock art houses such comstock uniphoto and metro image base available italy there company called belvedere that makes such books for the purpose clipping their pages for inclusion your graphics work their address edition belvedere ltd rome italy piazzale flaminio tel fax texture libraries mannikin sceptre graphics announced textiles set bit textures initial shipments bit iff for amigas soon bit tiff format algorithmically built for tiled surfaces srp volume each volume images disks demo disks for are available contact mannikin sceptre graphics indiana ave winter park phone fax essence library sixty five new algoritmic textures for imagine impulse inc these textures are fully compatible with the floating point versions imagine imagine and even turbo silver written steve worley for more info contact essence info apex software publishing camino real suite menlo park usa what about texture city introduction rendering algorithms ray tracing assume you have general understanding computer graphics then read some the books that the faq contains for ray tracing would suggest introduction ray tracing andrew glassner academic press isbn note that have not read the book but feel that you can wrong using his book errata list was posted comp graphics eric haines erich eye com there more concise reference also roman kuchkuda unc chapel hill introduction ray tracing theoretical foundations for computer graphics and cad earnshaw nato vol printed springer verlag contains code for small but fundamentally complete ray tracer buffer depth buffer good reference procedural elements for computer graphics david rogers mcgraw hill new york pages and others more info needed nfotis where can find the geometric data for the teapot displays display column ieee jan has the whole story about origin the martin newell teapot the article also has the bezier patch model and pascal program display the wireframe model the teapot ieee sep jim blinn column jim blinn corner describes another way model the teapot bezier curves with rotations for example are used the off and spd packages have these objects you advised get them avoid typing the data yourself the off data triangles specific resolution around triangles meshing per patch the spd package provides the spline patch descriptions and performs tessellation any specified resolution space shuttle tolis lerios tolis nova stanford edu has built list space shuttle datafiles here summary from his sci space list model modified version the newsgroup model model vertices useful referred the polygon descriptions polygons vertex vertex vertex vertex payload doors non existent units unknown simon marshall marshall sequent hull has copy said there proprietary information associated with model the newsgroup model off format you can find gondwana ecr file pub off objects shuttle geo hanauma stanford edu pub graphics comp graphics objects shuttle data model the triangles model this model stored several files each defining portions the model greg henderson henders infonode ingr com has copy did not mention any restriction the model distribution model the nasa model the file starts off with header line containing three real numbers defining the offsets used lockheed their simulations offset offset offset from then the file consists sequence polygon descriptions vertices polygons vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex payload doors closed units inches jon berndt jon jsc nasa gov seems responsible for the model proprietary info unknown model the old shuttle model the file consists sequence polygon descriptions vertices polygons vertex vertex payload doors open units meters have been using this model star labs stanford university for some years now contact tolis nova stanford edu supervisor scott williams scott star stanford edu you want copy image annotation software touchup runs sunview and pretty good reads rasterfiles but even your image isn normally stored rasterfile format you could use screendump make rasterfile idraw part stanford interviews distribution can handle some image formats addition being macdraw like tool not sure exactly what they are you can ftp the idraw binary from interviews stanford edu tgif another macdraw like tool that can handle bitmap xbm and pixmap xpm formats the image you have formats other than xbm xpm you can get the pbmplus toolkit convert things like gif even some macintosh formats xpm tgif sources are available the pub directory ucla edu version tgif patchlevel plus patch and patch use the editimage facility khoros see below this just one utility the overall system you can essentially all your image processing and macdraw type graphics using this package you might able get with pbmplus pbmtext gives you text output bitmaps which can overlaid top your image ice requires sun hardware running openwindows postscript based graphical editor and available for anonymous ftp from internet host soest hawaii edu requires sun and two other locally developed packages the lxt library xlib based toolkit and small class library all files pub ice tar pub lxt tar and pub ldgoc tar are available compressed tar format pub ice tar contains readme that gives installation instructions well extensive man page ice statically linked compressed executable pub ice sun for sparc systems also available for ftp all software the property columbia university and may not redistributed without permission ice means image composition environment and imaging tool that allows raster images combined with wide variety postscript annotations wysiwyg fashion via imaging routines and news postscript rasterizing use imagemagick annotate image from your server pick the position your text with the cursor and choose your font and pen color from pull down menu imagemagick can read and write many the more popular image formats imagemagick available export lcs mit edu contrib imagemagick tar your nearest archive scientific visualization stuff data slice xds bundled with the distribution from mit the contrib directory available ftp ncsa uiuc edu either source binaries for various platforms national center for supercomputing applications ncsa tool suite platforms unix workstations dec ibm sgi sun apple macintosh cray supercomputers availability now available source code the public domain ftp from ftp ncsa uiuc edu contact national center for supercomputing applications computing applications building springfield ave champaign cost free zero dollars the suite includes tools for image and scene analysis and visualization the code actively maintained and updated spyglass they sell commercial versions the ncsa tools examples are spyglass dicer volumetric data analysis package platform mac spyglass transform data analysis package platforms mac sgi sun dec ibm contact spyglass inc box champaign khoros patch available via anonymous ftp pprg eece unm edu pub khoros see what available huge but good needs unix and freely copied not complete with sources and docs very extensive and its heart visual programming khoros components include visual programming language code generators for extending the visual language and adding new application packages the system interactive user interface editor interactive image display package extensive library image and signal processing routines and plotting packages see comp soft sys khoros usenet and the relative faq for more info contact the khoros group room eece dept university new mexico albuquerque email khoros request chama eece unm edu macphase analysis visualization application for the macintosh operates and data arrays import export several different file formats several different plotting options such gray scale color raster wire frame surface contour vector line and combinations ffts filtering and other math functions color look editor array calculator etc shareware available via anonymous ftp from sumex aim stanford edu the info mac app directory for other information contact doug norton mail compuserve com iris explorer application creation system developed silicon graphics that provides visualisation and analysis functionality for computational scientists engineers and other scientists the explorer gui allows users build custom applications without having write any minimal amount traditonal code also existing code can easily integrated into the explorer environment explorer currently available now sgi and cray machines but will become available other platforms time bundled with every new sgi machine far know see comp graphics explorer comp sys sgi for discussion the package there are also two ftp servers for related stuff modules etc ftp epcc swedishchef lerc nasa gov mirror the site ape back the old good days you could get ape for nearly free now has gone commercial and the following vendor supplies taravisual corporation harrison avenue columbus ohio tel and fax cost plus tax runtime version with site license for single user time limit the number machines cluster includes support maintenance and upgrades source code more additional user licenses the name the package has become ape iii khoros very similar ape philosophy are avs and explorer avs see also comp graphics avs platforms convex cray dec evans sutherland ibm kubota set technologies sgi stardent sun wavetracer availability avs available all the above for all unix workstations contact advanced visual systems inc fifth ave waltham telephone fax avs avs com email advanced visual systems inc for cray ibm sgi stardent sun convex for convex advanced visual systems inc cray for cray dec for dec evans sutherland for evans sutherland advanced visual systems inc ibm for ibm kubota pacific inc for kubota set technologies for set technologies wavetracer for wavetracer ftp site for modules data sets other info avs ncsc org wit nutshell package the same genre avs explorer etc seems more image processing system than generic scivi system imho major elements are visual programming language which automatically exploits the inherent parallelism code generator which converts the graph standalone program iconified libraries present rich set point filter transform morphological segmentation and measurement operations flow library allows graphs employ broadcast merge synchronization conditional and sequencing control strategies wit delivers object oriented distributed visual programming environment which allows users rapidly design solutions their imaging problems users can consolidate both software and hardware developments within complete cad like workspace adding their own operators functions objects data structures and servers specialized hardware wit runs sun sgi and supports datacube hardware allowing you run your graphs real time for free wit demo disk call fax mail poon ubc stating your complete name address voice fax mail info and desired platform pricing wit for sparc one free upgrades days technical support academic institutions discounts available contact logical vision ltd suite gilmore way burnaby canada tel fax terry arden poon ubc vis system for visually exploring the output gridded data sets such those made weather models platforms sgi iris with vgx gtx graphics sgi crimson indigo elan graphics suggested irix ibm with graphics aix version later stardent and with truecolor display any case more ram are suggested you can get freely thanks nasa support via anonymous ftp ftp iris ssec wisc edu ftp then ftp pub vis ftp ascii ftp get readme ftp bye note you can find the package also wuarchive wustl edu the graphics graphics packages directory read section the readme file for full instructions how get and install vis contact bill hibbard whibbard vms macc wisc edu brian paul bpaul vms macc wisc edu dataexplorer ibm platforms ibm risc system ibm power visualization server simd mesh mhz working announced sgi sun contact your local ibm rep for trial package ask your rep contact david kilgore data explorer product marketing yktvmh kilcore wavefront data visualizer personal visualizer advanced visualizer platforms sgi sun ibm dec availability available all the above platforms from wavefront technologies educational programs and site licenses are available contacts mike wilson mike wti com wavefront technologies inc east montecito street santa barbara fax wavefront europe guldenspoorstraat gent belgium fax wavefront technologies japan shinjuku sumitomo bldg nishi shinjuku shunjuku tokyo japan fax plot and fast from nasa ames these packages are distributed from cosmic least for fast ask pat elson pelson nas nasa gov for distribution information general these codes are for citizens only xgraph the contrib tape its specialty display data sets ncar national center for atmospheric research one the original graphics packages runs sun sgi vax cray decstations and more contact graphics information ncar scientific computing division box boulder scdinfo ncar ucar edu cost edu unlimited users gov user users users com users multiply gov idl environment for scientific computing and visualization based array oriented language idl includes and graphics matrix manupulation signal and image processing basic statistics gridding mapping and widget based system for building gui for idl applications open look motif windows environments dec vms and ultrix ibm sgi sun microsoft windows mac version progress cost educational and quantity discounts available see also comp lang idl pvwave the idl pvwave bundle contact research systems inc street suite boulder phone fax mail info rsinc com demo available via ftp call mail for details idl sips lot people are using idl with package called sips this was developed the university colorado boulder some people working for alex goetz you might try contacting them you already have idl would willing buy few thousand dollars american expect for idl and the other should free those are the general purpose packages heard besides what terramar has sips was written for aviris imagery not sure how general purpose you would have contact goetz one his people and ask have another piece software pcw that does and walsh transformations with pseudocoloring and clustering and limited image modification you can compute image using selected components used megabyte aviris images without problems but for the best speed you need external dsp card will work without but large images take quite while times long process that freebie you want favorite idl interactive data language from research systems inc idl opinion much better and infinitely easier its programming language very strong and easy very pascal like handles the number crunching very well also personally like doing the number crunching with idl the vax mathematica igor even excel the mac not too hairy then bringing over nih image for the imaging part have yet encounter any situation which that combination couldn handle and the speed and ease use compared iraf was incredible the way mostly astronomical image processing which been doing this means image enhancement cleaning bad lines pixels and some other traditional image processing routines then for example taking graph intensity versus position along line choose with the mouse then doing curve fit that line which might like kaleidagraph for idl call research systems for wave call precision visuals and for sips call university colorado boulder from what can understand you can get packaged programs from research systems though nfotis visual contact robert haimes mit fieldview interactive program designed assist engineer investigating fluid dynamics data sets platforms sgi ibm sun terminals availability currently available all the above platforms educational programs and volume discounts are available contact intelligent light box fair lawn steve kramer kramer ilight com scian scian primarily intended visualizations data interactive environment with the ability generate animations using frame accurate video recording devices user manual line help and technical notes will help you use the program cost free source code provided via ftp platforms sgi machines and ibm with the card buffer where find ftp scri fsu edu pub scian mirror monu monash edu pub scian scry from the readme scry distributed image handling system that pro vides image transport and compression local and wide area networks image viewing workstations recording video equipment and storage disk the system can distri buted among workstations between supercomputers and works tations and between supercomputers workstations and video animation controllers the system most commonly used produce video based movie displays images resulting from visualization time dependent data complex data sets and image processing operations both the clients and servers run variety systems that provide unix like run time environments and bsd sockets the source available for anonymous ftp csam lbl gov pub scry tar contact bill johnston wejohnston lbl gov ucbvax csam lbl gov johnston david robertson dwrobertson lbl gov ucbvax csam lbl gov davidr imaging technologies group lawrence berkeley laboratory cyclotron road berkeley svlib fvs svlib windows widget set based the osf open software foundation motif widget set svlib widgets are macro widgets comprising lower level motif widgets such buttons scrollbars menus and drawing areas designed address the reusability visualization routines and each widget the library encapsulation specific visualization technique such colormap manipulation image display and contour plotting targetted run unix workstations supporting osf motif currently only color monitors are supported since svlib collection widgets developed the same spirit the osf motif user interface widget set integrates seamlessly with the motif widgets programmers using svlib widgets see the same interface and design other motif widgets fvs visualization software for computational fluid dynamics cfd simulations fvs designed accept data generated from these simulations and apply various visualization techniques present these data graphically fvs accepts three dimensional multi block data recorded ncsa hdf format iti gov pub svlib scientific visualization fvs these directories contain demo binaries for sun sgi cost for academic and for non academic institutions for each the above items you getting the source for the licence contact miss quek lee hian member technical staff information technology institute national computer board ncb building sicence park drive singapore republic singapore tel fax email leehian iti gov gvlware distribution bob interactive volume renderer for the sgi raz disk based movie player for the sgi icol motif color editor the army high performance computing research center ahpcrc has been developing set tools work with large time dependent and data sets the graphics and visualization lab gvl are using these tools along side standard packages such sgi explorer and the utah raster toolkit render volumes and create digital movies couple the more general purpose programs have been bundled into package called gvlware gvlware currently consisting bob raz and icol now available via ftp the most interesting program probably bob interactive volume renderer for the sgi raz streams raster images from disk sgi screen enabling movies larger than memory played icol color map editor that works with bob and raz source and pre built binaries for irix are included acquire gvlware anonymous ftp machine ftp arc umn edu file pub gvl tar use gvlware mkdir gvl gvl zcat gvl tar tar xvf more readme some bob features motif interface sgi rendering renders cubed data set seconds vgx alpha compositing and maximum value rendering perspective only maximum value rendering personal iris data must brick bytes regularly spaced grid animation subvolumes subsampling stereo some raz features motif interface sgi rendering loads files raw disk partition then streams screen requires empty disk partition set aside script interface available for movie sequences can stream from memory like ncsa ximage some icol features motif interface easy create interpolated color maps between key points rgb hsv and yuv color spaces multiple file formats communicates changes automatically bob and raz has been tested sgi sun dec and cray systems btw bob brick bytes icol interpolated color raz just name please send any comments gvlware ahpcrc umn edu this software collection supported the army research office contract number daalo with the university minnesota army high performance computing research center iap imaging applications platform commercial package for medical and scientific visualization does volume rendering binary surface rendering multiplanar reformating image manipulation cine sequencing intermixes geometry and text with images and provides measurement and coordinate transform abilities can provide hardcopy most medical film printers image database functionality and interconnection most medical mri etc scanners client server based and provides object oriented interface runs most high performance workstations and takes full advantage parallelism where available robust efficient and will submitted for fda approval for use medical applications cost for oem developer for educational developer and run times starting and going down based quantity the developer packages include two days training for two people toronto available from isg technologies airport road mississauga ontario canada mail rod gilchrist rod isgtec com molecular visualization stuff based list from cristy dupont com cristy which asked for systems for displaying molecular dynamics for short flex public domain package written michael pique the scripps research institute jolla flex stored compressed tar archive about perutz scripps edu pub flex displays molecular models and trajectories macmolecule for macintosh searched with archie and the most promising place sumex aim stanford edu info mac app and info mac art for demo display runs sgi machines call terry lybrand lybrand milton washington edu xtalview crystallography package that does visualize molecules and much more uses the xview toolkit call duncan mcree dem scripps edu landman hal physics wayne edu writing own visualization code right now look output specific format easy alter for the subroutine program has hooks into gks your friend has access phigs for pex and fortran bindings would happy share evolving code free charge right now can display supercells atoms easy change and time steps drawing nearest neighbor bonds between defining radii works acceptably fast mhz icsg caesar montana edu did project molecular visualization for master thesis using unix motif which generates simple point and space filling model kgngraf kgngraf part motecc look malena crs pub motecc motecc info txt information about motecc plain ascii format motecc info troff information about motecc troff format motecc form troff motecc order form troff format motecc license troff motecc license agreement troff format motecc info information about motecc postscript format motecc form motecc order form postscript format motecc license motecc license agreement postscript format ditolla itnsg cineca working molecular dynamic too friend mine and have developed program display run dynamically silicon graphics are working improve but doesn work under are using the graphi lib the silicon because they are much faster then when end post the news info about where get with ftp will free software xball written david nedde call daven maxine wpi edu xmol window system program that uses osf motif for the display and analysis molecular model data data from several common file formats can read and written current formats include alchemy chemlab gaussian molsim mopac pdb and msci xyz format which has been designed for simplicity translating and from other formats xmol also allows for conversion between several these formats xmol available ftp msc edu read pub xmol readme for further details insight from biosym technologies inc scarecrow the program has been published molecular graphics the program can analyze and display charmm discover yasp and mumod trajectories the program package contains also software for the generation probe surfaces proton affinity surfaces and molecular orbitals from extended huckel program works silicon graphics machines contact leif laaksonen leif laaksonen csc laaksone csc multi niehs nih gov pub multi multi process molecular modeling suite mindtool runs under sunview and requires fortran compiler and sun cgi libraries mindtool tool provided for the interactive graphic manipulation molecules and atoms currently atoms may input available via anonymous ftp rani chem yale edu directory pub mindtool check with archie for other sites that too far would also suggest looking least sgi applications directory contains many more packages nfotis gis geographical information systems software grass geographic resource analysis support system the army construction engineering research lab cerl popular geographic and remote sensing image processing package many may think grass geographic information system rather than image processing package although reported have significant image processing capabilities feature descriptions use grass because public domain and can obtained through the internet for free grass runs unix and written the source code can obtained through anonymous ftp from the office grass integration you then compile the source code for your machine using scripts provided with grass would recommend grass for someone who already has workstation and limited budget grass not very user friendly compared macintosh software first review overview documentation indicates that looks useful and has some pixel resampling functions not other packages plus good general purpose image enhancement routines fft kelly maurice vexcel corp boulder primary user grass this gentleman has used the grass software and developed multi spectral bands volumetric rendering full color suns and stardents was really effective interface vexcel corp currently has contract map part venus and convert the magellan radar data into contour maps you can call them email care greg vexcel com host configuration requirements you are willing run you could install grass macintosh which has significant image analysis and import capabilities for satellite data grass public domain and can run high end under unix raster based has some image processing capability and can display vector data but analysis must done the raster environment have used grass sun workstation and found easy use best course for data that are well represented raster grid cell form availability cerl office grass integration ogi maintains ftp server moon cecer army mil mail regarding this site should addressed grass ftp admin moon cecer army mil this location will the new canonical source for grass software well bug fixes contributed sources documentation and other files this ftp server also supports dynamic compression and uncompression and tar archiving files feature attraction the server john parks grass tutorial because the manual still beta test stage john requests that people only acquire they are willing review and mail him comments corrections the ogi not currently maintaining this document all correspondence about should directed grassx tang uark edu support listserv mailing lists grassu list amber cecer army mil for grass users application level questions support concerns miscellaneous questions etc send subscribe commands grassu request amber cecer army mil grassp list amber cecer army mil for grass programmers system level questions and tips tricks and techniques design and implementation grass applications send subscribe commands grassp request amber cecer army mil both lists are maintained the office grass integration subset the army corps engineers construction engineering research lab champaign the ogi providing the lists service the community while ogi and cerl employees will participate the lists can make claim content veracity messages that pass through the list you have questions problems comments send mail lists owner amber cecer army mil and human will respond microstation imager intergraph based huntsville alabama sells wide range gis software hardware microstation base graphics package that imager sits top imager basically image processing package with heavy gis remote sensing flavor feature description basic geometry manipulations flip mirror rotate generalized affine rectification affine and order models well projective model warp image vector map another image rgb ihs and ihs rgb conversion principal component analysis classification means and isodata fourier xforms forward filtering and reverse filters high pass low pass edge enhancing median generic complex histogram contrast control layer controller manages images time user can extract single bands from band image create color images combining various individual bands etc the package designed for remote sensing application can handle very large images and there all kinds other software available for gis applications host configuration requirements runs intergraph workstations unix machine similar sun though there were rumors there are always rumors that the software would ported and possibly sun environment pci company called pci inc out richmond hill ontario canada makes array software utilities for processing manipulation and use remote sensing data eight ten different industry standard formats lgsowg bsq landsat and couple others whose titles forget the software available versions for dos unix workstations among them sun and ibm and vms and quite possibly other platforms now use the vms version the pci software consists several classes groups packages utilities grouped function but all operating common pci database disk file the tape package set utility programs which read from the various remote sensing industry tape formats into write those formats out from the pci database file this the only package use know much about other packages can display data from the pci database one another several pci supported third party color displays output numeric bitmap representation image data attached printer epson type dot matrix graphics printer you might more spe cifically interested the mathematical operations package histo gram and fourier analysis equalization user specified operations multiply channel add channel and store channel and god only knows what all else there lot don have and don use these can say much about them you only buy the packages your particular application interest calls for each utility controlled from one eight parameters read from common parameter file which must vms anyway your default directory some utilities will share parameters and use the same parameter for different purpose can get bit confusing setting series operations the standard pci environment contains scripting language very similar ibm basic but which allows you automate the process setting parameters for common complicated lengthy difficult series utility executions vms can also invoke utilities independently from dcl command procedure there also optional programming library which allows you write compiled language programs which can interface with read from write the pci data structures database file parameter file the pci software designed specifically for remote sensing images but requires such level operator expertise that once you reach the level where you can handle images you can figure out ways handle few other things well for instance the tape package offers utility for reading headerless multi band what adobe photoshop the macintosh calls raw data from tape number different interleave orders this turns out ideal for manipulating the graphic arts industry format would probably haven tried handle targa and above all however you have know what you doing you can screw the nth degree and have start over worth noting that the pci database file designed contain not only raster image data but vectors for overlaying map information entered via digitizing table land use and all manner other information observe that remote sensing image tape often contains all manner information about the spectral bands latitude longitude time date etc the original satellite pass all this can into the pci database believe that workstations the built display used vax systems other than workstations pci supports only couple specific third party display systems the name gould deanza seems come mind one personal workarounds was display program which would display directly from pci database file peritek vct bus bit directcolor display subsystem pci software could overkill your case seems designed for the very high end applications users those for whom mac largely doesn suffice although you know the gap getting smaller all the time probably coincidence that pci located canada country which does lot its land resource management via remote sensing believe the canadian government uses pci software for some its work these areas spam spectral analysis manager back jpl developed something called spam spectral analysis manager which got fair amount use the time that was designed for airborne imaging spectrometer imagery byte data pixels across lines bands modified version has since been developed for aviris airborne visual and infrared imaging spectrometer which uses much larger images spam does none these things rectification classification and ihs transformations filtering contrast enhancement overlays actually does limited filtering and contrast enhancement stretching spam aimed spectral identification and clustering the original spam uses sunview display the aviris version may require vicar executive based tae and may also require frame buffer can refer you people you interested pcw requires for display map among the mac gis systems map distributed john wiley clrview clrview dimensional visualization program designed exploit the real time capabilities silicon graphics iris computers this program designed provide core set tools aid the visualization information from cad and gis sources supports the integration many common but disperate data sources such dxf tin dem lattices and arc info coverages among others clrview can obtained from explorer dgp utoronto the directory pub sgi clrview contact rodney hoinkes head design applications centre for landscape research university toronto tel email rodney dgp utoronto end resource listing nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ athens greece home esperidon internet nfotis theseas ntua halandri uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	wanted references parallel algorithms element analysis radiosity distributed processing looking for references parallel algorithms octrees adaptive subdivision adaptive meshing finite element meshing analysis radiosity any help will greatly appreciated mail replies dave small dts cis ufl edu
comp.graphics	need help buffering lines areas together asking for help sticky problem involving unreasonably low apparent precision buffering that encountered different pex implementations can find any discussion this problem any resources can lay hands the comp windows pex faq gaskins pexlib programming manual vendors documentation posting this article itself comp graphics and virtually the same article with test program demonstrating the problem comp windows pex the problem hard describe without pictures hence this article longish you can run pexlib programs and are interested encourage you build and run the test program comp windows pex see the effect yourself and play with approach dealing with depends the utility code from the above gaskins book instructions for fetching via anonymous ftp are given the problem solved eliminate minimize stitching artifacts resulting from the use buffering with polylines that are coplanar with filled areas the interpolated values along line will differ slightly due roundoff error from the interpolated values across area even when the endpoints the line are coincident with vertices the area because this tossup whether the buffer will allow the line pixels the area pixels displayed visually the result tends dashed line effect even though the line supposed solid using the pexlib api approach solution use two slightly different pex view mapping transforms two view table entries one for the areas and one for the lines the pex structures immediate mode output must organized that one view table index always effect for areas and the other always effect for lines the result slight shift npc coordinates for the lines attempt bias the tossup situations favor the lines this shift effected moving the front and back clipping planes used the pexlib view table entry for lines just hair backwards smaller vrc coordinates compared their positions the view table entry used for areas this means that when point transformed npc its value will slightly bigger comes from line than comes from area thus accomplishing the desired bias would expect the roundoff errors which cause the problem amount few units most out the entire dynamic range the buffer typically from not bit buffers therefore seems that tiny fraction the range vrc between the front and back clip planes ought suffice reliably fix the stitching but fact experience shows that the shift has much the range empirically worst when the npc component the slope the surface high when appears more less edge the viewer only bits the buffer have any dependable meaning this amount great that one problem replaced another sometimes the polylines show through areas which they are supposed lie behind observed the problem both hewlett packard and digital workstation pex servers approximately the same degree the test program demonstrates the problem mit pexlib implementation this version known compile and run system with pex open questions why does this happen configuring the pex view table wrongly there systematic difference interpolation for lines opposed areas pixel centers versus corners which could corrected for are pex implementors wantonly discarding precision their interpolators something else what about can fix use the view table allow better precision buffered hlhsr there another approach can take remove the stitching artifacts just out luck any help would immensely appreciated dave gorgen internet gorgen ann arbor applicon slb com applicon inc gorgen aaaca sinet slb com ann arbor michigan usa uucp uunet sharkey applga gorgen
comp.graphics	raytriacing and animation now have couple raytracing questions just you know using povray both dos and unix and generating targa files varying size can view these wonderful pictures screen what the best way get them paper would possible take kinko and have them make actual picture paper from was thinking about making small animation bit with different raytraced frames this bad idea any tricks how would get sequence targa files made into animation that could put videotape there cheap way
comp.graphics	need gif iff file format could somebody please email some info either what gif iff file formats are where can get such info thanx rtaraz wpi wpi edu
comp.graphics	archiving gif what the best way archive gif zip them and they only shrink have most compression programs except stacker which heard was good for gif thanx brando please mail don get down this far the news usually
comp.graphics	povray tga rle article ltqp innpa pageboy utexas edu jhpark utexas edu jihun park writes hello have some problem converting tga file generated povray rle file when convert not get any warning message but use xloadimage getx something wrong edited know that need install ppmtorle and tgatoppm but not spend time install them even not want generate rgb from povray and then convert them rle possible rgb rle works but will mess directory with many files and needs more steps finally convert rle file say cat rawtorle rleflip does any body out there have same experience problems well for starters why use rle files you might have specific program that needs them but tend convert straight jpeg format thus meg bit targa file becomes less bit jpeg the latest versions and xloadimage both handle jpeg files and the best way convert jpeg with the djpeg suit even quality you can see the difference the jpeg way smaller than anything else even bit gif later ish craig didn nobody saw you can prove anything craig humphrey stargate actrix gen ccc ccc chumphre comp vuw
comp.graphics	kubota kenai denali specs okay got enough replies about the kubota kenai denali systems that will post summary their capabilities haven actually used one seen one take the specs with grain salt like see independent review one against say sgi indigo extreme something basically the kenai workstations are dec alpha axp based workstations that run osf dec and will likely run windows the future they are binary compatible with digital osf alpha axp implementation denali their graphics subsystem which upgradable the field simply adding transformation engines the two main kenai machines are the imaging and graphics workstation and the imaging and graphics workstation cpu dec alpha axp mhz dec alpha axp mhz chip cache onboard cache word size bit bit memory initial memory future specmark specint specfp graphics transform modules frame buffer modules frame buffer bit bit double buffered double buffered buffer bit bit alpha stencil bit bit stereo support yes yes other both machines will double buffer stereo output per window both have auxiliary video output that ntsc and pal storage internal fixed internal removable max capacity both have turbochannel sec scsi ethernet and fddi application programming interfaces both have libraries for xlib motif mit pexlib dec pexlib dec phigs and okay now the real stuff the kenai stations work with graphics architecture known denali the denali comes three models the and they use decchip superscalar risc processor mhz their capabilities are follows vectors vectors vectors vectors triangles triangles pixel flat shaded connected pixel gouraud shaded connected pixel pixel wide anti aliased connected pixel gouraud shaded buffered strip pixel texture mapped persp point sampled image processing cine loop bit cine loop bit cine loop bit contrast stretching bilinear zoom trilinear interp mvoxels mvoxels lookup table bit trilinear interpolation bit voxels configurations frame buffer modules transform engine mod you can see these are pretty powerful workstations and the best part the pricing would recommend that you call kubota for more information their number sure they send you information you may want some prices low end kenai series tem and fbm dollars kenai series tem and fbm dollars high end kenai series tem and fbm dollars kenai series tem and fbm dollars someone could post relative comparision with indigo extreme something would appreciate hope this helps someone out there brian not affiliated with kubota any way hell thought they made tractors something
comp.graphics	autocad graphics converter could anybody tell exists any program convert autocad graphics another format gif tiff bmp pcx and where get thanks advance cuesta cuesta tidsa madrid spain
comp.graphics	looking for code brake image into sub bands all working project which need brake image into sub bands and then work with them since have never done anything like this don even understand the concept sub bands was wondering there some software out there that would allow this any hints thanks scott violet xepo csd csd uwm edu
comp.graphics	virtual reality for the cheap peter gort trl peter campbell writes ridout bink plk mil brian ridout writes article apr mfltd sts mfltd steve sherwood writes has anyone got multiverse work extn sts mfltd uunet mfocus sts tried compiling several sparcstations with gcc after fixing few bugs missing constant definitions plus couple other things got compile link but after starting client server just get black window sometimes the client core dumps sometimes the server sometimes get broken pipe sometimes just sits there doing nothing although occassionally get the cursor become cross hair dog fight but that sent word the author plus what did fix last week but reply yet peter campbell campbell trl discovered bug the libraries parser parser loadcolour function where was generating segmentation fault appears the colourlist geting corrupted somehow had return random colours instead and everything worked great except for few colour problems know its the only thing wrong the colour table somehow gets couple nulls placed when the name the colours are compared crashes haven found the problem yet maybe someone else can adrian turner university college northern victoria turner ironbark ucnv edu
comp.graphics	looking for graig toontown noticed you post comp graphics and know person with your name was wondering you used live paxton mass have friend that would like say sorry for the inconvience this isn who think
comp.graphics	gif targa article apr fuw edu muchor fuw edu krzysztof muchorowski writes hello subject says all need gif targa converter that dta could make fli them krzysztof dta will make fli from gifs well targas you don need converter also get the latest version dta from wuarchive wustl edu pub msdos uploads
comp.graphics	acm siggraph registration problem zyda nps navy mil michael zyda notes word warning for those you registering for siggraph just received registration form back the mail with the envelope marked return sender moved left address closed box the address used register for siggraph the one printed the registration form acm siggraph box chicago printed the envelope best printing honest but evidently siggraph has skipped town moved ended faxing registration hope that number real michael zyda had the same problem and called the people who handle the box the problem happened some time ago and was caught almost instantly all registrations going that address are now fixed see what trouble you get into when you don procrastinate mike and siggraph has not skipped town preparing the best siggraph conference yet steve cunningham
comp.graphics	hpgl viewer and utilities would like know there any software not who could produce output hpgl file and same kind software who could produce hardcopy postscript and lasetjet thank you gaetan lord voice analyste fax ecole polytechnique montreal box station montreal quebec canada there future time travel
comp.graphics	why does illustrator autotrace poorly had pretty good success autotracing line art with adobe streamline the key controlling excessive points etc take some time and some test conversions using various tolerance settings jim powlesland internet powlesla acs ucalgary academic computing services voice university calgary message calgary alberta canada fax
comp.graphics	cross sobel roberts filters article apr waikato pdenize waikato writes saw imaging program some time ago amiga that had cross sobel and roberts filters for edge detection can anybody direct these algorithms never heard cross filters but roberts prewitt and sobel filters are standard spatial masks for edge detection highpass filtering does good job detecting edges too good reference for all sorts general digital image processing the book digital image processing rafael gonzalez and richard woods addison wesley publishing isbn used this source the above filters and many other things grad project not too dificult the worst part loading the images from tiff gif iff ilbm whatever wayne rigby rigby unr edu
comp.graphics	source code help packages please greetings this general call for information regarding image processing looking for any material related the field and also trying get hands some easy use packages related the field particular source code for general use packages already have several texts the subject but would appreciate more input from people more knowledgable the field than myself not mathematically literate don have degree mathematics any material that suggested would prefer that was not mathematically intensive the best book have found the subject the moment practical digital image processing rhys lewis isbn published ellis horwood likewise trying get fair sample programs that demonstrate image processing techniques far have and khoros for unix dcview for the ibm and various related smatterings code help describe topics like contrasting dithering image enhancement via convolution etc anyone could kindly supply with some public domain software pertinent this area better still they could tell where most likely find the aarnet internet can would prefer source code turbo pascal that includes some image processing code algorithms that can readily alter manipulate for the purposes demonstration would most helpful all the above information will contribute post graduate studies and will liberally used paper and seminar the subject thanks advance vance ashlin diploma advanced computing thinking dangerous subversive mindnumbing and leads you astray ashlin ironbark ucnv edu redgum ucnv edu
comp.graphics	quicktime performance was rumours about article apr waikato ldo waikato lawrence oliveiro waikato university writes path dime ymir umass edu nic umass edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl waikato ldo from ldo waikato lawrence oliveiro waikato university newsgroups comp multimedia comp graphics date apr gmt references mar aragorn unibe apr rchland ibm com organization university waikato hamilton new zealand lines xref dime comp multimedia comp graphics with all the discussion about observed playback speeds with quicktime the effects scaling and thought some more tests first all felt that original speed test was perhaps less than realistic the movie had been using only had frames was version the very first movie created with the compact video compressor decided something little longer would give closer real world results for better for worse pulled out copy space odyssey that had recorded off while back about fifteen minutes into the movie there sequence where the earth shuttle approaching the space station specifically digitized portion about seconds duration zooming the rotating space station figured this would give reasonable amount movement between frames increase the differences between frames digitized only frames per second give total frames captured the raw footage resolution pixels with the spigot card centris quarter size resolution from pal source then imported into premiere and put through the compact video compressor keeping the fps frame rate created two versions the movie one scaled resolution the other resolution used the default quality setting premiere and specified key frame every ten frames then ran the movie through the same raw speed test program used for the results been reporting earlier result playback rate over frames per second that right was getting much higher result than with that first short test movie just for fun copied the movie external hard disk quantum and ran from there this time the playback rate was only about frames per second obviously the internal hard disk also quantum significant contributor the speed playback modified speed test program allow the specification optional scaling factors and tried playing back the movie scaled size this time the playback speed was over fps clearly the poster who observed poor performance scaled playback was seeing quicktime action not try tests with quicktime but don think entirely compatible with centris and system unscaled the playback rate for the movie was over fps the other thing tried was saving versions the movie with preferred playback rates greater than and seeing how well they played from within movieplayer with quicktime normal synchronized playback preferred rate fps didn work too well the playback was very jerky compare this with the raw speed test which achieved fps with ease can believe that quicktime synchronization code would add this much overhead think the slowdown was coming from the mac system task switching preferred rate fps seemed work fine couldn see any evidence stutter fps think could see slight stutter but with four key frames every second was hard tell guess could try recreating the movies with longer interval between the key frames make the stutter more noticeable course this will also improve the compression slightly which should speed the playback performance even more lawrence oliveiro fone computer services dept fax university waikato electric mail ldo waikato hamilton new zealand gmt afraid missed the start this thread but there are three factors that can significantly affect quicktime playback speed that you may want take into account playback bit depth things are fastest when you play movie back the bit depth was compressed for this usually bit but other depths are course possible type scaling optimized for double size scaling other scaling factors hit peformance much harder playback window position movieplayer limits your window placement choices advantagous pixel boundaries default not sure about premiere any combination those can radically alter playback performance image size course another biggie giving the movie player lots ram can also make real difference forgive these were mentioned earlier the thread peter lee peter lee software conductor specular international inc lee umass edu beauty bits deep plus eight bits alpha channel
comp.graphics	help need bits viewer article seti inria deniaud cartoon inria gilles deniaud writes looking for program which able display bits images are using sun sparc equipped with parallax graphics board running xli xloadimage imagemagick export lcs mit edu contrib graeme gill
comp.graphics	povray tga rle article ltqp innpa pageboy utexas edu jhpark utexas edu jihun park writes hello have some problem converting tga file generated povray rle file when convert not get any warning message but use xloadimage getx something wrong error messages are targatorle rle data tga xloadimage rle rle bit rle image with map will dither bits with gamma dithering image done building ximage done xloadimage error badvalue integer parameter out range for operation xloadimage error badwindow invalid window parameter this happens when your server has run out memory you need more memory you need quit any neccessary running clients graeme gill
comp.graphics	povray tga rle rkkb gec james comp vuw craig humphrey comp vuw craig andrew humphrey writes article ltqp innpa pageboy utexas edu jhpark utexas edu jihun park writes hello have some problem converting tga file generated povray rle file when convert not get any warning message but use xloadimage getx something wrong edited know that need install ppmtorle and tgatoppm but not spend time install them even not want generate rgb from povray and then convert them rle possible rgb rle works but will mess directory with many files and needs more steps finally convert rle file say cat rawtorle rleflip does any body out there have same experience problems well for starters why use rle files exactly didn want mess with tga rle wrote the following script all you need the very standard set pbm utilities this script pov jpg converter just run like this pov jpg fred pov you will need modify the path the script reflect where you put povray and its include files you have problem with disk space you can use named pipes instead temporary files hope you find useful bin then echo usage width height sourcefile pov other options exit width height datafile shift basedatafile echo datafile sed pov thedatafile basename datafile basedatafile basename datafile pov dirdatafile dirname datafile dirdatafile afs rnd sas com sherman pov povsrc build povray afs rnd sas com sherman pov povscn include tmp data width height thedatafile echo rawtopgm width height tmp data grn tmp green rawtopgm width height tmp data red tmp red rawtopgm width height tmp data blu tmp blue rgb toppm tmp red tmp green tmp blue cjpeg basedatafile jpg tmp red tmp green tmp blue tmp data grn tmp data red tmp data blu echo wrote output basedatafile jpg chris sherman sherman unx sas com
comp.graphics	adobe photoshop mailing list done bit looking and havn been able come with mailing list newsgroup for users adobe photoshop assuming just not missed ahead and see there enough interest start mailing list and alt newsgroup drop note you might interested subscribing thanks bob wier not the grateful dead insert usual disclaimers here bob wier east texas state commerce texas historic image processing project wier merlin etsu edu watch for address change
comp.graphics	morphing article news duke edu seth north acpub duke edu seth wandersman writes keywords looking for some morphing programs for dec looked for program called dmorph using archie but could not find found progrmam call morpho but only did grayscale images does anyone know where should look try searching for dmorf think located wuarchive wustl edu mirror directory used before was pretty good pete wilmshurst email wilmshurst reg triumf
comp.graphics	where did all the rych festival hawkes noticed that you only save model with all your mapping planes positioned carefully file that when you reload after restarting they are given default position and orientation but you save prj file their positions orientation are preserved does anyone know why this information not stored the file nothing this because the prj project format saves all your settings right down the last render file name like able read the texture rule information does anyone have the format for the prj file sorry don have anything that the cel format ell deluxe stupid line noise
comp.graphics	parametric variational design here now some initial references best regards walter inproceedings keirouz author walid keirouz and jahir pabon and robert young title integrating parametric geometry features and variational modeling for conceptual design booktitle international conference design theory and methodology year editor rinderle pages organization american society mechanical engineers asme optpublisher optaddress optmonth note proceedings inproceedings yamaguchi kimura author yasushi yamaguchi and fumihiko kimura title constraint modeling system for variational geometry booktitle geometric modeling for product engineering year editor michael wozny and turner and preiss pages organization ifip publisher elsevier science publishers north holland amsterdam the netherlands optaddress optmonth note selected and expanded papers form the ifip nsf working conference geometric modeling rensselaerville september inproceedings chung author jack chung and joseph klahs and robert cook and thijs sluiter title implementation issues variational geometry and constraint management booktitle third international conference cad cam robotics and factories the future cars and fof year opteditor optpages optorganization optpublisher address detroit michigan usa month august note proceedings probably springer verlag berlin heidelberg article kimura author fumihiko kimura and hiromasa suzuki and toshio sata title variational product design constraint propagation and satisfaction product modelling journal annals the cirp year volume number pages optmonth note probably international institution for production engineering research article kimura author kimura and suzuki and ando and sato and kinosada title variational geometry based logical constraints and its applications product modelling journal annals the cirp year volume number pages inproceedings chung schussel author jack chung and martin schussel title comparison variational and parametric design booktitle autofact year opteditor pages optorganization optpublisher address detroit michigan usa month october november note conference proceedings article pabon author jahir pabon and robert young and walid keirouz title integrating parametric geometry features and variational modeling for conceptual design journal international journal systems automation research and applications sara year volume optnumber pages optmonth optnote article kondo author koichi kondo title pigmod parametric and interactive geometric modeller for mechanical design journal cad computer aided design year volume number pages month december note butterworth heinemann ltd inproceedings zalik author borut alik and nikola guid and aleksander vesel title parametric design using constraint description graph booktitle cad neue konzepte zur realisierung anwendungsorientierter cad systeme year editor frank lothar krause and detlev ruland and helmut jansen pages optorganization publisher informatik aktuell springer verlag berlin heidelberg optaddress month mai note fachtagung berlin inproceedings murtagh shimura author niall murtagh and masamichi shimura title parametric engineering design using constraint based reasoning booktitle aaai eighth national conference artificial intelligence year opteditor pages organization american association for artificial intelligence publisher proceedings volume one aaai press menlo park address boston month july august optnote
comp.graphics	need gif iff file format article rkjm bigboote wpi edu rtaraz bigwpi wpi edu ramin taraz writes could somebody please email some info either what gif iff file formats are where can get such info well gif stands for graphics interchange format and was put forth compuserve back was create format that could read and displayed any system gif limited bit color but has built compression scheme lzw iff not really graphics format but rather standard way package images sounds animations text whatever into one file iff was created electronic arts believe could wrong for the amiga was quickly adopted pretty much the standard file format for the amiga the most common image format for the iff package ilbm interleaved bitmap but many others exist this format supports bit color images information both these and many more are available via anonymous ftp zamenhof rice edu the directory pub graphics formats taken from the faq for this news group wayne rigby rigby unr edu
comp.graphics	pov where sorry this faq but where can get bit version pov ray any help would greatly appreciated need the version since turbo pascal won let run bit program from within program any info this would also great help thanks byron bkidd esk compserv utas edu kidd cam compserv utas edu byron kidd mail computing services
comp.graphics	geosphere image article alt graphics newsgroups alt graphics path news edu moliere rmalayte from rmalayte moliere helios edu ryan malayter subject geosphere images via ftp message apr news edu sender news news edu usenet news system organization university notre dame notre dame date mon apr gmt does anyone know digitized version the geosphere image available via ftp for those you who don know composite photograph the entire earth with cloudcover removed just think really cool was created with government funds and sattelites research project would assume the public domain thanks for any info ryan college men get smashed and break something college women get smashed and get broken robin wilson president ryan malayter chico state university stanford hall notre dame dept physics comp sci malayter edu
comp.graphics	help colour display restriction limitation netters doing project which about image analysis firstly have find out any restrictions limitations the colour display various kind workstations they are decstation amiga apollo secondly read from some graphic texts that image displayed bites please point out got wrong but the images which will deal with are displayed bites the software they are using currently will there any problems display them under windows the future because are thinking implement the gui windows for our project there any person here can help solve the problem query above give some advice suggestion where can find them out please send mail there are any thanks advance yours christine chan address golum riv csu edu
comp.graphics	tiff anything article apr yang earlham edu joshuaf yang earlham edu writes are there any tiff anything programs out there for the ibm our scanner works into tiff and can view cshow but all other programs read errors are there any basic tiff jpeg gif pcx bmp etc try winjpeg oak oakland edu pub msdos windows winjp zip has more tiff support than graphics workshop also converts all the above formats ken
comp.graphics	widget wish list what like see the more generic dimensional widget set realize that there wouldn whole shitload people who want more than but why stop all need widget with viewports showing different slices stuff alter pat pat ritcsh csh rit edu paf ritvax rit edu paflecke spectrum xerox com all objects are macroscopic invisible non physical otherwise non heisenbergish fuck the cat
comp.graphics	rgb hls hsv conversion routines wanted looking for rgb cube hls double hexcone hsv cylinder conversion routines have rgb hsv but miss the hls rgb hsv please mail directly not get this newsgroup site any and all help wil greatly appreciated gert gert bultman bultman dgw rws phone snail rijkswaterstaat dienst getijdewateren afd aoct mail postbus the hague the netherlands please mark all personal mail persoonlijk
comp.graphics	where did all the texture rules eric vitiello tfd coplex com eric vitiello writes rych festival hawkes noticed that you only save model with all your mapping planes positioned carefully file that when you reload after restarting they are given default position and orientation but you save prj file their positions orientation are preserved does anyone know why this information not stored the file nothing this because the prj project format saves all your settings right down the last render file name like able read the texture rule information does anyone have the format for the prj file sorry don have anything that the cel format well dived feet first and reverse engineered the prj file much needed extracted the mapping icon information which when dawned that studio useless for needs need mapping icon per applied texture want use special purpose graphics computer for rendering the models and requires texture rule plane specified space position orientation the mapping rule since only one mapping icon used apply textures all objects faces renders pun intended totally unsuitable for needs anyone got contact for alias upfront any other good modeller for must able specify texture rules one per texture and this must saved file which can read haven found any info alias the copy the faq that have rych
comp.graphics	convert plot ascii file looking for software that reads plot pcx other format and converts into coordinate
comp.graphics	best ftp viewer please could someone please tell the best ftp able viewer available for msdos running mhz with svga monitor need look gifs mainly and would advantageous ran under windows thanks
comp.graphics	rgb hvs and back have little question need convert rgb coded red green blue colors into hvs coded hue value saturnation colors does anyone know which formulas use thanks hartog remcoha solist htsa aha
comp.graphics	wanted bit viewer article seti inria deniaud cartoon inria gilles deniaud writes thanks the people who helped with the problem displaying bit images all the viewers like xli xloadimage and display are converting the bit images bit before display them the screen what really want viewer with make use the bit frame screen buffer our case the parallax one try imagemagick cannot test but one told does bit anyway are you sure your xserver supports bit truecolor visuals check with xdpyinfo brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.graphics	comp graphics research have not seen articles comp graphics research for long time does work anymore have seen many conference related postings comp graphics and hard believe that people have not tried post them research somebody has not got his article comp graphics research then write post here juhana kouhia
comp.graphics	polaroid palette system does anyone have any information the polaroid palette system appears gadget for transfering graphics images film does anyone have any detail about like the maximum supported resolution types video input what did polaroid market them fletch all irregularities will handled the forces controlling each dimension trans uranic heavy elements may not used where there life medium atomic weights are available gold lead copper jet diamond radium sapphire silver and steel sapphire and steel have been assigned
comp.graphics	tiff anything there program called graphic workshop you can ftp from wuarchive the file the msdos graphics directory and called grfwk zip this program should everthing you need tmc tmc spartan brocku could you more specific need that file too but couldn find amongst all the directories wuarchive page nixsp ccsvax sfasu edu
comp.graphics	monthly lightwave mailing list faq lightwave mail list what lightwave lightwave part suite programs that come bundled with device called the toaster from newtek inc that operates amiga platform the lightwave software lightwave lightwave and lightwave modeler allows and artist create three dimensional photo realistic images for variety purposes why are doing this this mailing list for those interested the lightwave software how operates and ideas how obtain the best quality images available them the list for those who own the toaster and lightwave well those just interested what can done with the package hope share information tips procedures and bond group what are the rules since lightwave modeler are just part the newtek video toaster software sure will discuss few items related the operation the toaster however will strive keep the subject revolving specifically around the software related tools and products you not have own toaster join this list how join become member the lightwave mailing list you must send mail message the address lightwave request bobsbox rent com the body the message enter subscribe lightwave your name your site domain just ask signed and will sign you the list this point time the process manual but hope get automated script based system place soon there shouldn too much delay joining expect welcome message within days after you send your request then expect the mail start flowing how post the list contributing the list simple just mail your articles the following address lightwave bobsbox rent com your article will processed the system and distributed all others joined the list your articles will also sent you you know that your article has made the list however those addresses that are either good longer active will bounce back you you post article and another members address longer valid your original article will returned you this doesn mean hasn been posted the list fact just the opposite true means that your article was posted and that couldn sent one more the members the list due bad address note hope have fix for this behavior soon how quit the list simply mail request removed from the list the same address you used sign lightwave request bobsbox rent com the body the message enter unsubscribe lightwave your name your site domain will remove your name from the list members please you join the list and your account going closed you will not able receive mail for while send request removed from the list you are just going lose access for short while still send request for suspension your membership and will suspend forwarding the articles you what about old articles currently archiving all the articles posted the list the originating site bobsbox however can not continue this due lack disk space what need volunteer that will maintain compendium articles sent the list they can compress and store them archives their system they can then periodically post index the contents the compendium and any other information that relates there are volunteers then maybe someone can donate large scsi hard drive for archival purposes grin have setup mail based file server that anyone interested the list can obtain information well the entire archive past articles the membership listing and other information pertaining the lightwave mailing list for information this service please send mail message fileserver bobsbox rent com the first command the server must help user name passwd use help request current copy the helpfile use user name passwd connect the service use get short listing all available commands now what well sit back and enjoy the pouring out information you have something offer please feel free contribute that information the list every little bit helps questions are welcomed makes some feel important when can answer them grin you have any questions comments regarding the list please contact the address lightwave admin bobsbox rent com cheers bob lindabury
comp.graphics	your one stop graphics shop rent com better than sharp stick the eye andy meyer are pleased announce that have just upgraded our system new hayes ultra bis bis modem that will allow connections from bps bps featuring graphics specific system for those you interested such things graphics image processing animation clip art and the latest public domain graphics programs graphics specific mailing lists such imagine dctv and lightwave mailing lists aliased easy read forums which you can join and read many more come free usenet access and free netmail sites all over the world the ability contact software hardware developers right their mainframes just sending them netmail from the graphics bbs not mention your kids college your parents from college with our quick connections and reliable links you can have your mail sent around the world matter minutes unique conference bulletin section the abilty join and keep track only the conferences that you enjoy the ability read files from your own personal file area for use messages also with proper access you can create your own conference and moderate newsfeeds from usenet that include topics such graphics mac amiga ibm science erotica ham radio star trek scuba diving programmers forums game designers forums and cyberspace forums the most sophisticated but easy learn and use mail system ever created for you can easily read your mail delete move your personal directory for storage and reply you can attach files your mail and send another member smart sendmail feature ensures accurate addressing netmail ability send mail and messages arpanet usenet internet bitnet and any the networks that interface with them around the world such fidonet peoplenet and the uucp network university and research facility systems file library containing downloads for most popular computers featuring easy learn and use system the library features master directory listing newscan and search capabilities well complete archived file listings the file library supports most popular transfer protocols such modem well advance protocols such link and modem the file library also doubles file server for users from other sites all around the world complete control over your environment you select whether you want hot key control menus more prompting etc you can define your cancel key and choose your terminal emulation you can also edit your personal login script what you want online games global war jet combat simulator etc new games added online manual and extensive help facilities complete tracking online usage time megabytes storage the graphics bbs currently runs ibm mhz with meg ram meg ide drive call the graphics bbs baud hours day everyday system administator bob lindabury bobl graphics rent com
comp.graphics	dxf pcx gif tif tga murashiea mail beckman com murashiea mail beckman com murashie writes does anyone know program for the that will take autocad dxf format files and convert them raster format like pcx gif etc thanks advance also interested such program but most all like know wich program able convert gif pcx dxf when have this program can scan pictures and frase something like that them this will beyond the limit roderick
comp.graphics	ntsc data rgb for video capture does anyone know how decode the color information ntsc signal need convert this data rgb for video capture utility writing for use with ibm motion video adapter card need know the how the and signals work the color process thanks advance for any information algorythms etc later hammonck net
comp.graphics	best ftp viewer please situnaya ibm bham wrote could someone please tell the best ftp able viewer available for msdos running mhz with svga monitor need look gifs mainly and would advantageous ran under windows thanks ftp wuarchive wustl edu change into mirrors msdos graphics get grfwk zip this the dos version graphic workshop there windows version which you could probably find the mirrors msdos windows directory but don know what the file name tmc tmc spartan brocku
comp.graphics	turning photographic images into thermal print and negatives jennifer lynn urso andrew cmu edu wrote well have lots experience with scanning images and altering them for changing them back into negatives that really possible stuff deleted jennifer urso the bitter woman utter blahness but cheerful undertones use aldus photostyler the and can turn colour black and white image into negative turn negative into colour black and white image don know how does but works well test scanned negative and used aldus create positive looked better than the print that the film developers gave tmc tmc spartan brocku
comp.graphics	interesting conversion problem have very large feet file macintosh canvas something which need import into autocad the least disk space intensive way possible eps big problem since took meg encode one page the document the file entirely lines and words have access networked macs and ftp can anyone suggest how this might accomplished email replies you would don read this group much thanks advance daniel alt case western reserve university cleveland help don have ulcers carrier can see you don pretend don like spreading rumors but what else can you with them there don practice what preach because not the kind person preach
comp.graphics	human head modeling software article wbp taurus nps navy mil adaptive nps navy mil zyda res acct writes there interested facial animation and want implement some program about this area but don have any information for the face looking for some images face try getting the cyberware demo via ftp which contains images the face what the copyright status this data are there restrictions regarding the uses they can put kaveh kaveh kardan kardank ere umontreal
comp.graphics	looking for hot mac anim software interested finding animation programs for the mac especially interested any programs that don exist port and are good that they would make buy mac any such exist thanks advance
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance silly bqs skates gsfc nasa gov xrcjd mudpuppy gsfc nasa gov charles divine writes article geraldo utexas edu mark cartwright markc emx utexas edu writes course the question has not yet been discovered but the question was later revealed what the base system course you read the last couple books the series closely well and least there are least two points which the real question implied conversations proceed much like zaphod what the ultimate question wonder arthur not paying much attention zaphod but needing random seed for the infinite improbability drive think number any number actually may marvin who uses this phrase few times well and everytime arranged such that think number any number could answer someone question about the question kind like very mystifying not even pick number tell number just think one kevin martin sigma rahul net use the flipper
comp.graphics	geosphere image article apr news edu rmalayte grumpy helios edu ryan malayter writes does anyone know digitized version the geosphere image available via ftp for those you who don know composite photograph the entire earth with cloudcover removed just think really cool was created with government funds and sattelites research project would assume the public domain thanks for any info ryan have copy the earth from space wall that purchased from space shots inc printed the poster the image was created tom van sant and the geosphere project the image copyrighted doubt that you find legally the public domain part the proceeds from the sale the image the geosphere project environmental education thing and the cost nominal crack and buy one also don think always safe assume that just because the government funded project any products will provided for free many government agencies nasa noaa and some private groups national geographic provided assistance the geosphere project this collaboration seems mostly oriented educating the public rather than pure research thomas trusk dept cellular biology anatomy email ttrusk its mcw edu medical college wisconsin milwaukee disclaimer have affiliation with any the above mentioned groups this just opinion not flame advertisement where who turned off the lights what that funny noise feel strange aaauuugggghhhhh
comp.graphics	donwloaded bin file from unix machine now what niko iastate edu nikolaus schuessler writes article matess gsusgi gsu edu matess gsusgi gsu edu eliza strickler writes just donwloaded bin file from unix machine which supposed converted mac format does anyone know what need this file get into any dos mac unix readable format someone mentioned fetch the unix machine this correct could someone explain the bin format little this almost certainly macbinary file which encoded version mac file the resource fork and data fork get preserved you need program that converts this regular file this macbinary file you may have downloaded text mode and probably corrupt you did you using ftp transfer any point make sure you type binary first you can open the file with text editor and find this file must converted with bin the top binhex file and can decoded with binhex among other programs opened the file with text editor and looks like vnetwork storyboardpictpict bim have already tried binhex which does not seem work any other ideas niko schuessler project vincent systems manager email niko iastate edu iowa state university computation center voice ames snail durham elizabeth strickler matess gsusgi gsu edu
comp.graphics	hpgl viewer and utilities article apr music mus polymtl gaetan lord ecole polytechnique montreal music mus polymtl writes would like know there any software not who could produce output hpgl file and same kind software who could produce hardcopy postscript and lasetjet try export lcs mit edu think that there viewer there called xviewgl check the readme contrib bill woodward wpwood austin ibm com try this first aix software support billw aixwiz austin ibm com graphics group the terror that flaps the night
comp.graphics	gif targa hello subject says all need gif targa converter that dta could make fli them krzysztof
comp.graphics	viewing jpeg files apr ucbeh san edu lwilson ucbeh san edu writes can view jpeg files without special hardware lucy wilson access services librarian college engineering university cincinnati yup most jpeg viewers seem require specific video drivers since they support only specific video cards some have the standard ibm bios video support for the vga colour mode but they leave out the other cards such the hercules monochrome card which the way can give very good picture quality your dithering works right can remember the name jpeg viewer since usually convert jpeg gif before viewing them but some require vesa driver for the video cards you don need any special hardware view jpeg except perhaps for vga card and maybe processor most people these days program for computers and neglect the rest the processors have clone nec processor and hercules card have had write some programs that they will view gif and animations for the vga and other colour graphics boards monochrome hercules card use floyd steinberg dithers and have found that one does something neat with the colour palette the resulting dithered image gives much greater detail than normally would when viewed other monochrome systems compushow has dithering but does the standard thing with the image palette before dithering way gives brighter more detailed image anyway enough rambling the wrong direction the final point far know you don need extra hardware view jpeg other than the vga and perhaps better have day gerry
comp.graphics	corel draw harvard draw wife wants publish newsletter she artist she intends use comercial clipart and customise bit drawing circle box around etc have mspublisher for manipulating text but not suitable for doing much with graphics she needs more specialised tool right now she looking corel draw and harvard draw there seem more books the stores corel than harvard she inclined with corel the basis popularity can anyone give informed opinion which package would more suitable there even better alternative available this faq please withhold the flames and just send the location the faq document thanks three use clip art from harvard draw whatever for commercial purposes have dpi laser jet printer what would good scanner for reading paper clipart how about someone starting newsgroup desktop publishing one doesn exist
comp.graphics	real time visualization hello interested hear from people working the field visual simulation driving simulation flight simulation etc would very pleased see what going the field research and industrial development for those you interested well there workshop preferedly held german situated wuppertal november specially related the above topic the title sichtsysteme visualisierung der simulationstechnik complete details are available please contact moeller rmoe welfag elektro uni wuppertal
comp.graphics	geosphere image rmalayte grumpy helios edu ryan malayter writes article alt graphics newsgroups alt graphics path news edu moliere rmalayte from rmalayte moliere helios edu ryan malayter subject geosphere images via ftp message apr news edu sender news news edu usenet news system organization university notre dame notre dame date mon apr gmt does anyone know digitized version the geosphere image available via ftp for those you who don know composite photograph the entire earth with cloudcover removed just think really cool was created with government funds and sattelites research project would assume the public domain this image copyrighted early another news group was being used texture map planet orbiting simulation that program was being freely distributed but the texture map picture for the earth had pulled because copyright infringement issues michael prevost sterling software moffett field prevost eos arc nasa gov
comp.graphics	kubota kenai denali specs article rkntjinnd names nerdc ufl edu lioness maple circa ufl edu writes okay got enough replies about the kubota kenai denali systems that will post summary their capabilities graphics transform modules frame buffer modules frame buffer bit bit double buffered double buffered buffer bit bit alpha stencil bit bit does this mean they can either alpha stenciling but not both simultaneously stereo support yes yes other both machines will double buffer stereo output per window both have auxiliary video output that ntsc and pal same question again does this mean they can either double buffering stereo but not both simultaneously paul pmartz dsd com evans sutherland
comp.graphics	help need bits viewer article apr nessie mcc lilley cgu mcc chris lilley writes article seti inria deniaud cartoon inria gilles deniaud writes looking for program which able display bits images are using sun sparc equipped with parallax graphics board running utah raster toolkit using getx convert your sun raster files presumably ppm with the pbm toolkit then convert ppm utah rle format with ppmtorle which provided the toolkit just use the urt tool rastorle seem remember that xloadimage can bit servers too yes both and the newer xli can wes barris minnesota supercomputer center inc email wes msc edu
comp.graphics	wanted bit viewer article seti inria deniaud cartoon inria gilles deniaud writes hello thanks the people who helped with the problem displaying bit images all the viewers like xli xloadimage and display are converting the bit images bit before display them the screen what really want viewer with make use the bit frame screen buffer our case the parallax one both xli and xloadimage will display bit color bit visual available check the output xdpyinfo see one wes barris minnesota supercomputer center inc email wes msc edu
comp.graphics	cga help wanted there looking for help rez cga modes hey know sounds crazy but the moment got card manual says does something like colour and colour the card has memory could anyone give some help how implement these modes assembly language fine any other usefull tips the cga regs will also help thanx advance frans email leander
comp.graphics	what has happened dkb trearn hello been the dkbtrace povray mailing list out trearn bitnet for some time now but when tried post the other day the listserv told that the list doesn exist got global list groups from the listserv and nothing grepped every string could think frank ville saari andre beck anyone else who regular dkb can tell what going please regards david drum mizzou missouri edu
comp.graphics	tangent vectors kochanek bartels splines working system which uses given set key frame positions control imaginary camera movement using kochanek bartels splines described the siggraph proceedings create variable number inbetweens between the key frames want the inbetweens given the form where the last three argumentsa are the and component the viewing direction vector the camera when positioned the method presented kochanek and bartels only deals with the positions the inbetween view points generated tried set the viewing direction view point equal the chord between the two adjacent view points which general are not key frames but this causes sligt discontinuity the viewing direction vector the key frame positions although the spatial movement seems work fine and quite certain think that not simply made implementation error now wonder anyone out there has used this spline form for similar purposes and how they decided the viewing vectors appreciate replies emailed iharkest lise unit anyone else interested the answer will sent summary the replies they contact iharkest lise unit comp nth norwegian institute technology some people play hard get play hard want ford fairlane
comp.graphics	need help buffering lines areas together david gorgen writes asking for help sticky problem involving unreasonably low apparent precision buffering that encountered different pex implementations can find any discussion this problem any resources can lay hands the comp windows pex faq gaskins pexlib programming manual vendors documentation the problem solved eliminate minimize stitching artifacts resulting from the use buffering with polylines that are coplanar with filled areas the interpolated values along line will differ slightly due roundoff error from the interpolated values across area even when the endpoints the line are coincident with vertices the area because this tossup whether the buffer will allow the line pixels the area pixels displayed visually the result tends dashed line effect even though the line supposed solid using the pexlib api approach solution use two slightly different pex view mapping transforms two view table entries one for the areas and one for the lines the pex structures immediate mode output must organized that one view table index always effect for areas and the other always effect for lines the result slight shift npc coordinates for the lines attempt bias the tossup situations favor the lines this shift effected moving the front and back clipping planes used the pexlib view table entry for lines just hair backwards smaller vrc coordinates compared their positions the view table entry used for areas this means that when point transformed npc its value will slightly bigger comes from line than comes from area thus accomplishing the desired bias would expect the roundoff errors which cause the problem amount few units most out the entire dynamic range the buffer typically from not bit buffers therefore seems that tiny fraction the range vrc between the front and back clip planes ought suffice reliably fix the stitching but fact experience shows that the shift has much the range empirically worst when the npc component the slope the surface high when appears more less edge the viewer only bits the buffer have any dependable meaning this amount great that one problem replaced another sometimes the polylines show through areas which they are supposed lie behind observed the problem both hewlett packard and digital workstation pex servers approximately the same degree the test program demonstrates the problem mit pexlib implementation this version known compile and run system with pex open questions why does this happen configuring the pex view table wrongly there systematic difference interpolation for lines opposed areas pixel centers versus corners which could corrected for are pex implementors wantonly discarding precision their interpolators something else what about can fix use the view table allow better precision buffered hlhsr there another approach can take remove the stitching artifacts just out luck here ibm have the same problem with our workstations was also shocked when first realized that you have offset lines from fills about bits assuming bit buffer this seems huge but only the dynamic range those terms doesn seem bad what happening that the interpolation not totally linear due mainly roundoff believe the polygon not planar but more like ruffles potato chip ditto with lines when you start end different values the ridges are out phase resulting the stitch effect you have the same problem you try draw polygon right top another but with different vertices you will likely see smeared effect where they overlap example try polygon polygon your implementation correct fact similar trick when rendering primitives that have lines and polygons such nurbs surfaces with isoparametric lines without the trick the lines appear stitched you say when the application draws lines polygons independently the system does not have the smarts automatically the shifting the application must this what you have discovered and are doing bravo note ibm ers the information given here has been previously disclosed through proper channels not giving away any new unpublished info mark einkauf einkauf austin ibm com ibm advanced workstations and systems graphics systems austin views and opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those ibm corp
comp.graphics	virtual sound looking for algorithms articles virtual sound what want the following from fast source cdrom several sound sources are read each having own defined position and other attributes direction etc given the listeners position and direction the sum sound played back each the listeners earphones will function this position and direction this means that some simulation the ears coloring sound relative incoming direction have done for each sound source think this possible with lookup table impulse responses for several angles relative each ear and interpolate impulse function from this for given angle this impulse function could then convoluted with the sound from the source this impulse function must changed every time some sound source changes position the listener changes orientation additionally some reflection diffusion and absorbtion due the environment wich defined could simulated but this requires some sort sound propagandation simulation kinda like some radiosity algorithm have someone done this and written articles implementing such system please post mail any answers comments torgeir veimo studying the university bergen gona wave freak flag high jimi hendrix and would okay any other day the police
comp.graphics	turning photographic images into thermal print and negatives jennifer lynn urso andrew cmu edu writes also anyone else doing what planning would happy hear from you with any advice you might provide the computer system you use and any peripherals software seemed the quadra would best bet modify photographic images planning buying quadra with megs ram meg hard drive dpi scanner sony monitor and meg cartridge drive and perhaps rom new computers and any advice would great well have lots experience with scanning images and altering them for changing them back into negatives that really possible scanning and altering big deal don know what types features you have your version photoshop but the one use which incidentally quadra has gallery effects and all types other neato stuff just wondering why you would want put your images back into negatives because once you print the image out that your print you know what exactly your aim all this like are you doing this just for fun for business gain more computer knowledge for project you working otherwise guess don know helping not posting info scanning and stuff cool seeya jennifer urso the bitter woman utter blahness but cheerful undertones for business and the end product has photograph take damaged black and whites usually old some very and repair them hand present would like this using computer just trying find vendor who can convert computer stored images negatives thermal print the customer will want his her copy much possible like brand new original photgraph david thanks all you who have sent information was very helpful learning about computers combined with photography anyone else has any information would grateful
comp.graphics	kubota kenai denali specs article apr dsd com pmartz dsd com paul martz writes does this mean they can either alpha stenciling but not both simultaneously don know the answer the this one although with bits would assume that was one the other stereo support yes yes other both machines will double buffer stereo output per window both have auxiliary video output that ntsc and pal same question again does this mean they can either double buffering stereo but not both simultaneously according the literature will quadruple buffering that you can have double buffered stereo output brian
comp.graphics	gif wpg tiff converter looking for available program that would convert gif files other formats usable dos based software such wordperfect presentations which will handle wpg and tiff among others any suggestions would appreciated thank you very much for your time and help steve alford novavax nova edu steve alford nova university college avenue lauderdale uucp gatech uflorida ucf novavax alford internet alford novavax nova edu
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance silly the number legs centipede now you know richard kirk image processing group crosfield electronics ltd rak crosfield hemel hempstead herts
comp.graphics	genoa windowsvga true color board for immediate release editorial contact single source marketing myra manahan genoa systems joseph brunoli neil roehm technical genoa presents high performance video graphics accelerator san jose calif usa genoa systems corporation announces windowsvga true color bit graphics accelerator card that delivers million colors speeds faster than the competition plus offers full range resolutions high refresh rates well unique proprietary performance features the card available both bit isa bus and bit vesa local bus versions models and with dram board the windowsvga card offers maximum resolution and supports refresh rate and resolution non interlaced both models provide performance many times greater than standard svga boards yet conform all current video standards windowsvga features genoa flickerfree technology which eliminates screen flash and flicker make viewing much more comfortable the cards also come with safescan utility developed genoa eliminate the black border around the screen and thereby provide percent screen use for overscanning monitors windowsvga model takes full advantage the speed offered the new vesa local bus technology most bus cards will only handle data transfers mhz but the will transfer data the full speed the cpu mhz genoa also offering this card the turbobahn combination packaged with their turboexpress motherboard built around the cirrus logic gui accelerator windowsvga offers the user exceptional price performance value genoa advanced proprietary drivers act turbocharge the chip thereby providing affordable accelerator card with power and performance that surpass many the more highly priced chip cards the genoa user will enjoy optimal speed and reliability for such programs windows autocad autoshade studio orcad and more driver updates and product bulletins are available genoa bbs genoa systems manufactures and markets extensive line graphics adapters motherboards audio and multimedia cards for ibm compatible personal computers all products come with two year limited warranty parts and labor genoa products are currently distributed worldwide through authorized distributors resellers vars and systems integrators for more information contact joe brunoli marketing manager genoa systems trimble road san jose calif tel fax stefan hartmann stefanh rahul net
comp.graphics	looking for patches better support tiff output recently have found tiff manipulation packages which not recognize tiff files output this due missing xresolution and yresolution tag which apparently required least believed required for valid tiff have checked both and and neither these indeed copy these tags has anyone out there hacked the fixes for support these tags have been told that could find some code tiff tools tiffcp but that directory one many the tiff group not distributed with hope obtain the original tiff src and look but would prefer find code already known work larry virden inet lvirden cas org personal falls place reynoldsburg
comp.graphics	paint program neopaint help looking for shareware graphics package called neopaint saw shareware catalog and was hoping that could ftp from the net but have been unable locate have tried archie and have gone through the entire comp graphics newsgroup looking for some reference and have found none have also looked through the faq and also reference the program called neopaint and anyone has heard knows where can get would appreciate suggestions for other based shareware paint programs would also appreciated email your responses much thanks sean
comp.graphics	sigkids research showcase call was brought attention that there was oversight the sigkids research showcase call for participation and entry form please note that the sigkids research showcase part siggraph august anaheim california thank you diane schwartz sigkids committee member institute for the learning sciences maple avenue suite evanston illinois schwartz ils nwu edu
comp.graphics	widget wish list very interested hearing from all you who are using implementing interactive applications what types widgets you would like have your applications widget usually located the same scene other objects the application may let you manipulate application data the camera objects the scene and view the status the application objects via the widget shape color position orientation and whatever missed but you think possible for example manipulative widget can virtual trackball shown partially transparent sphere super imposed the object rotated feedback widget can ruler with ends anchored objects the length the ruler changes the objects move and numeric value shown the ruler indicating the distance widget can provide both manipulation and feedback for example the ruler can used change the distance between the objects along its own axis please mail post your opinions interaction the information gathered will help design construction tool your help very much appreciated tony lau tlau ubc student dept computer science
comp.graphics	kubota kenai denali specs lioness maple circa ufl edu okay got enough replies about the kubota kenai denali systems that will post summary their capabilities graphics transform modules frame buffer modules frame buffer bit bit double buffered double buffered buffer bit bit alpha stencil bit bit pmartz dsd com paul martz does this mean they can either alpha stenciling but not both simultaneously lioness maple circa ufl edu stereo support yes yes other both machines will double buffer stereo output per window both have auxiliary video output that ntsc and pal pmartz dsd com paul martz same question again does this mean they can either double buffering stereo but not both simultaneously for both these questions inclusive alpha plus stencil supported they separate double buffered stereo steve hollasch kubota pacific computer inc hollasch kpc com santa clara california barbie had right math hard
comp.graphics	phigs user group conference first annual phigs user group conference the first annual phigs user group conference was held march orlando florida the conference was organized the rensse laer design research center operation with ieee and sig graph attendees came from five countries spanning three con tinents good cross section the phigs community was represented this conference with participants including phigs users workstation vendors third party phigs implementors stan dards committee members and researchers from industry and academia the opening speaker richard puk challenged phigs users take charge your phigs participating phigs standardization activities and communicating their needs phigs implementors the closing speaker andries van dam described his vision the future graphics standards beyond phigs technical paper sessions the conference covered the following topics phigs and application toolkits application issues texture mapping nurbs phigs extensions and object oriented libraries and frameworks panel sessions phigs and pex phigs non retained data real world cad applications using phigs and portability issues generated enthusiastic discussions and formed good forum for exchange ideas needs and experiences the conference also included day full tutorials topics rang ing from mathematics for graphics object oriented tools based phigs next year conference planned for march phigs everywhere the conference phigs vendors described and demonstrated phigs products that run all types computers from pcs mainframes megatek corporation demonstrated their phigs extensions including conditional traversal composite logical input devices texturing and translucency template graphics software launched figaro pro the photo realistic option for phigs figaro pro designed add advanced rendering the existing phigs api with features like ray tracing materials anti aliasing and texture mapping radiosity support also planned figaro example how tgs continues add newly emerging graphics features their products figaro supports immediate mode extensions phigs and also supports sun xgl starbase and sgi opengl figaro for will released this summer tgs also demonstrated the latest versions figraph powerful call charting system based phigs and figt object oriented utility library for phigs pex developers and gallium software demonstrated new version gphigs silicon graphics workstations scheduled for summer ver sion gphigs the company phigs library for worksta tions will include advanced phigs debugger that allows phigs developers display and browse phigs structures and other phigs internal state also described their non duplicated data store that stores pointers application data the gphigs css for more efficient use memory addition described their application gse that allows application callback functions during gphigs traversal gphigs and phigure data visual izer and application development toolkit are currently available all major workstations that support windows pex starbase wise software presented slide show phigs for windows and arena phigs based modeller render phigs implements most the phigs primitives addition phigs has built many advanced rendering features like texture mapping shadow genera tion area quick updates and ray tracing demo disk phigs arena available request atc exhibited grafpak phigs their full featured phigs implemen tation based dec phigs grafpak phigs available most workstation platforms with fortran and ada bindings and incor porates pex support within the booth sponsored advanced technology center digital equipment corporation demonstrated dec phigs running the dec axp pxg atcs grafpak phigs port dec phigs dec phigs contains most phigs and phigs plus features with support for pex protocol dec phigs also contains most eds phigs extensions including post view well proprietary extensions support immediate mode rendering and the use phigs environment axp dec and dec phigs are trademarks digital equipment cor poration grafpak phigs and atc are trademarks advanced tech nology center pex and are trademarks massachusetts insti tute technology the ibm exhibit featured gto accelerator attached ibm workstation running graphigs and pex hewlett packard and shographics demonstrated the conference hewlett packard machine was coupled display shographics pex terminal showcased their latest phigs product enhance ments phigs user group the phigs users group was formed aid the development phigs applications and provide user feedback phigs implementors and phigs standards bodies for more information about the phigs users group send mail phigsug cadrt edu write sankar jayaram virginia polytechnic institute randolph hall blacksburg fax vendor contacts megatek corporation tel fax template graphics software tel fax wise software gmbh tel fax north american sales tel fax advanced technology center tel fax digital equipment corporation tel international business machines corporation tel hewlett packard company tel copies the conference proceedings copies the conference proceedings may obtained contact ing mary johnson johnson mary design and manufacturing institute rensselaer polytechnic institute eighth street building cii room troy tel fax email mjohnson rdrc rpi edu the cost per binder
comp.graphics	parametric variational design everyone looking for papers articels books any other source information about parametric variational design cad solid modeling any suggetions references would greatly appreaciated thanks advance jayesh patel enuxha eas asu edu
comp.graphics	very broad question considering creating demo for the ibm for band would like combine interesting graphics and sample music the program have seen things like this done for other platforms and even few for the but since completly new this have idea wher start pretty sure that not skilled enough put this together but was hoping that you collectivly could let know what issues need worry about things should take into consideration when developing the concept perhaps someone knows programmer artist who would interested this type project know these are rather broad questions but any information would most helpful thanks gregory winer cwru edu
comp.graphics	rgb hvs and back article apr htsa aha remcoha htsa aha remco hartog writes have little question need convert rgb coded red green blue colors into hvs coded hue value saturnation colors does anyone know which formulas use have little answer see foley van dam feiner and hughes computer graphics principles and practice second edition people would read this book percent the questions this froup would disappear overnight spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource san diego jolla other car car too bumper strip seen
comp.graphics	gif viewer source code for does anyone know where could get some source code for gif viewer doesn have fancy would best were written display gif pictures vga screen was hoping get for free from ftp site but haven been able find yet david lau davidla ecs comm mot com
comp.graphics	final call for papers call for papers progress neural networks special volume shape analysis omid omidvar minsoo suk series editor volume editor significant progress has been made recently shape analysis using neural networks and the energy minimization concept ablex publishing corporation planning special volume shape analysis scheduled for this year this volume will part progress neural networks annual book series reviewing research modelling analysis design and application neural networks the primary aim this volume present single volume the most important achievements made this important topic which are otherwise scattered diverse literature authors are invited submit original manuscripts detailing recent progress suggested topics include but are not limited shape modelling shape estimation shape recovery shape representation shape matching surface reconstruction and surface decomposition research work utilizing neural networks directly based energy minimization techniques such markov random field mean field annealing simulated annealing graduated non convexity algorithms and resistive networks are most welcome the paper should tutorial nature self contained and preferably but not necessarily about fifty double spaced pages length please send electronically you prefer you can send hardcopy the address below abstract and outline msuk ima enst may the full paper must submitted july europe usa professor minsoo suk professor omid omidvar department images computer science department ecole nationale superieure university district columbia des telecommunications connecticut ave rue barrault washington paris cedex phone france fax fax email oomidvar udcvax bitnet email msuk ima enst
comp.graphics	acm siggraph registration problem word warning for those you registering for siggraph just received registration form back the mail with the envelope marked return sender moved left address closed box the address used register for siggraph the one printed the registration form acm siggraph box chicago printed the envelope best printing honest but evidently siggraph has skipped town moved ended faxing registration hope that number real michael zyda
comp.graphics	ntsc data rgb for video capture usually you apply after unlevelshifting and subtracting from them this matrix multiplication may give results out rgb space you have clamp the resulting bytes the conversion should done with arbitrary big integers not floats this applies yuv data whereas ntsc may have yiq where degree rotation buid brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.graphics	fast polygon routine needed article apr eye com jesse eye com jesse lackey writes article rguqoinnrc edna swin edu alan saturn swin alan christiansen writes believe that the algorithms you can get that will only draw convex polygons can much more efficient than those that can draw concave self intersecting polygons this efficiency can largely attributed the fact that simple convex polygons only have left and right edge each scan line complex figure type polygons can bit trickier true the convex algorithm faster than general concave multi outline algorithm but not tremendously faster spent awhile implementing and optimizing both flavors and the convex turned out about faster this all risc the compiler got the inner loop shooting the span fast possible far could tell for any sort game the database render known ahead time and can made all convex definitely the way thanks for help everyone still haven found quite what looking for but got finals coming soon have put all this hold thanx lucas
comp.graphics	digital terrain data for visualization needed need terrain data for visualization research currently taking place tel aviv university have two databases that are currently working but would like work more databases possibly more complicated and ones that will give prettier images before describe what kind data need let mention that are going present paper titled photo realistic imaging digital terrains which describes the research and the results the eurographics conference barcelona this september are going show video tape with some our results any good data that will receive will presented the tape with mention the donator are working databases consisting aerial satelite photographs and terrain elevation maps dtm each database consists array height values any data format can used for each value and corresponding array color values can gray level color value full bit values other format can also used work and resolution databases anybody has access this kind data knows where can get such data files please respond this news group better email directly amit math tau amit shaked danny indigo bgu daniel cohen course the names the people who will help get the data will cited our paper and further publications
comp.graphics	ftp site with gifs have been looking around some ftp sites and cannot find one with any good gif files could someone please tell some ftp sites which posses goods gifs and wide range please email the address above thanks martin
comp.graphics	kubota freedome more people have been asking for information the kubota graphics workstations here some more info the kenai denali the freedom here the text denali freedom done brown associates denali bears strong resemblance evans and sutherlands freedom graphics subsystem several aspects its high level design both products use parallel array processors for geometric computations both have pixel router connect this front end second array pixel processors result denali and freedome overlap significantly performance and functionality both design teams also appear have similar philosophies with respect modularity scalability and market penetration there remain however several important differences between the kpc and products evans and sutherland designed freedom high end developer dream system with plenty performance potential and flexibility its favor freedom has configurations from two sixteen floating point units border range that starts and ends higher price and performance levels than denali all freedom systems include large fixed number pixel processors that support broader variety color blending functions the freedom design treats its entire image memory general purpose memory allowing developers allocate flexible basis number special purpose applications finally provided freedom with very flexible otput and video integration features for multimedia and simulation applications note that kpc working auxiliary board for ntsc and pal output that will not require external video encoder programmable output features however will remain much more flexible the kpc design team contrast made denali more end user system entry version have better performance range and flexibility than low end freedom configurations and come more realistic mainstream price points denali does not need many modules freedome because uses deeper scan conversion pipeline support each one resulting better cost performance characteristics although both products provide strong support for imaging and volume rendering kpc recognized that not all users will want even mix these capabilities denali configuration flexibility allows customers effect purchase geometric and pixel processing capabilities separately and upgrade them separately needed both companies have implemented hardware texture mapping workstation price levels way attack sgi more expensive vgxt and realityengine systems the only other products provide this capability kpc supports point sampling and bilinear interpolation textures hardware but provides only software support for the higher qualtiy tri linear interpolated mipmapping method balance however denali provideds bettern overall texturing capabilities than for most applications aside from being much more affordable kpc solutions deliver more parallelism for texture processing and more off screen memory for general graphics data storage implementing texture mapping its transformation modules foces customers move very quickly higher price levels obtain better texturing performance kubota avoids this problem linking texturing its frame buffer modules providing lower cost more scalable solution hope this helps brian this was reprinted without permission for the full text please contact kubota
comp.graphics	problems article apr nessie mcc lilley mcc writes yes bit program this not bug never claimed bug can import bit images and quantises them down bits this handy facility not bug never claimed bug how would you suggest doing colour editing bit file how would you group related colours edit them together only global changes could done unless the software were very different and much more complicated you want colour editing bit image you need much more powerfull software which readily available commercially guess edited note this away from the article posted many newsgroups wrote something about making color modifications quickly with bit quantized images and only the saving the image file process have make the modifications the bit image this makes sense because the main use only viewing images doing many changes image should keep all modifications buffer and then before making the operations bit image should simplify the operation list for unnecessary operations and lastly jpeg compression algorithm can applied any image arbitrary bit depth again this not bug never claimed bug tried kept sure don claim that jpeg noting else than compression algorithm because know what the jpeg you propably misunderstood what wrote you have done many places far you also missed what were wrong with however did wrote juhana kouhia
comp.graphics	convertion program gremlin was wondering somebody knows program for converting any graphic formats such fig pic unixplot tek etc gremlin thanks dan
comp.graphics	human head modeling software article wbp taurus nps navy mil adaptive nps navy mil zyda res acct writes there interested facial animation and want implement some program about this area but don have any information for the face looking for some images face try getting the cyberware demo via ftp which contains images the face what the copyright status this data are there restrictions regarding the uses they can put kaveh kaveh kardan kardank ere umontreal kaveh all the data included with the cyberware demo non proprietary use you like just ask that you give credit you use research paper project and send the results thanks geo cyberware george dabrowski cyberware labs dabro taurus nps navy mil
comp.graphics	colour transform for red green colour blindness posted behalf craig southeren who does not have access net account can anyone provide with colour space transform that would emulate the effects red green colour blindness have had quick look the computer graphics literature with results perhaps someone who has access medical information could help would like write program probably ppm filter allow previewing images check for sufficient contract for colour blind users not being colour blind myself this bit difficult please email replies will summarise and repost there sufficient interest craig craig southeren you can have good cheap chief engineer fast any two picture start productions arthur clarke email geoffw ucc phone educate don legislate
comp.graphics	rgb hls hsv conversion routines wanted article sun nluug bultman dgw rws bultman writes looking for rgb cube hls double hexcone hsv cylinder conversion routines have rgb hsv but miss the hls rgb hsv have you checked foley book the solutions are chapter yeh usc
comp.graphics	rgb hvs and back article ltu buinne caspian usc edu zyeh caspian usc edu zhenghao yeh writes see foley van dam feiner and hughes computer graphics principles and practice second edition people would read this book percent the questions this froup would disappear overnight not really think less than nah figure most people would busy reading that they wouldn have time post spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource san diego jolla until meet you then upper hell convulsed foaming immortal blood farewell berryman professor song
comp.graphics	why does illustrator autotrace poorly use arts letters and you make use the tracing preferences traces beautifully but there trick tracing traced entire cartoon images into custom clip art but you can expect just point the image and get just like that takes little work some cases lot work you need trace drawing piece piece and then put together kinda hard explain type but you ever reno can give you little demonstration
comp.graphics	rgb hvs and back have little answer see foley van dam feiner and hughes computer graphics principles and practice second edition people would read this book percent the questions this froup would disappear overnight not really think less than yeh usc
comp.graphics	graphic design newsgroup which newsgroup discusses graphic design pcs and macs know like with corel draw
comp.graphics	screen capture there dos screen capture utility shareware that will work reliably with vesa screens thanks stockman hwstock sandia llnl gov
comp.graphics	arts letters graphics editor does anyone this group use this program stacks pretty well corel draw and since don have cdrom was the best buy maybe someone would interested trading tips and tricks
comp.graphics	ftp site with gifs mharring cch coventry martin writes have been looking around some ftp sites and cannot find one with any good gif files could someone please tell some ftp sites which posses goods gifs and wide range whatever you don ftp the sites listed sig you won like what you find really beg you not there please stastny otis project end process sound news and arts ftp sunsite unc edu pub multimedia pictures otis omaha projects otis email cwis unomaha edu sunsite unc edu
comp.graphics	colour transform for red green colour blindness article geoffw extro ucc geoffw extro ucc geoffrey warren hicks writes posted behalf craig southeren who does not have access net account can anyone provide with colour space transform that would emulate the effects red green colour blindness have had quick look the computer graphics literature with results perhaps someone who has access medical information could help certainly reference follows bear mind that there are least two conditions which may called red green colour blind one protanopia caused lack major dysfunction the cones those that respond best long wavelengths this gives much reduced red green and red violet discrimination and also means that reds look dimmer than than they people with normal vision the other deuteranopia due missing dysfunctional cones although can also caused lack the cone difference signals the retina also gives reduced red green discrimination but red violet unaffected unlike protanopia reds are not dimmer than normal uniform chromaticity diagram the horseshoe shaped one you see computer graphics books there single confusion point for each type colour deficiency colours which are confused lie straight lines radiating from this point for protanopia the point very close the far red corner for deuteranopia the point note that different experimental investigations the literature give slightly different values for these depending the precise details the experimental setup random errors and the values quoted are typical all colours line are seen the same which colour actually seen this problem has now been solved tests people with one normal eye and one affected eye have shown that there axis for each type disorder onto which all the colours collapse for protanopes this joins and the spectral locus the edge the horseshoe for deuteranopes the line very similar joining and convert colours from normal vision simulated protanopia duuteranopia plot the colour uniform chromaticity diagram construct line from this point the appropriate confusion point find the intersection this line with the appropriate axis line this the new chromaticity the best reference for this meyer greenberg colour defective vision and computer graphics displays ieee computer graphics and applications you will also need decent reference basic colour science you are not familiar with the cie xyz colour model and the uniform chromaticity scale diagram would like write program probably ppm filter allow previewing images check for sufficient contract for colour blind users not being colour blind myself this bit difficult yes this certainly possible you will need the chromaticities the red green and blue phosphors the monitor you intend display the images and the chromaticity the white point this information can measured obtained from the manufacturer posted list some monitor chromaticities couple weeks ago the procedure for each pixel follows some lookup tables might help here convert rgb cie xyz this simple matrix multiplication once you have the monitor data retaining the component for later convert xyz chromaticity coordinates using find the equation the line step above find the intersection step convert back from xyz using the value from step ensure that this new colour can displayed your monitor not move along line xyz space towards neutral grey half way between black and white until displayable please email replies will summarise and repost there sufficient interest done also posted for the rest chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester internet lilley mcc voice fax janet lilley mcc
comp.graphics	gif viewer having trouble viewing gif files system large sections don show have tried vpic and picem both the same running gateway with speedstar plus vga card and nec multisync inch monitor any suggestions don know robert woodward department physiology university missouri columbia mail mizzou missouri edu
comp.graphics	turning photographic images into thermal print and negatives article apr seq uncwil edu hawks seq uncwil edu david hawks writes for business and the end product has photograph take damaged black and whites usually old some very and repair them hand present would like this using computer just trying find vendor who can convert computer stored images negatives thermal print the customer will want his her copy much possible like brand new original photgraph there are several crt film writers around agfa has some they also might called matrix and pretty sure other companies sell the same equipment you might want talk any company your area that does presentation slides offers graphics services they should have those machines and they might point you local vendor from there all question money they units are essentially high res crts plus filter wheel plus camera and computer hook david reiner currently shooting slides for next talk one the agfa machines
comp.graphics	viewing jpeg files can view jpeg files without special hardware lucy wilson access services librarian college engineering university cincinnati
comp.graphics	libraries for text math graphics display does anyone know any libraries for preparing and displaying quickly pages mixed text mathematical equations and graphics circles ellipses etc the vdu the maths wouldnt need tex quality but would useful scaleable the main thing would able generate the display quickly from minimum set formatting code thanks campbell
comp.graphics	rgb hvs and back article ltu buinne caspian usc edu zyeh caspian usc edu zhenghao yeh writes see foley van dam feiner and hughes computer graphics principles and practice second edition people would read this book percent the questions this froup would disappear overnight not really think less than alternatively the questions cover the topics this group making them frequently asked the other cover the topics making them rarely asked and thus sore need answering chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester internet lilley mcc voice fax janet lilley mcc
comp.graphics	problems article rohjc avt tut lehtori tut kouhia juhana writes article apr nessie mcc lilley mcc writes moved bit wrote something about making color modifications quickly with bit quantized images and only the saving the image file process have make the modifications the bit image this makes sense because the main use only viewing images doing many changes image should keep all modifications buffer and then before making the operations bit image should simplify the operation list for unnecessary operations think about what you are saying here the bit image quantised down bits many similar colours are mapped onto single palette colour this colour gets modified fairly arbitrary ways you then want apply these modifications back the bit file you have find which colours mapped this one palette colour you could this copying the bit file bit file and using the extra bits hold the index entry having done this you need something them what exactly apply the difference rgb between the original and modified palette entry each colour the group this could generate colours with rgb outside the range would also lead discontinuities when different parts smooth colour gradient mapped several different palette entries you could interpolate from full modification modification depending how far each colour was from the palette entry however suspect this would look rather odd summary what said previous posting still holds how would you suggest doing colour editing bit file how would you group related colours edit them together only global changes could done unless the software were very different and much more complicated you want colour editing bit image you need much more powerfull software which readily available commercially other words edit bit file you need software built for the job tacking mods onto going create more problems than solves the other bits you seemed claiming that there were bugs that was not what you meant then you propably misunderstood what wrote you have done many places far yes probably did found that the collected digest format your posting made little difficult understand precisely what your point was sorry misunderstood you also missed what were wrong with however did wrote yes again what was wrong with chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester internet lilley mcc voice fax janet lilley mcc
comp.graphics	question modes need know there color graphics mode that allows multiple pages want something like mode pages have been experimenting with graphics calling the bios with borland turbo feel like flying blind this area and could use all the help that you can give thanks ivan ivan pulleyn university rochester mail uhura rochester edu
comp.graphics	raw gif hello can anybody help find program that converts format named raw also known img the gif format jpeg one desirable for unix machine than for raw format image file that contain tail characters each one referencing the pixel the monocrome image where and lies between and thanxs mne ing puc
comp.graphics	pbm dec when the new version does anyone know the fabled new version pbm will out soon far know the current version dec jeff are you out there jeffrey hundstad
comp.graphics	ascii ansi pics where can someone tell where could find ansi ascii pics already found the gopher ascii pics thanks richard mancsuo curdm uxa ecn bgu edu
comp.graphics	digital cameras interested obtaining the highest possible image capture windows application the resulting image must print and high resolution the name the game familiar with and unhappy with composite video capture technology what kind resolution can get out svhs signal what about rgb and who makes rgb cameras does anyone have any experience with digital cameras any help all would greatly appreciated william brandsdorfer uucp uunet lehman com wbrand lehman brothers inet wbrand lehman com greenwich voice new york
comp.graphics	windows bmp something wanted day all looking for program convert bmp images gif tga even ppm prefer unix program but dos fine also seen alchemy for dos and some windows image viewers which can save image other formats but what after converter not viewer any help would apprieciated cheers stephen peter unsw edu stephen peter steve keystone arch unsw edu school architecture university new south wales australia phone fax messages
comp.graphics	ibm writing screen memory graphics can anyone give information lead electronic information not books too poor regarding programming the standard graphics modes and are easy enough but not sure about the rest something about planes something and writing ports and the like but don know the numbers anything for the color modes think wrong let know also just one byte pixel that easy enough but are there any other ways write the screen perhaps bytes time something like that course appreciate any information about any mode which reminds another question the supervga modes work the same generally the normal and color modes not only the mode numbers for various cards different but the methods for writing the screen different well thanks for any help you can give developing screen class for and find myself searching for information have ralf brown interrupt list which has given tons invaluable information already just doesn into the screen programming details except for the read write pixel bios calls thanks again edward ball sigless knight eball calvin edu
comp.graphics	synergy revolt otis colaberation project the otis project presents synergy revolt the first continuing series collaborative art initiatives designed exploit the binarity the infosphere this series diversely structured art manipulation projects will attempt stretch across network boundries encouraging use electronic mail fax video photography scanned conventional art and even sound create multi artist still visuals gif and jpg formats visualists from all technical levels are welcome revolt will structured simply there will three stages production the first stage will consist all participants creating one still work starter piece that two other partici pants will turn manipulate all first stage base images are due sunday may midnight central daylight time stage two will begin may all images will sent another arbitrarily chosen participant for them manipulations anyway they see fit for purely digital artists this may consist filtering the image through their favorite paint program for analog artists this may well printing hardcopy the image and adding their own part with pen pencil white out then scan ning the image again transferred the third stage artist all second stage works are due midnight sunday may stage three the finishing stage and will begin may all artists will what they think takes finish the image they been given using whatever technique they see worthy these images will due june midnight all involved will participate each stage creation join send email mail with the following info name email address mail address scanner access color grey none printer access laser postscript inkjet color dot computer access mac ibm sun amiga atari next other output format tiff targa gif jpeg pict postscript fax photocopy pcx windows bitmap graphics level bit bit bit ftp access time limitations address the information email mad celt cwis unomaha edu andrew booth project manager include revolt the subject line mail the otis project synergy revolt omaha remember all starter images are due sunday may deposit them either these ftp sites sunsite unc edu pub multimedia pictures otis incoming projects otis incoming send uuencoded images via email send hardcopies address above arrange fax exchange you don get your starter image you won able participate until synergy phase mid june will our best accomodate facilitate image exchange for the technologically impaired you don have access scanner but need one try help you need image printed out and sent you let know send sase you anticipate this additional information available the following suggestions for use uncommon mediums such video stills electronic imaging and sound fax availability times copyright considerations appropriation image conversion the otis project general andy booth were you ever abducted aliens ever see elvis the local would like hear from you omaha about any paranormal experiences you have had
comp.graphics	rgb hvs and back remco hartog remcoha htsa aha wrote have little question need convert rgb coded red green blue colors into hvs coded hue value saturnation colors does anyone know which formulas use lets see have this right hsv hsb hsl and none those are the same hls hopefully hvs just transposition hsv and not yet another color model the following code should the hsv hsl coding haven tried yet thanks bultman dgw rws another possibility mirrors msdos graphics graphgem zip wuarchive wustl edu bill neisius bill solaria hac com the following code from the starbase manual all coordinates noralised interval hsl rgb hue saturation luminosity red green blue float hue saturation luminosity input hsl float red green blue output rgb float frac temporaries hue hue frac hue int hue luminosity saturation luminosity saturation frac luminosity saturation frac switch int hue case case red luminosity green blue break case red green luminosity blue break case red green luminosity blue break case red green blue luminosity break case red green blue luminosity break case red luminosity green blue break rgb hsl red green blue hue saturation luminosity define max define min float red green blue input rgb float hue saturation luminosity output hsl float tempr tempg tempb temporary values hue saturation luminosity max red green blue min red green blue luminosity calculate only necessary saturation luminosity luminosity saturation calculate only necessary tempr luminosity red luminosity tempg luminosity green luminosity tempb luminosity blue luminosity red luminosity hue green tempb tempg else green luminosity hue blue tempr tempb else hue red tempg tempr hue
comp.graphics	help needed dxf iff sorry this faq but are there any conversion utilities available for autodesk dxf amiga iff format checked the comp graphics faq and number sites but far banana please mail thanks pei hsieh mail cunixb columbia edu there such thing small job just small fees anon being architect
comp.graphics	looking for polygon convexifier does anyone know where can find code which would take concave polygons and break them into set convex polygons thanks kevin sahr piglet uccs edu
comp.graphics	looking for job software engineer not sure that supposed post this mail here however during the last year while was involved developing graphical user interface gui applications have enjoyed being personally part this news group wherin got some interesting information which helped work posting resuming hoping that people working area would make time look westgate hall isu ames april dear prospective employer seeking employment software engineer with interests software design and development which can utilize experience hardware programming graphical user interface gui operating systems and computer networking received bachelors engineering degree electronics engineering and degree electrical engineering dec from iowa state university currently enrolled computer engineering iowa state university during masters program research assistant since jan have published three papers including one the ieee transactions magnetics these papers are reflection the quality research and ability learn new concepts quickly have been involved many projects involving software developments and have extensive experience programming fortran and assembly level also familiar with operating systems like unix ultrix and dos familiar with motif programming and currently research assistant involved graphical user interface gui design using the multiplatform gui toolkit xvt experiences also include areas such operating systems and computer networks through course work and projects was involved the study the design and development the internals the xinu operating system have also been involved many tcp programming projects computer networking while college learnt the importance clear and concise communication have also learned lot about time management program have maintained grade average worked hours per week and have enjoyed being involved many other extra curricular activities software experiences along with hardware background electronics engineering would very helpful career goals software engineer request that qualifications may kindly reviewed would like have interview discuss your employment needs and career goals eager hear from you soon sincerely rajesh rajsnr iastate edu resume rajesh work residence coover isu westgate hall isu ames ames mail rajsnr iastate edu objective obtain challenging position software engineer involving software design and development which can utilize experience hardware programming graphical user interface gui operating systems and computer networking education currently enrolled computer engineering iowa state university ames iowa electrical engineering iowa state university ames iowa dec gpa major overall thesis probability detection pod models for eddy current nondestructive evaluation nde methods project funded federal aviation administration faa electronics engineering bangalore university bangalore india jan publications rajesh udpa and udpa numerical model based approach for estimating probability detection nde applications ieee transactions magnetics vol march rajesh udpa and udpa estimation eddy current probability detection using finite element model presented the annual review progress quantitative nondestructive evaluation conferance san diego california jul rajesh udpa udpa and nakagawa probability detection models for eddy current nde methods presented the annual review progress quantitative nondestructive evaluation conferance brunswick jul relevant implemention operating systems electronic devices and circuits course computer network architecture pulse and digital circuits work advanced computer communications artificial neural networks introduction supercomputing pattern recognition microprocessors and computer digital image processing organization digital signal processing computer technology and integrated circuits and design programming projects implementation the fork system call the xinu operating system also involved the implementation cpu scheduling algorithm taking into consideration the aging processes this project involved the study the design and development the internals the xinu operating system design and development interrupt driven keyboard driver this project involved thorough understanding device drivers design and development unix like tree structured directory which allows the creation subdirectories and organization files accordingly this project included the implementation routines such mkdir rmdir and support the directory structure analysis methods congestion control computer networks implementation the bellman ford routing algorithm for distributed network the communication between network nodes was based udp this project involved programming simulation the various digital logic functional units starting from the basic gates registers counters adders multipliers arithmetic logic unit alu and the project involved extensive programming unix environment work research assistant center for nde iowa state university ames experience aug present work involves development applications using graphical user interface gui toolkits familiar with programming motif environment more recent work involves development multiplatform gui applications using the portable gui toolkit xvt this project supported nist national institute standards and technology research assistant center for nde iowa state university ames jan aug work involved developing software for modeling electromagnetic nde techniques such the eddy current method also involved optimization the code the parallel computer cray ymp this project was supported faa and involved working close contact with the aircraft industry boeing trainee engineer indian telephone industries bangalore india work involved design and development microprocessor based programmable telephone dialler used cordless telephones involved programming microprocessor control the pulsing actions the relays telephone circuit jan nov computer languages fortran assembly level skills software motif xvt computer graphics hoops tcp programming image processing utilities sdrc ideas autocad operating systems unix stellix ultrix dos systems dec series and sun workstations macintosh stellar parallel systems cray ymp ibm maspar cube honours and iowa state university graduate college scholarship activities jan present ranked out over students bachelors engineering entrance examination ensuring full scholarship from the state pursue bachelors degree current member ieee references available upon request
comp.graphics	intel pci standard read mesg somewhere genie about intel coming out with graphics standard called pci which would supplant vesa standards this rumor there some substance any all have heard this standard please mail how might obtain more info thanks advance vamilliron othello ucd edu
comp.graphics	pov ray for vax computer there using pov ray ibm compatible home but would like run some things work our vax computer believe there version the source code for pov ray that vax specific but not sure where find looked the several sites where the ibmpc version can found can anyone help thanks advance ross kummer rmit melbourne australia internet address rkummer phillip edu clever signoff yet too busy playing with pov ray
comp.graphics	gws anybody know where can get graphics work shop brad utkvx utk edu
comp.graphics	problems article apr nessie mcc lilley mcc writes article rohjc avt tut lehtori tut kouhia juhana writes wrote something about making color modifications quickly with bit quantized images and only the saving the image file process have make the modifications the bit image this makes sense because the main use only viewing images doing many changes image should keep all modifications buffer and then before making the operations bit image should simplify the operation list for unnecessary operations think about what you are saying here the bit image quantised down bits many similar colours are mapped onto single palette colour this colour gets modified fairly arbitrary ways you then want apply these modifications back the bit file you have find which colours mapped this one palette colour suppose you don know what about have discussed discussed about error which shows images only bit and suggestion above works perfectly with far have seen colormap editing window that there must colormap anyway the problems you present are exist anyway and didn tried solve them all because would not make such problems programs the first place gamma and color corrections are easily done bit image presented there need make tricks from bit quantized image back bit image how would you suggest doing colour editing bit file how would you group related colours edit them together only global changes could done unless the software were very different and much more complicated you writing about situation that user want edit images bit and user want edit individual colors your questions the way jumps off the discussion bit solution doesn work because there colormap withing real bit image you see user see bit image going back bit silly about changing individual colors bit quantized rasterized image changing individual colors colormap useless most cases the image quantized and rasterized small change may make serious errors anywhere the image allows this feature but don recommend use with the mentioned type images moreover not paint program you can only make those global changes full bit changing individual colors sounds like paint program job person have bit screen there need for tricks get the original bit image modified because user don see full bit image there need make approximations and not possible modify individual colors but individual pixels pixel groups image rasterized select indiavidual color there could cursor window which shows true color image cursor window area selecting individual color possible from that don have thought very much bit painting programs never seen such good view and are not planned make such not mention bit painting program bit screen yes again what was wrong with saved bit quantized rasterized images bit jpegs jpeg not designed for that also human expect that bit will saved bit image say person would like crop part the image and save then expected that the image still the same were designed without thinking about human interface and how human expect the program work design error have heard were designed first for bit images files but were not good idea take full bit images without making major change the original design even all screen images are bit the processed images and saved images could have been bit very easily instead bit before anybody will make note yes may well make lift where means that the lift goes down and down means that the lift goes and put note this design solution the manuals however even the manuals tells the correct situation doesn solve the problem americans the lift just example well text may bit hard reading hopefully you suggeeded read juhana kouhia
comp.graphics	raw gif you can use pbm rawtopgm convert three raw files pgm format then you can use pgm toppm convert the pgm files composite ppm file and feed this cjpeg for compression slow and circuitous but will work rick
comp.graphics	help needed dxf iff article apr news columbia edu cunixb columbia edu pei hsieh writes sorry this faq but are there any conversion utilities available for autodesk dxf amiga iff format checked the comp graphics faq and number sites but far banana please mail thanks pei hsieh mail cunixb columbia edu there such thing small job just small fees anon being architect hei pei can not help you directly width you problem but there may intermediate roads take get the iff using converter that can take iges iif dxf iges milespec iges milespec iges iif milespec iif milespec iif and dxf iif ibm iges format there may converters out there that can handle iges iff hope this was any help the way the converter part the iges processor package from ibm and runs aix best regard finn chr lundbo ibm bergen environmental sciences solutions centre mail finn bsc
comp.graphics	for dos what the problem downloaded the file exe zip from the site someone posted here contained the files cjpeg exe djpeg exe exe when tried run just said couldn run exe and halts what the matter with this are there some files missing the zip what exe any help appreciated bye wolfram wolfram kresse mail wolfram rbg informatik darmstadt meeneemeeneemeenee yes that right tweeky
comp.graphics	alpha kubota graphic sgi who has experience with porting program alpha apx workstation with kubota denali graphic there any problems the real graphic performance like sgi indigo juergen fechter universitaet tuebingen wsi gris office auf der morgenstelle fax tuebingen germany email fechter gris informatik uni tuebingen
comp.graphics	tiff complexity article enet dec com you write anyone who thinks that tiff too complex hasn dealt with cgm asn cda dca sgml any one number other very successful file format people seem perfectly capable dealing with these others well yeah but unlike tiff they all substantially more than encode rectangular bitmaps and the others are hardly trouble free hear that quite common for cgm implementations not interoperate the annoying thing about tiff that that along with the useful options there are stupid options the most egregious example that rather than picking byte order and bit order and using consistently all tiff files byte and bit order are options and all tiff readers all machines matter what their natural byte order have prepared byte swapping there are four slightly different fax formats again any one them would have been adequate rgb images can stored pixel component complexity without function etc etc also note that the tiff doc says that aldus experiments show that lzw reliably compresses well better than any the fax formats suggesting that none the fax formats are really useful what worse lot the formats aren even implemented very well lzw limits code words bits while bits would have provided substantially better compression and the lzw method compresses bytes rather than pixels but the absolute worst thing about tiff that any vendor can register proprietary tiff codes and formats without even publicly documenting them this means that there way write tiff reader that can reliably read all incoming tiff files some standard regards john levine johnl iecc cambridge spdcc ima world iecc johnl
comp.graphics	help need bits viewer article apr labtam labtam graeme labtam labtam graeme gill writes article seti inria deniaud cartoon inria gilles deniaud writ looking for program which able display bits images are using sun sparc equipped with parallax graphics board running xli xloadimage imagemagick export lcs mit edu contrib shareware supports bit displays and has lots other improvements over earlier versions definitely worth checking out also export jean jean liddle computer science illinois state university mail jliddle ilstu edu
comp.graphics	looking for brain cad jasen mabus rpi student looking for hman brain any cad dxf cad iges cgm etc picture gif jpg ras etc format for animation demonstration any has knows location please reply mail mabusj rpi edu thank you advance jasen mabus
comp.graphics	sci files and sco files hello there week ago guy asked what sco file was well researched bit and foundout that just another rix file sci files are files and sco files are files alle the other formats are also called something like character regards rued
comp.graphics	real article vall dsv matt dah dsv mattias dahlberg writes rauno haapaniemi raunoh otol wrote earlier today read for real animation ray tracing software and looked very convincing yes looks like very good indeed however don own amiga and began wonder there version nope did not hear that there maybe some ports real version the pipeline somewhere possibly unix not too sure though please put straight gary work serc daresbury lab internet coulter daresbury uni staffordshire university hardware regards email mattias matt dah dsv love
comp.graphics	tom gaskins pexlib phigs programming manuals reilly article neuro usc edu merlin neuro usc edu merlin writes could someone explain the difference between tom gaskins two books pexlib programming manual phigs programming manual why would want buy one book the other book have pexlib and phigs comes from mit with pex and explained the phigs programming manual are just different api for the pex protocol which extension the protocol depends you what you use advantage phigs the protability other platforms ibm graphigs sunphigs and the standardized structuring the objects advantage pexlib the sometimes faster and easier programming for immediate mode graphics because pex not exactly mapping phigs prortocol ooo ooo roland holzapfel computer email wilhelminenstrasse graphics holzapfe igd fhg darmstadt center phone germany zgdv this space intentionally left blank
comp.graphics	intel pci standard vamilliron yes intel pci another local bus standard which can used for graphics although believe local buses can used for other things too far know though pci local bus would compete with vesa local bus not the vesa graphics standard but others more enlightened might able shed more light this matter
comp.graphics	wanted shareware graphics display program for dos need graphics display program that can take parameter the name the file displayed then just display that image and then quit all the other graphics display programs come with menu first some other silliness this program going run from within another program have lots memory and vga color any graphics format will has anyone heard such beast keith keith knudsen notre dame
comp.graphics	scia invitation the scia the scandinavian conference image analysis will arranged the norwegian society for image processing and pattern recognition nobim and sponsored the international association for pattern recognition iapr the conference will held tromsoe from may tromsoe located latitude degrees northern norway centre for administration and education about the programme the scientific programme runs over four days and includes invited speakers sessions three parallel tracks with contributed papers and poster sessions with contributions the conference covers the following topics image processing and analysis pattern recognition computer vision parallel algorithms and architectures neural nets matching methods image compression remote sensing medical and biological applications industrial applications conference language the official language the conference english invited talks and speakers segmentation range images via data fusion and morphological watersheds professor ralph gonzalez university tennessee knoxville object recognition using range images professor anil jain michigan state university experiments mobile robot navigation and range imaging judd jones oak ridge national laboratory image compression professor tor ramstad university trondheim combining evidence dictionary based probabilistic relaxation professor kittler university surrey matching methods professor sanfeliu polytechnic university catalonia workshop connection with the conference workshop contextual methods pattern recognition will arranged monday iapr for further information concerning the workshop contact torfinn taxt chairman univ bergen bergen norway phone fax mail torfinn taxt uib registration information the registration fee nok the fee covers proceedings entrance all oral and poster sessions exhibition lunches and coffee breaks get together party reception and banquet fees for accompanying persons are presented the registration form all payments must made payable norwegian kroner nok swift xiannokktrm bank giro service bank account sas conference forut christiania bank kreditkasse private cheques will not accepted the following credit cards visa mastercard eurocard diners access american express please note for payment with swift and bank giro service made from abroad please add banking fee nok please remember state scia and your name all money transfers registration and information the conference secretariat will available all four days the conference for registration and information may the sas hotel may the university exhibition exhibition relevant literature will arranged publishers are invited exhibit their products visit local companies and institutions involved the field mostly remote sensing will arranged accommodation reservation for hotel accommodation can made the registration form the scia conference secretariat sas luftreisebyraa att bodil lauritsen will provide hotel accommodation for the participants social events monday may get together party included the conference fee for delegates nok for accompanying persons tuesday may fishing trip the tour will last for hours and hopefully the midnight sun will visit board the boat there will music food and drink choice bring fishing rods and will possible have our own fish prepared board nok spouse programme visit cable car storsteinen meters above sea level visit the arctic cathedral and visit tromsoe museum nok wednesday may due the cancellation the svalbard flight will arrange visit the beerhall nok including beer and food spouse programme visit fishfarm the surroundings tromsoe nok thursday may banquet included the conference fee for delegates accompanying persons nok spouse programme visit the northern lights planetarium and the polar museum nok the spouse programs need minimum participants arranged post conference tours with visit lyngen finnmark and norh cape will also arranged for more information about the social program and the post conference tours see the registration form and information included with the registration form weather and dress the weather tromsoe late may can everything from hour sunshine with maximum temperature degrees celsius snowstorms with temperatures below freezing therefore recommended bring some warmer clothes local information the population approximately tromsoe you can take part many activities from mountaineering the midnight sun late night fun international restaurants and bars afternoon local beer the beerhall the world northernmost brewery also recommended the scandinavian conference image analysis scia will held the university campus the world northernmost university there will conference buses going the campus from within walking distances all the hotels more detailed information about the locations and transport will available the conference hotels travel information tromsoe airport langnes only minutes drive from the centre tromsoe the travelling distance from oslo minutes sas conference 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comp.graphics	pov ray for vax computer get the generic version for unix and vms and build imho vms com file build supplied the distribution comes tar you should either have uncompress and tar vms unix flavoured machine handy usually you won find this ibm specific archives but the better ones brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.graphics	problems oops what the hell crosspost this have look onto before saying anything more about power brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.graphics	picture ascii conversion was wondering anyone has ever seen heard utility that converts any type image format gif tiff pcx bmp jpeg etc ascii representation have seen some very sophiticated art ascii format but never was able find the author any program that may have converted the data from picture format any help leads would great thanks advance danny dunlavy ddunlavy casbah acns nwu edu
comp.graphics	arts letters graphics editor comp graphics menchett dws unr edu peter menchetti writes does anyone this group use this program stacks pretty well corel draw and since don have cdrom was the best buy maybe someone would interested trading tips and tricks yes have both arts letters and coreldraw personally like arts letters better but there are things like about arts letters that coreldraw doesn vice versa haven found the perfect graphics program that does everything yet favorite feature from coreldraw that imports alot different formats arts letters does not like the thousands clipart available with arts letters however find looking them book and referencing them number annoying one major problems that there isn any programs available the market for the artistically deprived betty harvey harvey oasys navy mil david taylor model basin adp networking and communication assessment carderock division branch naval surface warfare code center bethesda dtmb nswc fax
comp.graphics	software development libs for old targa boards revamping some computer aided visual inspection systems which use the old targa board set cards display images from color ccd camera color monitor providing the option overlay text crosshair image capture manipulation performed just display would like know there still source for development libraries which would allow embed commands own software enable the camera draw crosshairs print text etc glad pay they are commercially available mail possible joe ryburn cim manager intergraph corporation manufacturing integration huntsville
comp.graphics	sgi sales practices was crimson was kubota announcement olson anchor esd sgi com dave olson writes but surely you don expect system you buy now for five year period constantly upgradable over that entire five year period what sort interesting about this whole thread just how much has common with similar threads groups dealing with other vendor hardware currently deal basically with hardware from vendors apple dec and sgi and thus tend monitor the groups about those vendor hardware currently seems like sgi customers are pissed sgi about dropping support for the personal iris dec customers are pissed dec for dropping mips support favor the new alpha boxes and apple customers seem get pissed every time new mac introduced that faster and cheaper than the one they just bought when used sun customer years ago remember people being pissed sun for leaving their and customers out the cold when sparc came along what really interesting that from what can tell the mis folks the basement with their don seem pissed ibm why have idea either ibm really does take care their customers better they just have their customers brainwashed better than the smaller vendors roy smith roy nyu edu hippocrates project department microbiology coles nyu school medicine first avenue new york this never happened bart simpson
comp.graphics	lcd vga display please help have ibm compatible notebook computer with lcd vga screen while was working with this morning the screen started flicker little which thought was odd since use surge protector for computer and all peripherals only did this for second and then stopped left the room for several minutes and when returned the screen was completely dim not blank but very very dim the contrast slider still worked that could adjust where could faintly make out what was the screen but the brightness slider had absolutely effect was plugged the time not using the battery but still tried switching the battery changing the power saver features etc etc all avail has anyone else experienced anything like this this just means that need replace the screen then guess have but thought that the death lcd screen would little less dramatic when eventually happened didn want take repaired before asked the net about this because already know what they say yep you gotta have this replaced and gonna cost you only had the computer for about months that reasonable life cycle for lcd display guess ought give specifics here the brand compudyne this reputable company mhz forget the model number exactly and was too ticked off write down before coming work today anyone can help please give any advice you might have not opposed having replaced but rather not not absolutely necessary you wouldn mind please mail mike mik uky edu but you rather post checking back here couple days btw the answer this question already faq somewhere feel free flame away but would ask that you also include the location and name the faq you don mind thanks advance for any help mike mattone mike mik uky edu
comp.graphics	sgi sales practices was crimson was kubota announcement article calvin nyu edu roy mchip med nyu edu roy smith writes what really interesting that from what can tell the mis folks the basement with their don seem pissed ibm why have idea either ibm really does take care their customers better they just have their customers brainwashed better than the smaller vendors mis folks have infinite budgets death and they also get parts their budget allocated upgrades maintenance and new purchases and lot ibm mainframe purchases are actually leases and the software basically the engineers who have tight budgets the coders and designers company bitch and moan when they drop sparc only see faster machine appear year later mis types upgrade once every years and their costs are amortized and depreciated over longer period and the budget office justifies the expense because they actually use the machines for accounting payroll etc now the budget office was dependant the engineers for some reason like payroll and accounts you sure hell see every engineer with new cray his desktop every year brian
comp.graphics	fractel trees working senior project here florida the project requires fractel trees interested either psuedo real code just about anything will help perhaps some good books the subject could help too mail will reach quartz iriquois eel ufl edu thanks bill devore
comp.graphics	make your mind was problems article rqisi rhj tut lehtori tut kouhia juhana writes article apr nessie mcc lilley mcc writes article rohjc avt tut lehtori tut kouhia juhana writes wrote something about making color modifications quickly with bit quantized images and only the saving the image file process have make the modifications the bit image this makes sense because the main use only viewing images doing many changes image should keep all modifications buffer and then before making the operations bit image should simplify the operation list for unnecessary operations think about what you are saying here the bit image quantised down bits many similar colours are mapped onto single palette colour this colour gets modified fairly arbitrary ways you then want apply these modifications back the bit file you have find which colours mapped this one palette colour suppose you don know what about have discussed discussed about error which shows images only bit and suggestion above works perfectly with look consistent first you post something that seems suggest that you see being bit program some sort error post and asy not bug meant like that you post and say not bug you never said was have misunderstood etc now you are saying discussed about error which shows images only bit you would make your mind what you are claiming would make the discussion lot easier far have seen colormap editing window that there must colormap anyway the problems you present are exist anyway and didn tried solve them all because would not make such problems programs the first place sorry don understand what you are saying here aware that english not your native language and have tried hard fathom your meaning but this paragraph defeats gamma and color corrections are easily done bit image presented there need make tricks from bit quantized image back bit image yes originally said global changes are easily possible but this statement contradicts what you said earlier wrote something about making color modifications quickly with bit quantized images and only the saving the image file process have make the modifications the bit image how would you suggest doing colour editing bit file how would you group related colours edit them together only global changes could done unless the software were very different and much more complicated you writing about situation that user want edit images bit and user want edit individual colors your questions the way jumps off the discussion bit don think actually you were talking about loading bit image into quantising manipulating the colours the colour editor then somewhow applying these changes the bit file when you exit lets you edit individual colours where this sudden jumping off the topic solution doesn work because there colormap withing real bit image yes aware there colourmap bit file you see user see bit image going back bit silly not understand what this statement supposed mean about changing individual colors bit quantized rasterized image changing individual colors colormap useless most cases the image quantized and rasterized small change may make serious errors anywhere the image what are you saying allows this feature but don recommend use with the mentioned type images now see thew problem first you want extend allow editing bit previews bit images then point out problems with this now you are saying there problem because you personally happen not use those parts the program that cause the problem moreover not paint program you can only make those global changes not sure what you are saying here certainly one can make local changes full bit changing individual colors sounds like paint program job person have bit screen there need for tricks get the original bit image modified because user don see full bit image there need make approximations and not possible modify individual colors but individual pixels pixel groups image rasterized select indiavidual color there could cursor window which shows true color image cursor window area selecting individual color possible from that yes that one possible approach would find program that took such approach clumsy however don have thought very much bit painting programs never seen such good view and are not planned make such not mention bit painting program bit screen well here agree you have not thought through very much you don seem have consistent point make and contradict yourself from one post the next all have off days perhaps you should step back and think this one through yes again what was wrong with saved bit quantized rasterized images bit jpegs jpeg not designed for that said the last post jpeg compression algorithm way saving disk space trading off quality against compression fail see what the problem you have not proposed any workable alternatives also human expect that bit will saved bit image speak for yourself you are the only person have met spoken who having quantised bit image down bits expects this process somehow reverse when the file saved keeping all modificvations that heve been made the bit image palette perhaps that why you yused the singular say person would like crop part the image and save then expected that the image still the same look next time you import bit image into look carefully the main control panel tells you how many colours have been allocated the bit image makes abundantly clear that you are not editing the original bit file you are the only person who claims this confusing were designed without thinking about human interface and how human expect the program work design error design error the same bug read lips program for viewing and modifying bit images lets you import other images shows would say good deal thought about the human interface and everyone else seems use happily for the purpose was designed for makes false claims have heard were designed first for bit images files but were not good idea take full bit images without making major change the original design you would come with solid logical well argued and lucid description precisely how these proposed extensions would work feel free post them far you have not done even all screen images are bit the processed images and saved images could have been bit very easily instead bit argh after all this comment like that very easily ahead and code easy alternatively look the terms import and non reversible transformation before anybody will make note yes may well make lift where means that the lift goes down and down means that the lift goes and put note this design solution the manuals however even the manuals tells the correct situation doesn solve the problem americans the lift just example think this bit exageration what you are actually saying you got into lift elevator you are the states and mistakenly pressed the down button everyone else had problem now you are trying sue the manufacturer well text may bit hard reading you bet hopefully you suggeeded read mostly leaving aside the language issue however betrays some very wooly thinking you yourself admit which the same any language think some more chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester internet lilley mcc voice fax janet lilley mcc
comp.graphics	drivers for diamond viper card been away for couple weeks and have become out touch with the latest information the diamond viper card does anyone know diamond has come out with any vesa driver updates lately also was wondering what the latest windows driver version now thanks advance dan daniel hotopp internet hotopp ami bwi wec com antenna microwave integration vax tron hotopp ami westinghouse electric corp voice
comp.graphics	lcd vga display only had the computer for about months that reasonable life cycle for lcd display toshiba lcd cga died months replaced under the month warranty fortunately when died died instantly and completely
comp.graphics	surface contour plot ultrix plot surfaces and contour plots from set would really appreciate any hint the name such plotting program and where find thanks for your help
comp.graphics	full color image editor for sgi workstations happy announce the first public release the bit program interactive full color image viewer and editor based sgi besides typical touchup tasks such crop rotate smooth etc bit offers some unique features not available similar programs such text and vector support and the separation text and image the following the relevant sections from the man page pre release may bit name bit bitmap image touchup for sgi workstations description bit interactive full color image viewer and editor based silicon graphics full color program bit handles images both bits and color index natural and efficient manner image viewer bit allows list images displayed their original type bits color index any order and any the many built styles display you can walk and down the list using mouse and keyboard you can let bit the walk for you the slideshow with the pan and zoom features large images can viewed full without being limited the window screen size image editor bit performs large number image editing and processing tasks accurately and efficiently keeps information loss any stage the editing process absolute minimum performing subpixel sampling automatically while conserving the input image type whenever possible avoid unnecessary promotion and quantization input images you can also cut piece image and paste into another addition arbitrarily colored and sized text and simple geometric figures can rendered top image for annotation with the option make them part the bitmap output separately take advantage the higher printer resolutions postscript bit can also used graphical user interface many existing image processing programs defining external bindings which essence turn command line oriented programs into bit subfunctions and can accessed press button and best all the processed image will read back and displayed immediately convolution using exter nally defined matrices arbitrary order can performed dynamically giving great flexibility processing image features bit performs all its image manipulations interactively with continuous progress report and once the processing complete the processed image will displayed current features include rotates image arbitrary angle with the option anti aliasing and filling the rotated out region with arbitrary color scales image arbitrary factors and directions with the option subpixel sampling renders text arbitrary color size orientation top image with the option rendering directly into the raster saving the text and raster separately such into postscript file take advantage higher printer resolution besides normal text strings many predefined special symbols can input conveniently tex alpha small beta produces greek alphabet alpha followed slightly smaller greek alphabet beta presents graphically the histogram image performs arbitrary pixel transformation the transformation function can specified interactively and can arbitrary forms further the transformation can applied rgb channels separately simultaneously and the entire image portion many difficult tasks such thresholding can accomplished rather easily transformation combination with the avai lability graphical histograms the image places simple geometric figures sgfs arrows circles trian gles etc arbitrary color size and orientation into image arbitrary locations addressed either absolute pixels some user definable coordinate system units with the option rendering directly into the raster save the sgfs and raster separately postscript file all sgfs can scaled and directions independently simultaneously this how get ellipse from circle performs edge detection combination with image histograms and transformation very accurate result can obtained performs histogram equalization performs convolution with externally defined square matrices arbitrary order crops rectangular portion image cuts and pastes across images magnifies any portion image any amount displays list images sequence with user specifiable pause interval between images slideshow measures rgb intensities pixel any location all pixels along arbitrary line with the result presented rgb intensities intensity distance plot performs image type conversions converts image formats smoothes image special convolution filters image external programs and read the filtered image back and display modify individual pixel rgb values performs fft the entire image portion and display the resulting power spectra spray and brush paint full color unavailable this pre release supported formats iris rgb native sgi iris jpeg jfif format compuserv gif pnm portable any map including ppm pgm and pbm xbm window bitmap tiff postscript write only hardware requirements any sgi workstation that supports rgbmode including indigoes where get anonymous ftp monte svec edu pub bit bitxxx tar where xxx the version number current version read src readme for installation instructions after unpacking acknowledgement jpeg support based the independent jpeg groups library version forms library developed mark overmars used for gui both jpeg and forms library are included this release bit the program you will ever need view and annotate images the built editing features will satisfy most your editing needs addition the external filter and dynamical kernel will utilize any program you already have try and you will like always any comments bug reports are welcome
comp.graphics	stop this argument bit was make your stop stop stop stop this argument getting silly now handles bit images without quantizing them all these arguments are moot null and void please stop quibbling about now obsolete version the program besides you can now generate tons verbiage about the new shareware licensing uses instead mike mike ressler infrared photon jockey ressler cougar jpl nasa gov less science dead guys dos dos windoze dos linux finally getting something useful done with pet
comp.graphics	giant software yardsale software retail sale price graphics corel draw aldus photo styler image color photo finish these image scan paint image full pack picture publisher image prep snap pro images inc publisher paintbrush deluxe paint enchance softtype font workshop vista pro optibase workshop gfa cad utilities tree gold for win tnt anti virus salvation amish utilities multimedia smart text music clips audio tracks spinnaker plus mac spinnaker plus ask multi media make your point madison ave interface mac sound effects music bytes tempra show storyboard plus programming windows dev kit full windows maker pro top speed modula business the art negotiating telemagic full impact mac approach database ascend games nfl pro league football eco saurus hardware modem baud assorted joysticks willows vga amiga trac ball misc the wedding planner software yard sale fri sat sun mail pbenson cscihp ecst csuchico edu location nunneley paradise phone terms cash check charge visa accepted
comp.graphics	make your mind was problems article apr nessie mcc lilley cgu mcc chris lilley writes true bit you would come with solid logical well argued and lucid description precisely how these proposed extensions would work feel free post them don mind someone who would love see bit this would plenty for can load bit image and display all bit glory bit displays all other operations crop dither smooth etc are not supported bit images how hard would this ken fishkin fishkin xerox com
comp.graphics	anyone know use rayshade out there fineman stein washington edu twixt your toes writes using rayshade the computers here and like input from other users and perhaps swap some ideas could post uuencoded gifs here ray code anyone interested having trouble coming with colors that are metallic brass steel from the rgb values sorry not rayshade user but hey looks like this group could use some traffic guess that metallic isn color the rgb sense rather matter how the surface reflects light not sure what property metallic materials have that makes them recognizable such but pretty sure any color material can look metallic
comp.graphics	spline fit does anyone out there know site that might have spline fit routine useful for interpolation thanks for any help craig morioka craig cognet ucla edu
comp.graphics	what someone please fill what thanks
comp.graphics	sci files and sco files article apr daimi aau rued daimi aau writes hello there week ago guy asked what sco file was character regards rued yes why alex kiernan akiernan falcon demon
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance silly rak crosfield richard kirk writes the number legs centipede now you know that the number left legs both left and right dave bushong wang laboratories inc amateur radio callsign project leader recognition products ary noca internet dbushong wang com
comp.graphics	looking for info quadratic spline bezier conversion looking for algorithm pointers any papers how convert quadratic splines cubic splines beizeirs source available the public domain please let know thanks very much krishnan seetharaman mail kseethar ulowell edu phone snail mail department computer science umass lowell lowell
comp.graphics	mode does anyone know how access and display multiple pages mode while still maintaining the byte per pixel memory organization examples assembly would appreciated thanks scott
comp.graphics	viewing jpeg files there are jpeg viewers that are windows based and therefore need hardware specific drivers beyond those provided windows got mine from the library congress connection with their online exhibit books from the vatican library see previous message this newgroup about that gerald edgar gwe atc boeing com the opinions expressed this not may not represent those his employer
comp.graphics	looking for hot mac anim software mxp news udel edu stern brahms udel edu garland stern writes interested finding animation programs for the mac especially interested any programs that don exist port and are good that they would make buy mac any such exist thanks advance howdy think you would interested infini for the mac there dos windows version quite amazing program some the features bevel text timeline based animation sequencer realtime bounding box preview object linking phong shading ray tracing bounding box shading wireframe shading ghourad shading flat shading anti aliasing none low medium high environment maps quicktime support wrap movie around object procedural surfaces composed surfaces for layering surfaces alpha channel support import eps dxf and swivel files export dxf and swivel files spline based animation animation assistant for creating smooth movements and other stuff object morphing surfaces and bevels morph too and lots more that can remember right now anyway not expensive some the other animation rendering packages think you can get for around from macwarehouse they also have educational discounts well hope that helps bit see brendan duddridge internet umduddr ccu umanitoba america online brendand
comp.graphics	acm siggraph and acm general article apr koko csustan edu rsc altair csustan edu steve cunningham writes and siggraph has not skipped town preparing the best siggraph conference yet speaking siggraph just went through the ordeal annual registration for siggraph and upping membership the acm last night and was ever grossed out the new prices for membership are almost highway robbery for example siggraph basic fee went from last year this year for the same thing increase those facile enough arrange trip the annual conference could reduce this selecting siggraph lite which means siggraph charging additional for the proceedings and the art show catalog essentially toplas went cost way outstripping the current inflation rate basic sigchi fees remainded the same but whereas before sigchi membership included uist and human factors conferences proceedings these are now extra cost option bundling that back into the basic rate equivalent services have gone cost sigois membership cost has but they also split out the computer supported cooperative work conference proceedings that used included with membership adding that cost back means this sig also has doubled its membership fee what really galls that the acm sent out brochures couple months ago touting their new approach providing member services and tried make sound like they were offering new services but with the exception couple like siggraph all the plus services appear just splitting the costs into smaller piles that they don look big but their recommended changes membership would have paying more than last year for increase services measured cost not value and curiously inflation rate the publications got last year anyone out there galled this extortion robert reed home animation ltd robert slipknot rain com first court west linn shooting yourself the foot various languages and systems motif you spend days writing uil description your foot the trajectory the bullet and the intricate scrollwork the ivory handles the gun when you finally get around pulling the trigger the gun jams
comp.graphics	corel draw harvard draw larry landwehr larry ducktales med com wrote wife wants publish newsletter she artist she intends use comercial clipart and customise bit drawing circle box around etc have mspublisher for manipulating text but not suitable for doing much with graphics she needs more specialised tool right now she looking corel draw and harvard draw there seem more books the stores corel than harvard she inclined with corel the basis popularity can anyone give informed opinion which package would more suitable there even better alternative available this faq please withhold the flames and just send the location the faq document thanks with coreldraw pcmag just did review couple issues ago and adobe illustrator and coreldraw were picked the best three use clip art from harvard draw whatever for commercial purposes other two deleted far know okay you have read the licence agreement that comes with the package sure tmc tmc spartan brocku
comp.graphics	company info for graphics software within the next several months looking for job computer graphics software need info graphics software companies checked the faq the resource list and siggraph org haven found anything the last computer graphics career handbook that aware was published has list companies but tremendously specific information any them can people please steer towards more current and depth informational resources thanks post summary there interest brandon the opinions expressed are not necessarily those the university north carolina chapel hill the campus office for information technology the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu
comp.graphics	gif targa krzysztof muchorowski was asking about gif tga conversion that could use dta convert the tga files fli animation files krzysztof update your copy dta more recent release the current later versions dta can read gif files dkm
comp.graphics	universal vesa driver some time ago about month there was bit discussion about universal vesa driver for bit cards was the file uvesa zip well can find does anyone know where gorilla something something and what sort cards works for also would pushing luck ask for someone post some appropriate group kingsley turner nsw australia
comp.graphics	message for cgcad bart inescn sunil gupta ssg brunel wrote cant get through the author rtrace his site inaccessible can upload the new version somewhere else please problem solved its wuarchive graphics graphics ray rtrace why does seg fault often
comp.graphics	real heard friend who just return from nab from las vegas confirm that realsoft will releasing windows version real this summer was told that the rendering speed the isn fast however was also told that they are switching from microsoft watcom gain more speed for people who looking for powerful animation software for the wait shouldn too long real absolutely the most powerful and flexible package out there that sells for less than heard indigo version also under development
comp.graphics	source create fli flc does anyone know the source available create fli flc animations would ideally like dll for windows but would settle for source heard they might available amiga forums somewhere the libraries currently distributed autodesk aawin aaplay not have fli creation capability only playback any pointers would appreciated thanks andrew hudson abh genesis nred
comp.graphics	video speed using ibm with eisa and local bus and need get local bus video card the only hitch that need one that will allow the fastest anims flics from ram have megs ram meg simms using studio from autodesk and imagine from impulse they both write out the flc format does anyone know what would the best card for showing fast anims from ram like the orchid diamond stealth viper ati etc any help would appreciated trying circumvent the single frame route email trb msstate edu just post back here thanks
comp.graphics	what has happened dkb trearn david drum writes listserv told that the list doesn exist got global list groups from the listserv and nothing grepped every string could think frank ville saari andre beck anyone else who regular dkb can tell what going please just sent mail turgut kalfaoglu the maintainer the list and asked him what going the list for whatever reason really dead might have put list ourselves but for now want wait for his answer frank and just thought this would just another period silence
comp.graphics	help quicktime system problem unable run quicktime iivx running system and don know why there better group post this please let know quicktime works fine but when try run movie any application that supports like simple player canvas word get the message sorry system error occurred application unimplemented trap continue restart press continue and get the application unknown has unexpectedly quit because error type occurred substitute simple player canvas word for application and the messages are always the same restart with quicktime have problems any suggestions loss thanks advance yah please email don check the newsgroups very often dan bradley deb uxa cso uiuc edu
comp.graphics	fractal terrain generator does anyone know fractal terrain generator for mac something could hopefully import into program like swivel stratavision know infini has built capabilities but don have access infini downloaded two programs from umich graphics fractals but both were from and crashed under system think they were black and white anyway please email you know anything don check the newsgroups very often thanks advance dan bradley deb uxa cso uiuc edu
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic great many computer programmers read dobb journal recent issue there was paragraph article that pained greatly read said there nothing wrong microsoft setting the standards for the computer industry the industry needs ibm for the where has the hacker ethic gone not the cracker ethic which something entirely different and bad but the hacker ethic which tells value the free distribution information and yield the hands imperative why that people and corporations like bill gates ibm and intel are able have virtual dead lock the computer industry why that person like myself posts messages usenet how get into the little nooks crannies and idiosyncrasies computer system they are not given any useful information those who know just badmouthing are completely ignored why that people like steve jobs have abandon their efforts make truly innovative products ask those you who call yourselves hackers why this and further how can you let fact that the computer industry has changed the world and shall continue for long time come has allowed the propagation information volume unheard even twenty years ago and has made this world even smaller than was before shudder think what that world will like the corporations are allowed have their way perpetuating more drivel like the windows and the ibm product line the computer using public that not say against business per people who profit off innovative intelligent creative designs not bother fact applaud that the american way but those who manage sell kludgy uncreative systems the public and profit off them are the ones who are the problem and unfortunately because they have enough money make for blunt stupidity they can keep doing for very long time put you thus where has the hacker ethic gone still exists where and does exist why are those who call themselves hackers allowing this perpetuate itself why are they not creating new innovative interesting ideas stop the sos from maintaining its choke hold the computer industry await with interest what will probably resounding silence pstlb acad alaska edu revenge dish best served cold szechuan death khan singh star trek the wrath khan
comp.graphics	lcd vga display mike mattone mike mik uky edu wrote has anyone else experienced anything like this this just means that need replace the screen then guess have but thought that the death lcd screen would little less dramatic when eventually happened didn want take repaired before asked the net about this because already know what they say yep you gotta have this replaced and gonna cost you only had the computer for about months only that long time echoing above posting the way the market going nowadays your machine obsolete two weeks before you buy sounds like you have sink some money into for repair but that sometimes necessary for equipment that reasonable life cycle for lcd display think months with nothing wrong until now quite reasonable you had bought compaq toshiba you might have reasonably expected the machine last longer before something went wrong but that moot point perhaps sandy santra trevor netcom com berkeley california trevor well
comp.graphics	lcd vga display article bab llt vcd com edmoore vcd com moore writes only had the computer for about months that reasonable life cycle for lcd display toshiba lcd cga died months replaced under the month warranty fortunately when died died instantly and completely worked support for while company and had problems with several toshiba short space time they were all around years old some screens went completely above others were just dodgy this happened about out maybe they were fairly reliable then and don think was special problem with tosh link the company would think that months may not unreasonable just unlucky regards kate kate kingman cstxqbe dcs warwick leave the typos the tall blonde esudb csv warwick occupy all the bored people out there
comp.graphics	creating fli flc animation files looking for means add fli and flc animation creation windows application was hoping for something along the lines aawin aaplay autodesk but for the creation these delta compressed animations have flilib but this seems coded for the large memory model dos with turbo ideally would like dll medium model object library but would settle for anything really seen other windows apps with fli flc creation did they hack the flilib code into submission any pointers would appreciated please send mail directly and will summarize the results there interest andrew hudson abh genesis nred
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic article may aurora alaska edu pstlb aurora alaska edu writes put you thus where has the hacker ethic gone still exists where and does exist why are those who call themselves hackers allowing this perpetuate itself why are they not creating new innovative interesting ideas stop the sos from maintaining its choke hold the computer industry how about the gnu people handing out very good free software also distributed two decent sized programs myself the player fumiko ftp washington edu and the genetic neural network programmer cerebrum somewhere out there only had time write these programs because scholarships and grants the intended benefit society loophole the system peter dudey kyu lisp subguru order the golden parentheses finger reformed church james eric the half bee dipped curry shadowy flight into the dangerous world man who does not exist please mail plastic spaceships state salem
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic where did the hacker ethic hackers the and are now comfortably employed and supporting families the next generation takes the radical lead now don look for radicalism among old ones gone grady netcom com
comp.graphics	avs presentation university toronto instructional and research computing sponsoring technical presentation visualization software thursday may sandford fleming building room advanced visual systems will present this technical seminar avs the world leading visualization software package avs point and click module driven easy use product that produces full color two three dimensional rendered scenes for interactive observation supported all current unix risc platforms from sun sgi ibm and dec also runs under dec vms avs its fourth year the street and very mature all fields science engineering medicine and even business applications now use avs this seminar will focus its many features technical detail during half hour slide presentation following question period there will live demonstration using sun sparcstation addition new avs program called campus will introduced this meeting also discussed will the international avs center which provides line repository over graphics modules the north carolina supercomputer center raliegh avs has imbedded tools write one own customized modules should these not available with avs from avs international the scheduled speaker for this presentation paul ecklund ecklund associates the distributor avs canada
comp.graphics	adobe photo shop type software for unix motif platforms article world std com sci image processing comp graphics wdm world std com wayne michael writes have been searching for quality image enhancement and manipulation package for unix motif platforms that comparable adobe photo shop for the mac stuff deleted understand that adobe working making photoshop available for the sgi indigo but that just rumor and wouldn bet until see but they are going release illustrator for the sgi real soon now charles boesel diablo creative pro for and con against cboesel diablo holonet net then what the opposite progress work what else congress
comp.graphics	make your mind was problems article apr nessie mcc lilley mcc writes allows this feature but don recommend use with the mentioned type images now see thew problem first you want extend allow editing bit previews bit images then point out problems with this now you are saying there problem because you personally happen not use those parts the program that cause the problem see previous article this debate for the rests can see agree with view cases you don even say personal opinion above doesn mean that not most obvious thing please you use previous writings contradicting argument please read them you have not saw them all you just refered text from which wrote something and you make hard decisions from that without reading what exactly have written really hard read when one writes reply line line method and don understand include previously written material with the new sentences give them meaning you seem one such you also start replying articles even you don understand what going you ask repeatedly decsribe views what were wrong with even posted them within the article you did reply believe not nice get flamed specially when know that you have not read article carefully the first place and jpeg faq and users have written agree with the places you didn sure you just didn undertand what about wrote can blame writing skills english for that better stop the discussion and check what new ideas gives allready mailed one bradley juhana kouhia
comp.graphics	fractal terrain generator deb uxa cso uiuc edu daniel bradley writes does anyone know fractal terrain generator for mac something could hopefully import into program like swivel stratavision know infini has built capabilities but don have access infini downloaded two programs from umich graphics fractals but both were from and crashed under system think they were black and white anyway please email you know anything don check the newsgroups very often thanks advance dan bradley deb uxa cso uiuc edu yes have written something that creates meshed fractal terrain surfaces for exactly the purpose you require importing into modelling packages warned the data content high and brings many packages their knees use primarily for microstation but exports dxf well other formats you should you can get from ftp mirror site the wuarchive wustl edu stuff located the mirrors architec directory please ftp the readme file first paul bourke school architecture property planning pdbourke ccu auckland the university auckland private bag fax auckland new zealand paul bourke school architecture property planning pdbourke ccu auckland the university auckland private bag fax auckland new zealand
comp.graphics	direct acess video memory looking for information how directly manipulate video memory have application that would like use this for because much faster than going through the bios know that video memory ispart the system area above the first guess looking find out exactly what section memory and how layed out thanks regards gordon rogers gnr psuvm psu edu void signature void
comp.graphics	there ftp achive for usgs terrain data article apr welchgate welch jhu edu danj welchgate welch jhu edu dan jacobson writes lot interesting stuff about gopher deleted you never heard gopher don worry free and the net write note you like information how get started best luck dan jacobson danj welchgate welch jhu edu heard but lost the intro posting that came out while back could you post again think general interest ben ben olasov olasov columbia edu
comp.graphics	universal vesa driver kintur scorch apana org kingsley turner writes some time ago about month there was bit discussion about universal vesa driver for bit cards was the file uvesa zip well can find does anyone know where gorilla something something and what sort cards works for also would pushing luck ask for someone post some appropriate group kingsley turner nsw australia host swdsrv edvz univie location dos graphics file mar uvesa zip host plaza aarnet edu location micros garbo screen file apr uvesa zip location micros oak graphics file mar uvesa zip host godzilla cgl rmit location kjb mgl file mar uvesa zip host nic switch location mirror msdos graphics file mar uvesa zip location software simtel graphics file mar uvesa zip host ipc rvs uni hannover location pub msdos koeln graphics egavga file apr uvesa zip host sun urz uni heidelberg location pub msdos simtel graphics file mar uvesa zip host athene uni paderborn location pcsoft msdos graphics file mar uvesa zip host compute ncsu edu location mirrors wustl mirrors msdos graphics file mar uvesa zip host rigel acs oakland edu location pub msdos graphics file mar uvesa zip host usl edu location pub msdos video and graphics file mar uvesa zip host isfs kuis kyoto location mirrors simtel msdos graphics file mar uvesa zip file mar uvesa zip host ftp net location systems ibmpc msdos simtel graphics file mar uvesa zip lance norskog thinman netcom com data not information not knowledge not wisdom
comp.graphics	graphics software company info within few months looking for job computer graphics software need info companies that there nothing any the faq for this group and nothing siggraph org least couldn find anything the last computer graphics career handbook was dated had info companies but nothing specific any them can people please direct towards more current and detailed sources information post summary sources there interest also could you please mail our news server the fritz thanks brandon the opinions expressed are not necessarily those the university north carolina chapel hill the campus office for information technology the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu
comp.graphics	graphics software company info believe many people will happy have this information please post the comp graphics thanks changyaw
comp.graphics	adobe photo shop type software for unix motif platforms article diablo uucp diablo uucp cboesel charles boesel writes article world std com sci image processing comp graphics wdm world std com wayne michael writes have been searching for quality image enhancement and manipulation package for unix motif platforms that comparable adobe photo shop for the mac stuff deleted understand that adobe working making photoshop available for the sgi indigo but that just rumor and wouldn bet until see but they are going release illustrator for the sgi real soon now charles boesel diablo creative pro for and con against cboesel diablo holonet net then what the opposite progress work what else congress was adobe seminar conference propaganda forum whatever you want call couple months ago where they announced that display postscript was going included the next release sun presumably solaris sun was going drop their development newsprint and return for this adobe was going port illustrator and photoshop sun other than the articles that appeared the trade journals immediately after haven heard peep about hope still the works david farley the university chicago library east street jrl dgf midway uchicago edu chicago illinois
comp.graphics	need recommendations imaging workstations need recommendations imaging workstations minimum have the following requirements high resolution graphics black and white for display fax images support the display multiple simulataneous windows fax image emulation window ibm host etc high speed network interface for image data etc token ring ethernet etc mouse any information experience would appreciated thanks car
comp.graphics	looking for polygon convexifier does anyone know where can find code which would take concave polygons and break them into set convex polygons also would like code algorithms this fact interested sources for code and algorithms that convert graphical objects into other graphical objects that will render into the same image bezier curves splines splines circular arc segments splines polgons etc michael dillon internet mpdillon halcyon halcyon com powerhouse fidonet armstrong voice canada bbs
comp.graphics	wanna scan bit colr picture bit color dpi fladbed scanner can the job for you gif tiff pcx bmp interested please write imagesyz aol com
comp.graphics	need specs for mpeg mpg file format looking for the specs for the mpg files that are floating around the alt binaries pictures groups the net please lemme know where can obtain the spec email thanks much james murray add sciences sdsu edu
comp.graphics	easy translate jpeg code article rfsqbinnc shelley washington edu stusoft hardy washington edu stuart denman writes does anyone out there have any jpeg decompression code pretty much any language that can read and understand have trouble understanding the jpeg group code that got from ftp site any one can send some good code will appreciate lot thanks the problem that the process inherently complicated the ijg code pretty good you ask and have watched through many many cycles revision try getting good book the subject that will explain the algorithms specifically jpeg still image compression standard pennebaker mitchell vnr isbn btw presume your comment about good code wasn meant sound offensive does david clunie dclunie pax tpa com
comp.graphics	ftp site for pov files know this has been asked million time but what was the ftp site carrying zips full pov source files including jack zip and kettle zip once been there but unfortunately lost the address little hurry with please mail jtheinon kruuna helsinki thanks jarkko
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic article gradyc awe netcom com grady netcom com writes where did the hacker ethic hackers the and are now comfortably employed and supporting families the next generation takes the radical lead now don look for radicalism among old ones gone and guess who here your place please finger xyzzy gnu mit edu for information you are mail news only site mail xyzzy gnu mit edu with the subject line send finger daniel drucker sxx xyzzy gnu mit edu forever forever coda und dzd vaxc hofstra edu
comp.graphics	jpeg fif specification recently got document describing the jpeg fif jfif file format was looking thru but didn get the idea how determine the size pic pixel without decoding the whole image how you get the height and width jpeg jfif how you determine wether color greyscale picture wrote small tool lsgif for gif that returns the filesize picture size and color resolution analizing the header chunks the output looks like this bla gif use this lsgif create index files archive and since jpeg are getting more and more popular would like have similar tool for jfif with output like this bla jpg please respond email because don read this news group very often post summary useful thanx advance larry lars larry michael gif murphy law lars itu sun can wrong will lsmichae informatik uni erlangen spec stud univ stellenbosch south afrika ham grad stud univ erlangen nuremberg germany irc pit
comp.graphics	fractint speedstar still looking for fractint drivers new release which supports the bit color mode the diamond speedstar there are some and million colros drivers but none work with the any help would appreciated thanks chad new sea world ohio chad cipiti shark cipiti bobcat ent ohiou edu encounter make contact cleveland freenet edu
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic perhaphs what bill gates and steve jobs are now the result the natural evolution successful hacker either you make money jail lee feldenstein just fade away that uncle and who really likes computers what computer hacker and does will change long the definition the word computer continues change james murray add sciences sdsu edu
comp.graphics	there ftp achive for usgs terrain data article columbia edu olasov columbia edu benjamin olasov writes article apr welchgate welch jhu edu danj welchgate welch jhu edu dan jacobson writes lot interesting stuff about gopher deleted you never heard gopher don worry free and the net write note you like information how get started best luck dan jacobson danj welchgate welch jhu edu heard but lost the intro posting that came out while back could you post again think general interest ben ben olasov olasov columbia edu this heavily edited modified version the gopher faq intended give people just starting with gopher enough information get client and jump into gopher space complete version can obtained described below once you have gopher client point merlot welch jhu edu and welcome gopher space dan jacobson danj welchgate welch jhu edu common questions and answers about the internet gopher client server protocol for making world wide information service with many implementations posted comp infosystems gopher comp answers and news answers every two weeks the most recent version this faq can gotten through gopher via anonymous ftp rtfm mit edu pub usenet news answers gopher faq those without ftp access should send mail mail server rtfm mit edu with send usenet news answers finding sources the body find out how ftp mail list questions the gopher faq what gopher where can get gopher software what need access gopher where are there publicly available logins for gopher who develops gopher software what the relationship between gopher and wais www ftp are papers articles describing gopher available what veronica what available for biology what gopher the internet gopher client server provides distributed information delivery system around which world campus wide information system cwis can readily constructed while providing delivery vehicle for local information gopher facilitates access other gopher and information servers throughout the world where can get gopher software via anonymous ftp boombox micro umn edu look the directory pub gopher what need access gopher you will need gopher client program that runs your local workstation there are clients for the following systems the directory following the name the location the client the anonymous ftp site boombox micro umn edu the directory pub gopher unix curses emacs pub gopher unix gopher tar xwindows athena pub gopher unix xgopher tar xwindows motif pub gopher unix moog xwindows xview pub gopher unix xvgopher macintosh hypercard pub gopher macintosh turbogopher old versions macintosh application pub gopher macintosh turbogopher dos clarkson driver pub gopher client nextstep pub gopher next cms pub gopher rice cms pub gopher viegopher vms pub gopher vms pub gopher mvs pub gopher mvs many other clients and servers have been developed others the following attempt comprehensive list microsoft windows winsock client the gopher book sunsite unc edu pub micro stuff windows winsock goph tbk zip macintosh application macgopher ftp utah edu pub gopher macintosh another macintosh application gopherapp ftp bio indiana edu util gopher gopherapp port the unix curses client for dos with tcp oac hsc uth tmc edu public dos misc dosgopher exe port the unix curses client for nfs bcm tmc edu nfs gopher exe beta version the gopher client for novell lan workplace for dos lennon itn med umich edu dos gopher vms decwindows client for use with wollongong ucx job acs ohio state edu xgopher client share note these macintosh clients require mactcp most the above clients can also fetched via gopher client itself put the following gopher server type host boombox micro umn edu port path name gopher software distribution point your gopher client boombox micro umn edu port and look the gopher directory there are also number public telnet login sites available the university minnesota operates one the machine consultant micro umn edu see for more information about this recommended that you run the client software instead logging into the public telnet login sites client uses the custom features the local machine mouse scroll bars etc local client also faster where are there publicly available logins places telnet order get taste gopher for gopher here short list use the site closest you minimize network lag telnet public logins hostname login area consultant micro umn edu gopher north america gopher uiuc edu gopher north america panda uiowa edu panda north america gopher sunet gopher europe info anu edu info australia gopher chalmers gopher sweden tolten puc gopher south america ecnet gopher ecuador gan ncc gopher japan recommended that you run the client software instead logging into the public login sites client uses the custom features the local machine mouse scroll bars etc and gives faster response furthermore many the basic features clients saving file your hard drive printing file local printer viewing images retrieving files from ftp sites etc are not available the telnet logins who develops gopher software gopher was originally developed april the university minnesota microcomputer workstation networks center help our campus find answers their computer questions has since grown into full fledged world wide information system used large number sites the world many people have contributed the project too numerous count the people behind the much the gopher software can reached via mail gopher boombox micro umn edu via paper mail internet gopher developers union minneapolis usa via fax what the relationship between gopher and wais www ftp gopher intimately intertwined with these two other systems shipped the unix gopher server has the capability search local wais indices query remote wais servers and funnel the results gopher clients query remote ftp sites and funnel the results gopher clients queried www world wide web clients either using built gopher querying using native http querying are papers articles describing gopher available gopher has whole chapter devoted the whole internet kroll reilly editors note great book out and buy bunch the internet passport northwestnet guide our world online jonathan kochmer and northwestnet published northwestnet bellevue isbn contact info passport nwnet net students guide unix harley hahn publisher mcgraw hill inc isbn other references include the internet gopher connexions july interop exploring internet gopherspace the internet society news you can subscribe the internet society news sending mail isoc nri reston the internet gopher protocol proceedings the twenty third ietf cnri section internet gopher proceedings canadian networking the internet gopher internet getting started sri international section tools help internet users discover line treasures computerworld july tcp network administration reilly balakrishan oct spigopher making spires databases accessible through the gopher protocol spires fall workshop chapel hill north carolina tomer information technology standards for libraries journal the american society for information science sept what veronica veronica very easy rodent oriented net wide index computerized archives veronica offers keyword search most gopher server menu titles the entire gopher web archie ftp archives veronica gopherspace veronica search produces menu gopher items each which direct pointer gopher data source because veronica accessed through gopher client easy use and gives access all types data supported the gopher protocol try veronica select from the other gophers menu minnesota gopher server point your gopher name veronica search menu items most gopherspace type port path veronica host futique scs unr edu what available for biology there incredible amount software data and information availble biologists now gopher here brief list the biological databases that you can search via gopher bdt tropical data base searches biotechnet buyers guide online catalogues for biology tel search protein data bank headers chlamydomonas genetics center crystallization database hgmp databases probes and primers museum paleontology type specimen index mycdb mycobacterium database search drosophila flybase indiana search genbank swiss prot pir pdb search aatdb arabidopsis thaliana database search acedb caenorhabditis elegans database search compoundkb metabolic compound database search databases welchlab vectors promoters nrl est omi search embl search genbank search genbank search genbank updates search limb search pir search pir keyword species search prosite search rebase restriction enzyme database search swiss prot search tfd search the elegans strain list search the dna database japan search the enzyme database search the graingenes database search the maize database cloning vectors plasmids phage etc epd eukaryotic promoter database est expressed sequence tag database human west expressed sequence tag database elegans kabat database proteins immunological interest nrl protein sequence structure database omim online mendelian inheritance man seqanalref sequence analysis bibliographic reference data ban search rebase restriction enzyme database search the enzyme database search the rodent section genbank database taxonomy genbank swiss prot retrieve full pdb entries accession number search for all researchers funded nih search for genome researchers funded doe search for researchers funded nsf search for researchers funded the usda mail addresses crystallographers mail addresses yeast reasearchers phonebooks around the world search and retrieve software for all computers search and retrieve macintosh software search and retrieve dos software search and retrieve gnu software search and retrieve software for biology search for agricultural software search and retrieve graphics software and data search and retrieve all online perl scripts ftp sites for biology archives for software and data and the list goes this just the beginning
comp.graphics	looking for polygon convexifier article rvpmc nwfocus com mpdillon halcyon com michael dillon writes does anyone know where can find code which would take concave polygons and break them into set convex polygons also would like code algorithms this although not offering code would like point out that any polygon triangulation code satisfies the task stated you want code partition polygon into the minimum number convex pieces doubt very much exists although algorithm known
comp.graphics	lcd vga display trevorc netcom com trevor netcom com sandy santra writes mike mattone mike mik uky edu wrote only had the computer for about months only that long time that reasonable life cycle for lcd display think months with nothing wrong until now quite reasonable you had bought compaq toshiba you might have reasonably expected the machine last longer before something went wrong but that moot point perhaps maybe had epson portable with backlit lcd since which still used daily and the screen that fine the only problem has and ever has had the arm the screen sorta lose and you bend fairly harshly the screen goes off until you wiggle round bit but other than that been perfect what that about months justin sullivan system administrator dialix services sydney modem justin sydney dialix perth
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic article pandora sdsu edu add sciences sdsu edu james murray writes perhaphs what bill gates and steve jobs are now the result the natural evolution successful hacker either you make money jail lee feldenstein just fade away that uncle and who really likes computers what computer hacker and does will change long the definition the word computer continues change perhaps you write freely available gpled unix for commonly available computer platforms machines and become catalyst for major netwide project which produces better unix like than many commercial counterparts see comp linux for details maybe you found legue for programming freedom fight restrictive litigation and software patenting practices thereby protecting the creative freedom vital continuing progress our field maybe you start gnu project and produce far and away the best compiler for unix there not mention other valuable utilities some hackers make significant contributions without selling out their ideals for bill gates after pawning grossly inferior software onto the market for ten years ever was hacker deserves have his name eradicated from the annals computer hackery for like running linux countless other packages without paying dime the other hand have problem purchasing motif other good software long microsoft hasn fouled with their inept input cents worth flames will patiently ignored jean jean liddle computer science illinois state university mail jliddle ilstu edu
comp.graphics	how can download files graphics how can find these files and graphics that people are downloading from their unix systems then how download them complete beginner this obviously please baby step through the process first all don see amongst these newsgroups where there anything remotely like gif tif compiled shareware program thanks advance for any information you can give know there unix command ftp that will allow this but first need know where find the file want download via ftp etc thomas helke egret wet uucp
comp.graphics	where can find someone who can digitize currier ives does anyone know any currier and ives etchings have been digitized for use desktop publishing particularly interested their riverboat scenes does anyone know who can get for fee good digitized river boat image thank you david dumas david dumas dmd isis msstate edu david dumas dmd isis msstate edu
comp.graphics	help needed dxf iff article apr news columbia edu cunixb columbia edu pei hsieh writes sorry this faq but are there any conversion utilities available for autodesk dxf amiga iff format checked the comp graphics faq and number sites but far banana please mail dxf can not changed over iff format what can changed object format used one the programs the amiga the only tools around are comercial for that conversion yury german blue knight bknight jpr com blue knight productions genie blue knight graphic design and video productions
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic from article may aurora alaska edu pstlb aurora alaska edu put you thus where has the hacker ethic gone still exists where and does exist why are those who call themselves hackers allowing this perpetuate itself why are they not creating new innovative interesting ideas stop the sos from maintaining its choke hold the computer industry since this was posted comp assume there angle this hacking what students when they really supposed doing something else thesis research write getting their supervisors pet programs run properly etc one gets much glory for hacking and one gets any money out producing good free software requires enormous investment time resources that not many people can want afford particularly during recession addition over the last years think there has been emphasis producing running programs research and greater emphasis more formal approaches problem solving students have been proving theorems instead writing programs conference year two ago johann kleer suggested that everyone should get back the keyboard and write more programs that demonstrate their ideas and have say inclined agree don claim superhacker but don think that invalidates remarks and sure this isn the whole story peter jackson dept electrical computer eng clarkson university opinions expressed are not those employer any other organization second violin fiddling firefighters ensemble rome branch
comp.graphics	help needed dxf iff article blue knight bknight jpr com blue knight bknight jpr com yury german writes article apr news columbia edu cunixb columbia edu pei hsieh writes sorry this faq but are there any conversion utilities available for autodesk dxf amiga iff format checked the comp graphics faq and number sites but far banana please mail dxf can not changed over iff format what can changed object format used one the programs the amiga the only tools around are comercial for that conversion hijaak claims convert dxf iff although hijaak claims some stuff that have never gotten work for example not long ago tried convert some iff files from amiga video toaster using crossdos could read the disks int targa files hijaak made some gorgeous megabyte targa files from the iffs all totally black mac mcdougald any opinions expressed herein the photography center are not necessarily actually univ tenn knoxville are almost certainly not those mac utkvx utk edu the university tennessee mac utkvx bitnet things are more like they are now fax than they ever been before
comp.graphics	tel for scanners needed hello all need make some torso scans and would like the phone numbers companies the midwest that make scans and the numbers companies that make the sanners cyberware does anyone have idea how much single scan costs and the best format save not sure what software platform will using probably either softimage wavefront think spline based format would best please forward the numbers personally having problems accessing usenet lately thanks advance patrick maun gab awiuni edvz univie paul
comp.graphics	make your mind was problems can load bit image and display all bit glory bit displays all other operations crop dither smooth etc are not supported bit images how hard would this not very you just type xloadimage getx instead
comp.graphics	modelers for unix could someone please post list good three modelers that will run sparc stations preferably cheap thanks richard rws virginia edu
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic where did the hacker ethic hackers the and are now comfortably employed and supporting families the next generation takes the radical lead now don look for radicalism among old ones gone perhaps all hackers have become ick professionals have noticed and associates progression from hackers computer professionals rather distasteful occurs when series things happen one ego outgrows one talent knowledge one financial situation takes precedence change priorities esp family possibly leading the hacker attitude makes the shift from fun work one vocation burns away the creativity needed for the hobby the biggest killer imo one dreams are sadly shattered the hard rocks society version reality without the dream the motivation dies without the motivation the effort seems useless another set problems stems from our children while most remember when there were several completely different computer systems our children are growing with just few choices msdos mac amiga and not enjoy the diversity did remember the great computer fallout the early eighties vividly was forced stop using skills developed for systems that were now dead the diversity systems before then allowed for widely divergent paradigms that period forced hackers continually learn new systems the attempt keep not mention that program was needed were forced most situations write ourselves commercial offering was just not available now our children are being taught the user mentality the number old timers dwindle are not being replaced the next generation kendall kendall sears krsear ulkyvx louisville edu programmer child development unit amiga department pediatrics currently running amigaos university louisville and supporting unix sys rev life game you play once order win you must make difference remember this not practice session
comp.graphics	what smithsonian institution ftp address does antone know the ftp address for the smithsonian institution where one can get digitized photographs etc please reply email pbenson cscihp ecst csuchico edu thanks paul benson
comp.graphics	companies involved with scientific visualization anyone has list companies doing data visualization software hardware would like hear from them thanks krs subramanian bell laboratories email krs research att com mountain murray hill
comp.graphics	help needed dxf iff blue knight bknight jpr com yury german writes dxf can not changed over iff format what can changed object format used one the programs the amiga the only tools around are comercial for that conversion actually iff format standard not picture file format sound file format but there exist several formats that use the iff standard the iff picture standard used mostly everybody form ilbm just ilbm the only iff specification know tddd which used imagine and predecessor turbo silver possible that some the other amiga packages use another iff spec but don know any lightwave will load tddd form believe christopher fury this space for rent cfury csugrad edu call quoteme for more information
comp.graphics	definition occlusion everyone don clearly understand occlusion computer graphics would you please give explanation btw what the difference between occluded surface and opaque surface thanks advance yeh usc
comp.graphics	what giinn names nerdc ufl edu lioness maple circa ufl edu writes someone please fill what thanks there review the latest wired magazine you may just want take trip the local bookstore and check out there some cool pics too haven read yet tell you more aaron hightower
comp.graphics	oak vga please needd vesa tsr simple look for vesa drivers vpic package many svga card supported look for your favorite bbs not tonight honey just received nuvotel prxfalken email teaser com pascal guillaumet teaser issy les moulineaux france
comp.graphics	jpeg image compression frequently asked questions archive name jpeg faq last modified may this faq article discusses jpeg image compression suggestions for additions and clarifications are welcome new since version april new version supports bit viewing for windows new versions dvpeg image alchemy for dos new versions image archiver pmview for new listing mgif for monochrome display ataris this article includes the following sections what jpeg why use jpeg when should use jpeg and when should stick with gif how well does jpeg compress images what are good quality settings for jpeg where can get jpeg software canned software viewers etc source code what all this hoopla about color quantization how does jpeg work what about lossless jpeg why all the argument about file formats how recognize which file format have and what about what about arithmetic coding does loss accumulate with repeated compression decompression what are some rules thumb for converting gif images jpeg sections are basic info that every jpeg user needs know sections are advanced info for the curious this article posted every weeks you can always find the latest version the news answers archive rtfm mit edu ftp fetch pub usenet news answers jpeg faq you don have ftp send mail mail server rtfm mit edu with body send usenet news answers jpeg faq many other faq articles are also stored this archive for more instructions use the archive send mail the same address with the words help and index quotes separate lines you don get reply the server may misreading your return address add line such path myname mysite specify your correct mail address reply what jpeg jpeg pronounced jay peg standardized image compression mechanism jpeg stands for joint photographic experts group the original name the committee that wrote the standard jpeg designed for compressing either full color gray scale digital images natural real world scenes does not work well non realistic images such cartoons line drawings jpeg does not handle black and white bit per pixel images nor does handle motion picture compression standards for compressing those types images are being worked other committees named jbig and mpeg respectively jpeg lossy meaning that the image you get out decompression isn quite identical what you originally put the algorithm achieves much its compression exploiting known limitations the human eye notably the fact that small color details aren perceived well small details light and dark thus jpeg intended for compressing images that will looked humans you plan machine analyze your images the small errors introduced jpeg may problem for you even they are invisible the eye useful property jpeg that the degree lossiness can varied adjusting compression parameters this means that the image maker can trade off file size against output image quality you can make extremely small files you don mind poor quality this useful for indexing image archives making thumbnail views icons etc etc conversely you aren happy with the output quality the default compression setting you can jack the quality until you are satisfied and accept lesser compression why use jpeg there are two good reasons make your image files smaller and store bit per pixel color data instead bit per pixel data making image files smaller big win for transmitting files across networks and for archiving libraries images being able compress mbyte full color file down kbytes makes big difference disk space and transmission time you are comparing gif and jpeg the size ratio more like four one more details below your viewing software doesn support jpeg directly you have convert jpeg some other format for viewing manipulating images even with jpeg capable viewer takes longer decode and view jpeg image than view image simpler format gif for instance thus using jpeg essentially time space tradeoff you give some time order store transmit image more cheaply worth noting that when network phone transmission involved the time savings from transferring shorter file can much greater than the extra time decompress the file let you the arithmetic yourself the other reason why jpeg will gradually replace gif standard usenet posting format that jpeg can store full color information bits pixel million colors instead less fewer colors you have only bit display hardware then this may not seem like much advantage you within couple years though bit gif will look obsolete black and white macpaint format does today furthermore for reasons detailed section jpeg far more useful than gif for exchanging images among people with widely varying color display hardware hence jpeg considerably more appropriate than gif for use usenet posting standard when should use jpeg and when should stick with gif jpeg not going displace gif entirely for some types images gif superior image quality file size both one the first things learn about jpeg which kinds images apply rule thumb jpeg superior gif for storing full color gray scale images realistic scenes that means scanned photographs and similar material jpeg superior even you don have bit display hardware and lot superior you see section for details gif does significantly better images with only few distinct colors such cartoons and line drawings particular large areas pixels that are all exactly the same color are compressed very efficiently indeed gif jpeg can squeeze these files much gif does without introducing visible defects this sort image best kept gif form particular single color borders are quite cheap gif files but they should avoided jpeg files jpeg also has hard time with very sharp edges row pure black pixels adjacent row pure white pixels for example sharp edges tend come out blurred unless you use very high quality setting again this sort thing not found scanned photographs but shows fairly often gif files borders overlaid text etc the blurriness particularly objectionable with text that only few pixels high you have gif with lot small size overlaid text don jpeg computer drawn images ray traced scenes for instance usually fall between scanned images and cartoons terms complexity the more complex and subtly rendered the image the more likely that jpeg will well the same goes for semi realistic artwork fantasy drawings and such plain black and white two level images should never converted jpeg you need least about gray levels before jpeg useful for gray scale images should also noted that gif lossless for gray scale images levels while jpeg not you have existing library gif images you may wonder whether you should convert them jpeg you will lose little image quality you section which argues that jpeg image quality superior gif only applies both formats start from full color original you start from gif you already irretrievably lost great deal information jpeg can only make things worse however the disk space savings may justify converting anyway this decision you have make for yourself you convert gif library jpeg see section for hints prepared leave some images gif format since some gifs will not convert well how well does jpeg compress images pretty darn well here are some sample file sizes for image have handy full color image ship harbor the first three files are for comparison purposes the rest were created with the free jpeg software described section file size bytes comments ship ppm original file ppm format compression bits bytes per pixel plus few bytes overhead ship ppm ppm file passed through unix compress compress doesn accomplish lot you note other text oriented compressors give similar results ship gif converted gif with ppmquant ppmtogif most the savings the result losing color info gif saves bits pixel not see sec ship jpg cjpeg highest useful quality setting this indistinguishable from the bit original least nonprofessional eyeballs ship jpg cjpeg default setting you have look mighty darn close distinguish this from the original even with both screen once ship jpg cjpeg this has slight defects you know what look for you could tell been jpeged without seeing the original still good image quality many recent postings usenet pictures groups ship jpg cjpeg jpeg characteristic blockiness becomes apparent this setting djpeg blocksmooth helps some still seen plenty usenet postings that were poorer image quality than this ship jpg cjpeg optimize optimize cuts table overhead blocky but perfectly satisfactory for preview indexing purposes note that this file tiny the compression ratio from the original this case jpeg can make file that factor four five smaller than gif comparable quality the file every bit good the gif better you have full color display this seems typical ratio for real world scenes what are good quality settings for jpeg most jpeg compressors let you pick file size image quality tradeoff selecting quality setting there seems widespread confusion about the meaning these settings quality does not mean keep the information some have claimed the quality scale purely arbitrary not percentage anything the name the game using jpeg pick the lowest quality setting smallest file size that decompresses into image indistinguishable from the original this setting will vary from one image another and from one observer another but here are some rules thumb the default quality setting very often the best choice this setting about the lowest you can without expecting see defects typical image try first you see defects then except for experimental purposes never above saying will produce file two three times large but hardly any better quality the image was less than perfect quality begin with you might able down without objectionable degradation the other hand you might need higher quality setting avoid further degradation the second case seems apply much the time when converting gifs jpeg the default about right for compressing bit images but usually better for converting gifs see section for more info you want very small file say for preview indexing purposes and are prepared tolerate large defects setting the range about right may amusing art note the quality settings discussed this article apply the free jpeg software described section and many programs based other jpeg implementations such image alchemy may use completely different quality scale some programs don even provide numeric scale just high medium low style choices where can get jpeg software most the programs described this section are available ftp you don know how use ftp see the faq article how find sources you don have direct access ftp read about ftpmail servers the same article that article appears regularly news answers you can get sending mail mail server rtfm mit edu with send usenet news answers finding sources the body the anonymous ftp list faq may also helpful usenet news answers ftp list faq the news answers archive note this list changes constantly you have copy more than couple months old get the latest jpeg faq from the news answers archive you are looking for canned software viewers etc the first part this list system specific programs that only run one kind system you don see what you want for your machine check out the portable jpeg software described the end the list note that this list concentrates free and shareware programs that you can obtain over internet but some commercial programs are listed too windows shareware excellent viewer for jpeg gif and many other image formats can also format conversion and some simple image manipulations available for ftp from export lcs mit edu file contrib tar version major upgrade with support for bit displays and many other improvements however brand new and still has some bugs lurking you prefer not the bleeding edge stick with version also available from export note that version not good choice you have bit display you get only bit color nor for converting bit images jpeg but works fine for converting gif and other bit images jpeg caution there glitch version sure check the save normal size checkbox when saving jpeg file the file will blurry another good choice for windows john cristy free imagemagick package also available from export lcs mit edu file contrib imagemagick tar this package handles many image processing and conversion tasks the imagemagick viewer handles bit displays correctly for colormapped displays does better though slower color quantization than the basic free jpeg software both the above are large complex packages you just want simple image viewer try xloadimage xli xloadimage supports jpeg its latest release xloadimage free and available from export lcs mit edu file contrib xloadimage tar xli variant version xloadimage said its fans somewhat faster and more robust than the original the current xli indeed faster and more robust than the current xloadimage least with respect jpeg files because has the ijg decoder while xloadimage using hacked over the next xloadimage release will fix this xli also free and available from export lcs mit edu file contrib xli tar both programs are said the right thing with bit displays dos this covers plain dos for windows programs see the next headings one good choice eric praetzel free dvpeg which views jpeg and gif files the current version available ftp from sunee uwaterloo file pub jpeg viewers dvpeg zip this good basic viewer that works either machines the user interface not flashy but functional another freeware jpeg gif tga viewer mohammad rezaei hiview the current version available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics zip hiview requires better cpu and vcpi compatible memory manager qemm and max work windows and not hiview currently the fastest viewer for images that are bigger than your screen for larger images scales the image down fit the screen rather than using panning scrolling most viewers you may may not prefer this approach but there denying that slows down loading large images considerably note installation bit tricky read the directions carefully shareware alternative colorview for dos this easier install than either the two freeware alternatives its user interface also much spiffier looking although personally find harder use more keystrokes inconsistent behavior faster than dvpeg but little slower than hiview least hardware for images larger than screen size dvpeg and colorview seem about the same speed and both are faster than hiview the current version available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics dcview zip requires vesa graphics driver you don have one look vesadrv zip vesa tsr zip from the same directory many recent pcs have built vesa driver don try load vesa driver unless colorview complains that the driver missing second shareware alternative fullview which has been kicking around the net for while but don know any stable archive location for the current rather old version inferior the above viewers anyway the author tells that new version fullview will out shortly and will submitted the simtel archives that time the well known gif viewer compushow cshow supports jpeg its latest revision however cshow jpeg implementation isn very good slow about half the speed the above viewers and image quality poor except color displays too bad have been nice see good jpeg capability cshow shareware available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos gif cshw zip due the remarkable variety graphics hardware any one these viewers might not work your particular machine you can get any them work you need use one the following conversion programs convert jpeg gif then view with your favorite gif viewer you have color hardware don use gif the intermediate format try find targa capable viewer instead vpic reputed the right thing with color displays the independent jpeg group free jpeg converters are ftpable from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics jpeg zip jpeg zip you have and extended memory these files are dos compilations the free source code described section they will convert jpeg and from gif targa and ppm formats handmade software offers free jpeg gif conversion tools gif jpg jpg gif these are slow and are limited conversion and from gif format particular you can get bit color output from jpeg the major advantage these tools that they will read and write hsi proprietary jpeg format well the usenet standard jfif format since hsi format files are rather widespread bbses this useful capability version these tools free prior versions were shareware get from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics gif jpg zip note not use hsi format for files posted internet since not readable non platforms handmade software also has shareware image conversion and manipulation package image alchemy this will translate jpeg files both jfif and hsi formats and from many other image formats can also display images demo version image alchemy version available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics alch zip note about simtel the internet key archive site for related programs simtel full name wsmr simtel army mil simtel runs non unix system with weird directory names where this document refers directory msdos graphics simtel that really means msdos graphics you are not physically milnet you should expect rather slow ftp transfer rates from simtel there are several internet sites that maintain copies mirrors the simtel archives most ftp users should one the mirror sites instead popular usa mirror site oak oakland edu which keeps simtel files pub msdos graphics you have ftp capability you can retrieve files from simtel mail see informational postings comp archives msdos announce find out how you are outside the usa consult the same newsgroup learn where your nearest simtel mirror microsoft windows there are several windows programs capable displaying jpeg images windows viewers are generally slower than dos viewers the same hardware due windows system overhead note that you can run the dos conversion programs described above inside windows dos window the newest entry winecj which free and extremely fast version available from ftp rahul net file pub bryanw jpeg wecj zip requires windows and more colors mode this frills viewer with the bad habit hogging the machine completely while decodes and the image quality noticeably worse than other viewers but fast you use anyway least for previewing jview freeware fairly fast has good line help and can write out the decompressed image windows bmp format but can create new jpeg files and doesn view gifs jview also lacks some other useful features the shareware viewers such brightness adjustment but excellent basic viewer the current version available from ftp cica indiana edu file pub win desktop jview zip mirrors this archive can found some other internet sites including wuarchive wustl edu winjpeg shareware displays jpeg gif targa tiff and bmp image files can write all these formats too can used converter has some other nifty features including color balance adjustment and slideshow the current version available from simtel and mirror sites see note above file msdos windows winjp zip this slow compatible version you register you get the only version which roughly faster colorview another shareware entry this was early and promising contender but has not been updated some time and this point has real advantages over winjpeg you want try anyway the current version available from ftp cica indiana edu file pub win desktop cview zip understand that new version will appearing once the authors are finished with colorview for dos dvpeg see dos heading also works under windows but only full screen mode not window the following files are available from hobbes nmsu edu note check pub uploads for more recent versions the hobbes moderator not very fast about moving uploads into their permanent directories pub graphics jpegv zip bit version free ijg conversion programs version pub all graphics jpeg zip bit version same for pub graphics imgarc zip image archiver image conversion viewing with graphical interface strong conversion functions viewing bit weaker shareware pub graphics pmjpeg zip pmjpeg port winjpeg popular viewer for windows see description windows section shareware pub graphics pmview zip pmview jpeg gif bmp viewer gif viewing very fast jpeg viewing fast you have huge amounts ram otherwise about the same speed the above programs strong bit display support shareware macintosh most mac jpeg programs rely apple jpeg implementation which part the quicktime system extension you need have quicktime installed use quicktime you need better cpu and you need running system later you running system you must also install the bit quickdraw extension this built system you can get quicktime ftp from ftp apple com file dts mac quicktime quicktime hqx this file contains quicktime which better than several ways with respect jpeg marginally faster and considerably less prone crash when fed corrupt jpeg file however some applications seem have compatibility problems with mac users should keep mind that quicktime jpeg format pict jpeg not the same the usenet standard jfif jpeg format see section for details you post images usenet make sure they are jfif format most the programs mentioned below can generate either format the first choice probably jpegview free program for viewing images that are jfif format pict jpeg format gif format also can convert between the two jpeg formats the current version big improvement over prior versions get from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app jpeg view hqx requires system and quicktime bit displays jpegview usually produces the best color image quality all the currently available mac jpeg viewers jpegview can view large images much less memory than other mac viewers fact the only one that can deal with jpeg images much over pixels typical mac given large image jpegview automatically scales down fit the screen rather than presenting scroll bars like most other viewers you can zoom any desired portion though some people like this behavior some don overall jpegview user interface very well thought out gifconverter shareware image viewer converter supports jfif and pict jpeg well gif and several other image formats the latest version get from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac art gif gif converter hqx requires system later gifconverter not better than jpegview plain jpeg gif viewer but has much more extensive image manipulation and format conversion capabilities you may find worth its shareware fee you lot playing around with images also the newest version gifconverter can load and save jfif images without quicktime your best bet your machine too old run quicktime but faster with quicktime note gifconverter runs out memory trying load large jpeg try converting the file gif with jpeg convert then viewing the gif version jpeg convert mac version the free ijg jpeg conversion utilities available from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app jpeg convert hqx this will run any mac but only does file conversion not viewing you can use conjunction with any gif viewer previous versions this faq recommended imagery jpeg jpeg gif converter based old version the ijg code you are using this program you definitely should replace with jpeg convert apple free program pictpixie can view images jfif quicktime jpeg and gif format and can convert between these formats you can get pictpixie from ftp apple com file dts mac quicktime stuff pictpixie hqx requires quicktime pictpixie was intended developer tool and really not the best choice unless you like fool around with quicktime some its drawbacks are that requires lots memory produces relatively poor color image quality anything less than bit display and has relatively unfriendly user interface worse pictpixie unsupported program meaning has some minor bugs that apple does not intend fix there old version pictpixie called pictcompressor floating around the net you have this you should trash even buggier also the quicktime starter kit includes much cleaned descendant pictpixie called picture compressor note that picture compressor not free and may not distributed the net storm technology picture decompress free jpeg viewer converter this rather old program inferior the above programs many ways but will run without system quicktime you may forced use older systems does need bit quickdraw really old machines can use you can get from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app picture decompress hqx you must set the file type downloaded image file jpeg allow picture decompress open your machine too old run bit quickdraw mac plus for instance gifconverter your only choice for single program jpeg viewing you don want pay for gifconverter use jpeg convert and free gif viewer more and more commercial mac applications are supporting jpeg although not all can deal with the usenet standard jfif format adobe photoshop version later can read and write jfif format jpeg files use the jpeg plug from the acquire menu you must set the file type downloaded jpeg file jpeg allow photoshop recognize amiga most programs listed this section are stored the aminet archive amiga physik unizh there are many mirror sites this archive and you should try use the closest one the usa good choice wuarchive wustl edu look under mirrors amiga physik unizh hamlab plus excellent jpeg viewer converter well being general image manipulation tool cheap shareware and can read several formats besides jpeg the current version demo version available from amiga physik unizh and mirror sites file amiga gfx edit hamlab lha the demo version will crop images larger than but otherwise fully functional rend shareware image renderer that can display jpeg ilbm and gif images the program can used create animations even capturing frames the fly from rendering packages like lightwave the current version available from amiga physik unizh and mirror sites file amiga gfx rend lha note although this directory supposedly for amigados programs the program will also run under amigados viewtek free jpeg ilbm gif anim viewer the current version available from amiga physik unizh and mirror sites file amiga gfx show viewtek lha you willing spend real money there are several commercial packages that support jpeg two are written thomas krehbiel the author rend and viewtek these are cinemorph standalone image morphing package and imagefx impressive bit image capture conversion editing painting effects and prepress package that also includes cinemorph both are distributed great valley products art department professional adpro from asdg inc the most widely used commercial image manipulation software for amigas imagemaster from black belt systems another well regarded commercial graphics package with jpeg support the free ijg jpeg software available compiled for amigas from amiga physik unizh and mirror sites directory amiga gfx conv file amigajpegv lha these programs convert jpeg from ppm gif targa formats the amiga world heavily infested with quick and dirty jpeg programs many based ancient beta test version the free ijg jpeg software thanks certain magazine that published same its disk the month without much notifying the authors among these are augjpeg newamyjpeg vjpeg and probably others have not even heard opinion anything older than ijg version march not worth the disk space stored you have such program trash and get something newer atari the free ijg jpeg software available compiled for atari etc from atari archive umich edu file atari graphics jpeg bin zoo these programs convert jpeg from ppm gif targa formats for monochrome monitors try mgif which manages achieve four level grayscale effect flickering version reads jpeg files available from atari archive umich edu file atari graphics mgif zoo have not heard any other free shareware jpeg capable viewers for ataris but surely there must some now pointers appreciated acorn archimedes changefsi supplied with risc version can convert from and view jpeg jfif format provision also made convert images jpeg although this must done from the cli rather than double clicking recent versions since the shareware program translator can handle jpeg along with about other image formats while older versions can found some archimedes bboards the current version only available registering with the author john kortink nutterbrink enschede the netherlands price dutch guilders about pounds there also commercial product called jpeg which provides jpeg read write functionality and direct jpeg viewing well host other image format conversion and processing options this more expensive but not necessarily better than the above programs contact software freepost cambridge tel portable software for almost any system none the above fits your situation you can obtain and compile the free jpeg conversion software described you also need viewer program your display bits less any gif viewer will fine you have display with more color capability try find viewer that can read targa ppm bit image files there are numerous commercial jpeg offerings with more popping every day recommend that you not spend money one these unless you find the available free shareware software vastly too slow that case purchase hardware assisted product ask pointed questions about whether the product complies with the final jpeg standard and about whether can handle the jfif file format many the earliest commercial releases are not and never will compatible with anyone else files you are looking for source code work with free portable code for jpeg compression available from the independent jpeg group which lead package containing our source code documentation and some small test files available from several places the official archive site for this source code ftp net look under directory graphics jpeg the current release jpegsrc tar this compressed tar file don forget retrieve binary mode you can retrieve this file ftp uucp you are and don know how cope with tar format you may prefer zip format which you can find simtel and mirror sites see note above file msdos graphics jpegsrc zip this file will also available compuserve the graphsupport forum pics library jpsrc zip you have ftp access you can retrieve the source from your nearest comp sources misc archive version appeared issues volume you don know how retrieve comp sources misc postings see the faq article how find sources referred the top section the free jpeg code provides conversion between jpeg jfif format and image files gif pbmplus ppm pgm utah rle and truevision targa file formats the core compression and decompression modules can easily reused other programs such image viewers the package highly portable have tested many machines ranging from pcs crays have released this software for both noncommercial and commercial use companies are welcome use the basis for jpeg related products not ask royalty although ask for acknowledgement product literature see the readme file the distribution for details hope make this software industrial quality although with anything that free offer warranty and accept liability the independent jpeg group volunteer organization you like contribute improving our software you are welcome join what all this hoopla about color quantization most people don have full color bit per pixel display hardware typical display hardware stores fewer bits per pixel can display fewer distinct colors time display full color image the computer must map the image into appropriate set representative colors this process called color quantization this something misnomer color selection would better term stuck with the standard usage though clearly color quantization lossy process turns out that for most images the details the color quantization algorithm have much more impact the final image quality than any errors introduced jpeg except the very lowest jpeg quality settings since jpeg full color format converting color jpeg image for display bit less hardware requires color quantization this true for all color jpegs even you feed less color gif into jpeg what comes out the decompressor not colors but thousands colors this happens because jpeg lossiness affects each pixel little differently two pixels that started with identical colors will probably come out with slightly different colors each original color gets smeared into group nearby colors therefore quantization always required display color jpeg colormapped display regardless the image source the only way avoid quantization ask for gray scale output incidentally because this effect nearly meaningless talk about the number colors used jpeg image even you attempted count the number distinct pixel values different jpeg decoders would give you different results because roundoff error differences occasionally see posted images described color jpeg this tells that the poster hasn read this faq and probably converted the jpeg from gif jpegs can classified color gray scale just like photographs but number colors just isn useful concept for jpeg the other hand gif image definition has already been quantized fewer colors gif does have definite number colors its palette and the format doesn allow more than palette entries for purposes usenet picture distribution gif has the advantage that the sender precomputes the color quantization recipients don have this also the disadvantage gif you stuck with the sender quantization the sender quantized different number colors than what you can display you have quantize resulting much poorer image quality than you had quantized once from full color image furthermore the sender didn use high quality color quantization algorithm you out luck for this reason jpeg offers the promise significantly better image quality for all users whose machines don match the sender display hardware jpeg full color image can quantized precisely match the user display hardware furthermore you will able take advantage future improvements quantization algorithms there lot active research this area purchase better display hardware get better view jpeg images you already have with gif you stuck forevermore with what was sent also worth mentioning that many gif viewing programs include rather shoddy quantization routines you view color gif color ega display for example you are probably getting much worse image than you need this partly inevitable consequence doing two color quantizations one create the gif one display but often also due sloppiness jpeg conversion programs will forced use high quality quantizers order get acceptable results all and normal use they will quantize directly the number colors displayed thus jpeg likely provide better results than the average gif program for low color resolution displays well high resolution ones finally ever growing number people have better than bit display hardware already bit color displays true bit displays workstations and macintoshes etc for these people gif already obsolete cannot represent image the full capabilities their display jpeg images can drive these displays much more effectively thus jpeg all around better choice than gif for representing images machine independent fashion how does jpeg work the buzz words know are chrominance subsampling discrete cosine transforms coefficient quantization and huffman arithmetic entropy coding this article long enough already not going say more than that here for technical information see the comp compression faq this available from the news answers archive rtfm mit edu files pub usenet news answers compression faq part you need help using the news answers archive see the top this article what about lossless jpeg there great deal confusion this subject the jpeg committee did define truly lossless compression algorithm one that guarantees the final output bit for bit identical the original input however this lossless mode has almost nothing common with the regular lossy jpeg algorithm and offers much less compression present very few implementations lossless jpeg exist and all them are commercial saying the free jpeg software does not get you lossless image what does get rid deliberate information loss the coefficient quantization step there still good deal information loss the color subsampling step with the free jpeg code you can also say sample turn off subsampling keep mind that many commercial jpeg implementations cannot cope with the resulting file even with both quantization and subsampling turned off the regular jpeg algorithm not lossless because subject roundoff errors various calculations the maximum error few counts any one pixel value highly unlikely that this could perceived the human eye but might concern you are doing machine processing image this minimum loss setting regular jpeg produces files that are perhaps half the size uncompressed bit per pixel image true lossless jpeg provides roughly the same amount compression but guarantees bit for bit accuracy you have application requiring lossless storage images with less than bits per pixel per color component you may want look into the jbig bilevel image compression standard this performs better than jpeg lossless such images jpeg lossless superior jbig images with more bits per pixel furthermore jpeg public domain least with huffman back end while the jbig techniques are heavily covered patents why all the argument about file formats strictly speaking jpeg refers only family compression algorithms does not refer specific image file format the jpeg committee was prevented from defining file format turf wars within the international standards organizations since can actually exchange images with anyone else unless agree common file format this leaves with problem the absence official standards number jpeg program writers have just gone off their own thing and result their programs aren compatible with anybody else the closest thing have facto standard jpeg format some work that been coordinated people cube microsystems they have defined two jpeg based file formats jfif jpeg file interchange format low end format that transports pixels and not much else tiff jpeg aka tiff extension the aldus tiff format tiff high end format that will let you record just about everything you ever wanted know about image and lot more besides tiff lot more complex than jfif and may well prove less transportable because different vendors have historically implemented slightly different and incompatible subsets tiff not likely that adding jpeg the mix will anything improve this situation both these formats were developed with input from all the major vendors jpeg related products reasonably likely that future commercial products will adhere one both standards believe that usenet should adopt jfif the replacement for gif picture postings jfif simpler than tiff and available now the tiff spec has only recently been officially adopted and still unusably vague some crucial details even when tiff jpeg well defined the jfif format likely widely supported lowest common denominator tiff jpeg files may never transportable particular case that people may interested apple quicktime software for the macintosh quicktime uses jfif compatible format wrapped inside the mac specific pict structure conversion between jfif and quicktime jpeg pretty straightforward and several mac programs are available see mac portion section you have editor that handles binary files you can strip quicktime jpeg pict down jfif hand see section for details another particular case handmade software programs gif jpg jpg gif and image alchemy these programs are capable reading and writing jfif format default though they write proprietary format developed hsi this format not readable any non hsi programs and should not used for usenet postings use the switch get jfif output this applies old versions these programs the current releases emit jfif format default you still should careful not post hsi format files unless you want get flamed people non platforms how recognize which file format have and what about you have alleged jpeg file that your software won read likely hsi format some other proprietary jpeg based format you can tell what you have inspecting the first few bytes the file jfif standard file will start with the characters hex followed two variable bytes often hex followed jfif you see the start but not the rest you may have raw jpeg file this probably decodable jfif software worth try anyway hsi files start with hsi you out luck unless you have hsi software portions the file may look like plain jpeg data but they won decompress properly with non hsi programs macintosh pict file jpeg compressed will have couple hundred bytes header followed jfif header scan for jfif strip off everything before the and you should able read anything else proprietary format not jpeg all you are lucky the file may consist header and raw jpeg data stream you can identify the start the jpeg data stream look for try stripping off everything before that uuencoded usenet postings the characteristic jfif pattern begin line whereas uuencoded hsi files will start with begin line you learn check for the former you can save yourself the trouble downloading non jfif files what about arithmetic coding the jpeg spec defines two different back end modules for the final output compressed data either huffman coding arithmetic coding allowed the choice has impact image quality but arithmetic coding usually produces smaller compressed file typical images arithmetic coding produces file percent smaller than huffman coding all the file size numbers previously cited are for huffman coding unfortunately the particular variant arithmetic coding specified the jpeg standard subject patents owned ibm and mitsubishi thus you cannot legally use arithmetic coding unless you obtain licenses from these companies the fair use doctrine allows people implement and test the algorithm but actually storing any images with dubious best least the short run recommend that people not worry about arithmetic coding the space savings isn great enough justify the potential legal hassles particular arithmetic coding should not used for any images exchanged usenet there some small chance that the legal situation may change the future stay tuned for further details does loss accumulate with repeated compression decompression would nice having compressed image with jpeg you could decompress manipulate crop off border say and recompress without any further image degradation beyond what you lost initially unfortunately this not the case general recompressing altered image loses more information though usually not much was lost the first time around the next best thing would that you decompress image and recompress without changing then there further loss you get identical jpeg file even this not true least not with the current free jpeg software essentially problem accumulation roundoff error you repeatedly compress and decompress the image will eventually degrade where you can see visible changes from the first generation output usually takes many such cycles get visible change one the things our list see accumulation error can avoided limited but not optimistic about any case the most that could possibly guaranteed would that compressing the unmodified full color output djpeg the original quality setting would introduce further loss even such simple changes cropping off border could cause further roundoff error degradation you wondering why because the pixel block boundaries move you cropped off only multiples pixels you might safe but that mighty limited capability the bottom line that jpeg useful format for archival storage and transmission images but you don want use intermediate format for sequences image manipulation steps use lossless format ppm rle tiff etc while working the image then jpeg when you are ready file away aside from avoiding degradation you will save lot compression decompression time this way what are some rules thumb for converting gif images jpeg stated earlier you will lose some amount image information you convert existing gif image jpeg you can obtain the original full color data the gif was made from far better make jpeg from that but you need save space and have only the gif work from here are some suggestions for getting maximum space savings with minimum loss quality the first rule when converting gif library look each jpeg make sure you are happy with before throwing away the corresponding gif that will give you chance the conversion with higher quality setting necessary some gifs may better left gifs explained section particular cartoon type gifs with sixteen fewer colors don convert well you may find that jpeg file reasonable quality will larger than the gif check the sizes too experience date suggests that large high visual quality gifs are the best candidates for conversion jpeg they chew the most storage offer the most potential savings and they convert jpeg with least degradation don waste your time converting any gif much under kbytes also don expect jpeg files converted from gifs small those created directly from full color originals maintain image quality you may have let the converted files much twice big straight through jpeg files would shoot for the size the gif file not suggested earlier comparisons many people have developed odd habit putting large constant color border around gif image while useless this was nearly free terms storage cost gif files not free jpeg files and the sharp border boundary can create visible artifacts ghost edges yourself favor and crop off any border before jpeging you are windows system manual and automatic cropping functions are very painless way this cjpeg default setting appropriate for full color input but for gif inputs settings often seem necessary avoid image degradation you apply smoothing suggested below the higher setting may not necessary color gifs photographs complex artwork are usually dithered fool your eye into seeing more than the colors that gif can actually store you enlarge the image you will see that adjacent pixels are often significantly different colors normal size the eye averages these pixels together produce the illusion intermediate color value the trouble with dithering that jpeg looks like high spatial frequency color noise and jpeg can compress noise very well the resulting jpeg file both larger and lower image quality than what you would have gotten from jpeging the original full color image you had get around this you want smooth the gif image before compression smoothing averages together nearby pixels thus approximating the color that you thought you saw anyway and the process getting rid the rapid color changes that give jpeg trouble appropriate use smoothing will often let you avoid using high factor thus further reducing the size the compressed file while still obtaining better looking output image than you get without smoothing with the free jpeg software products based simple smoothing capability built try smooth when converting gifs values seem work well for high quality gifs heavy handed dithering may require larger smoothing factors you can see regular fine scale patterns the gif image even without enlargement then strong smoothing definitely called for too large smoothing factor will blur the output image which you don want you are image processing wizard you can also smoothing with separate filtering program such pnmconvol from the pbmplus package however cjpeg built smoother lot faster than pnmconvol the upshot all this that cjpeg quality smooth probably good starting point for converting gifs but you really care about the image you want check the results and maybe try few other settings for more information about jpeg general the free jpeg software particular contact the independent jpeg group jpeg info uunet net tom lane organizer independent jpeg group internet tgl cmu edu bitnet tgl cmu edu carnegie
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic kendall opusii sears krsear ulkyvx louisville edu wrote the biggest killer imo one dreams are sadly shattered the hard rocks society version reality without the dream the motivation dies without the motivation the effort seems useless actually there are more possibilities one that with practice the hacker has become good and powerful manipulating data streams that goes simply underground possessing true power perhaps there need impress anyone with grady netcom com
comp.graphics	adobe photo shop type software for unix motif platforms appsoft image available for nextstep image processing program similar adobe photoshop reviewed the april issue publish magazine richardt
comp.graphics	adobe photo shop type software for unix motif platforms charles boesel writes article world std com sci image processing comp graphics wdm world std com wayne michael writes have been searching for quality image enhancement and manipulation package for unix motif platforms that comparable adobe photo shop for the mac stuff deleted understand that adobe working making photoshop available for the sgi indigo but that just rumor and wouldn bet until see but they are going release illustrator for the sgi real soon now illustrator for sgi shipping product adobe and sgi have announced that photoshop being ported sgi machines simillar announcement has been made adobe and sun for sun platforms dates have been announced the best knowledge zalman stern zalman adobe com adobe systems charleston pob mountain view just couple joyful little pervo goats akbar jeff
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic more cheerful note perhaps hackerism hacking isn completely dead someone else said take the gnu offerings for example free redistributable and often better than the commercial stuff take also the number papers published every year all the fields computer science the vast majority these papers detail original work real often exceptional merit and the authors are sharing this knowledge have fun roddi
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic think the main reason that the good old hacker days the young gates and jobs the world the computer was not widespread phenomenom now with the increased popularity the come plethora mundane business uses which required more practical minded and narrower focused programmers why hacker when you can get good job programming databases programs for accountants basically the yuppies caught and disciplined the hackers and molded them their own image carl christensen dept computer science christen astro ocis temple edu temple university curiouser and curiouser philadelphia usa
comp.graphics	wanted rendering lib for does any one know decent quality library routines for performing graphics modelling the ideally the routines would embeded our application program requirements wish list flat surface modelling simple phong shading optional ability plot hidden line drawings texture mapping both procedural and bit map modeling light sources local distant and spot lights ray tracing radiosity optional any comments would appreciated john chinnick jchinnic mach wlu phone john chinnick jchinnic mach wlu
comp.graphics	vesa driver for xga heard that there vesa driver for the xga card available compuserve just got this card and wondering this driver available ftp site anywhere news service has beeen erratic lately please mail walsh stolaf edu thanks advance
comp.graphics	help with world screen transfomation matrix need help creating perspective matrix like use this for transforming some texture mapping code got from graphics gems have many books which talk about this but none them simple plain english you have graphics gems talking about page like have perspective matrix that handles different field views and aspect course thank for your help yes course everything say personal opinion robert kyanko rob rjck oau org rob rjck uucp
comp.graphics	access bus access bus software creator contest intro access bus the access bus software creator contest announcement what access bus access bus new open industry standard for computer peripheral connectivity access bus serial protocol that uses simple low cost technology link multiple devices single port peripheral devices such keyboards keypads locators mice trackballs joysticks printers gloves digitizers sensors actuators data transmitters and others can easily daisy chained the host applications such cad cam data acquisition simulation virtual reality multiple player single games education and many many more can now take advantage access bus the technology that puts plug and play every the access bus offers advantages end users and developers systems and peripherals multiple devices connect the host computer with only one port common communication methods for number device types lead simplified hardware and software development open standard access bus enables cross platform use the same device access bus technological description access bus technology open specification enabling anyone implement host systems peripheral devices without fee royalty access bus has bus topology architecture that single host can accommodate peripheral devices access bus data rate kbits sec access bus physical layer access bus serial bus architecture based hardware protocol with one data line and one clock line standard low cost microcontrollers handle bit level handshaking including automatic arbitration and clock synchronization access bus software protocols the access bus communication protocol composed three levels protocol base protocol and application protocol protocol this simple and efficient protocol defines arbitration among contending masters without losing data provides for cooperative synchronization bus partners with different clock rates bus transactions include addressing framing bits into bytes and byte acknowledgment the receiver base protocol establishes the asymmetrical interconnect between host computer and multiple peripherals the host becomes the access bus manager the base protocol defines the format access bus message envelope which bus transaction with additional semantics including checksum unique features the base protocol are auto addressing and hot plugging auto addressing assigns devices with unique bus addresses without the need for setting jumpers switches hot plugging the ability attach and detach devices while the system running without rebooting application protocol this the highest level the access bus protocol which defines message semantics specific particular types devices each type requires different application protocol three broad device types have been identified keyboards locators and text devices access bus support the all three levels the access bus protocol are supported the add card implements the physical layer and uses the base protocol communicate with physical access bus devices access bus manager tsr under dos and dll under windows controls the operation the physical layer and interacts with the access bus device drivers drivers are available for multiple access bus keyboards locators and printers for dos and windows also available are language source code examples the interface from applications the device drivers contact abig the access bus industry group postal address altair way suite sunnyvale internet email abig netcom com fax voice
comp.graphics	call for papers for informatika vol this invitation send articles the informatica magazine the first fully international issue has been published and echoes are quite favourable for any information contact matjaz gams ijs dear colleague april number volume informatica now out print and some you will receive week you will see the journal structured the following way the editorial first page profiles second page biography editor this issue terry winograd the edited part papers mission and research reports plan for knowledge archives project japan and csli stanford and news and announcements this structure mentioned give you suggestion how could you help make the contents the journal significant diverse and interesting bringing your own views into the discourse great emphasis given the called editorial page this page expresses opinion belief the writing editor some problems within the scope computing and informatics extending into other concerning disciplines cybernetics advanced cognitive sciences mind informationally concerned neural sciences advanced technology photonics etc asked professor terry winograd write this page for number certainly would appreciate very much get suggestions possible offers from other editors who like express their strong directed beliefs concerning future development the area question the second page each number editor profile published the aim the profile twofold show his her professional achievements interests scientific and philosophical orientation one side narrate his her life story the environments which editors has lived and live the other side this kind story should instructive adequately factically faced contributing the understanding circumstances which editors have act and live the edited part edited papers still critical would like have stock accepted papers advance the issuing dates particular number can fixed january april july and october situation right now ask you help with contributions yours your colleagues collaborators students etc some critical views the contemporary development computing and informatics are appreciated special emphasis should given also originality which fresh ideas are coming into the circulation different professional communities reports different occasions symposia conferences meetings etc and particularly new books papers and interesting events are welcome you can send these news immediately also your secretary mail the other hand you can send books and other publications annual reports journals calls for papers etc for reviewing and publishing informatica the editorial staff will manage the rest mail functioning satisfactorily please use every respect you can submit editorial notes profiles reports news and even complete papers written standard latex format especially formulas received several final corrected texts number from different sites russia etc this way you can compose reports from already typed texts using your own choice and editing and submit them the contact person matjaz gams ijs who always being your disposal you will receive prompt confirmation and any information concerning our common interest and job the end please not forget need your cooperation and help every mentioned respect the aim informatica open various possibilities communication concerning strong scientific and philosophical orientations well those coming still unrevealed and the way become significant please not apprehend give proposals suggestions and certainly contributions via the mail and other means sincerely yours anton zeleznikar editor chief
comp.graphics	anti aliasing raytracing question article slb lbu mserv coulter daresbury writes everyone was woundering someone could answer simple query for raytracing and anti aliasing stuff deleted have similiar question relating anti alaising that friend has asked have posted the more knowledgable this group sorry this faq what anti alaising methods persistance vision polyray use thank you advance you can either email reply flame faq dwa
comp.graphics	need algorithm which decide whether point inside space defined planes hey looking for algorithm which decide whether point inside space which was defined points with space defined points mean space defined closed meshes defined points like this but this simple example the sides are parallel but problem the sides can non parallel and the opposite sides must not have the same size etc please mail your informations thanks for your great efforts oliver name kretzschmar inst ike university stuttgart phone pfaffenwaldring fax stuttgart email wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart
comp.graphics	help with world screen transfomation matrix article vnmv rjck uucp rob rjck uucp robert kyanko writes need help creating perspective matrix like use this for transforming some texture mapping code got from graphics gems have many books which talk about this but none them simple plain english you have graphics gems talking about page like have perspective matrix that handles different field views and aspect course thank for your help cos alpha horizontal sin alpha cos beta vertical sin beta far clipping value near clipping value matrix geir atle storhaug geir storhaug ffi phone office home
comp.graphics	graphics library for and sun are looking for source code which was developed silicon graphics sgi would like compile sun and there anyone already supporting and sun please respond also please respond anyone knows where the source code available thank you chandra sbi com jon sbi com
comp.graphics	svga hicolor johan conroy jconroy babel wrote have question about svga cards have tseng svga with memory and bit dacs far know display now can display bit pixel bit maps this card you can the least your hardware capable supporting this mode know nothing about your video bios though how silly but fool proof way install windows with colors wideo driver and display your pictures under windows cheese serge
comp.graphics	images can anyone around here point information regarding stereoscopic images believe saw some show room texas lone star illusions and they were amazing now heard that they were created with simple graphic program does anyone have any these images digitized really want find out much can thanks brian ccnext ucsf edu please reply this address
comp.graphics	compositing pictures was wondering anyone knows graphics package for the that will compositing series pictures what mean compositing say have live video clip digitized panning around living room and computer generated bird flying around the screen want combine these two series pictures that everywhere where the bird frames are black want the living room picture show through yes realize can this with genlock and own genlock but want able manual compositing also have composite one frame time assumed have that anyway but being able composite series frames would even better looked around and haven found package that will perform this help please
comp.graphics	compositing pictures article may torreypinesca ncr com chu torreypinesca ncr com patrick chu writes was wondering anyone knows graphics package for the that will compositing series pictures what mean compositing say have live video clip digitized panning around living room and computer generated bird flying around the screen want combine these two series pictures that everywhere where the bird frames are black want the living room picture show through yes realize can this with genlock and own genlock but want able manual compositing also have composite one frame time assumed have that anyway but being able composite series frames would even better looked around and haven found package that will perform this help please you can get the live animation and the computer generated animation into autodesk animator fli flc format autodesk animator will this for you can take one animation make certain color clear and overlay over another animation not have way right now convert avi mpg files animator files animator will also import series gif files create animation your video capture stuff can create this might work vance gloster gloster inference com
comp.graphics	tga viewer for ati ultra hello the subject line says all looking for tga file viewer for the ati ultra card should support the true color modes course someone knows where find one via ftp please let know thanx oliver klimek
comp.graphics	gamma correction can someone who knows what they talking about add faq entry gamma correction thanks mark
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic dorsai dorsai org crawls dorsai dorsai org charles rawls writes the hacker ethic alive and well here know what you speak and only answer screw you have what make you feel right amen too have learned example specifically yours what can say but keep the faith there are others who likewise but dorsai leads the way unlike other services that are commercial nature dorsai community based service while others charge monthly fees for access dorsai accepts donations from those who can afford contribute while other systems don respond user input dorsai thrives other systems sell hardware for profit dorsai donates hardware community service groups and individuals who couldn afford normally dorsai lives due the hacker ethic charles jack skip cara ira mark david etc etc etc sleepless nights and days working equipment thats been assembled the embassy and modifying what ever else available work the first time order keep the slip line heres you bud one the few that decided stay and damn glad that did carlos dominguez sys admin owner kibbitzer ooo ooo root carlos uucp uupsi jpradley carlos carlos ask about helldiver carlos carlos jpr com guaranteed address
comp.graphics	vga graphics library article mwca uucp bill mwca uucp bill sheppard writes many high end graphics cards come with source code for doing basic graphics sorts things change colors draw points lines polygons fills etc does such library exist for generic vga graphics cards chips hopefully the public domain this would for the purpose compiling under non dos operating system running standard check the server code for xfree daniel ortmann talmidim ndsu electrical engineering ortmann plains nodak edu shalom fargo north dakota
comp.graphics	autodesk bbs does autodesk has bbs
comp.graphics	siggraph online experimental publication available try ing publications may online siggraph org there rosalee
comp.graphics	pov animating attempt animation with pov have created two little programs one program that will perform morph between any two points given the amount frames for the morph and then will write the points and the function translate rotate etc out file then have perl script that will read the list functions and insert them into pov file given line had hoped this would let simple animation however have discovered that simply performing incremental rotations object will not spin stationary object but will actually rotate the object about the axis now know easy way around this would first translate the object the origin perform the rotation and then move back but know there must another way around this had thought perhaps was because had created objects the origin and then translated them new point and then done the rotation which could cause this behavior however this occurs objects that are not translated all any help appreciated ttknock bbs santafe edu
comp.graphics	gifs tek was skimming through few gophers and bumped into one nih with database that included images gif format while have not yet worked out the kinks getting the gopher client call viewer figure that the majority the users here are not environment instead using dos and kermit with kermit supporting tek emulation for graphics display does anyone know package that would allow tek display gif image would more use the local population plug something this sort the picture command instead xview xloadimage andrew brennan hal hahnemann edu
comp.graphics	products handle hdtv moving pircture sec kazsato twics writes like know there any system cpu array framebuffer which can play and record hdtv quality moving picture realtime hdtv has about frame recording playing moving picture will need about sec bandwidth thinking treat the raw data not compressed finding disk array that can sec will difficult the fastest ones know about are from maximum strategy ibm also sells these they can attach hippi sec bit for these kinds data rates you need more than scsi for connections their latest model the raid model gen only does sec but think this may limitation only the hippi channel and that customer needs have not exceeded that speed since their older model was faster they are also not idle must working newer products that might faster and are small company you might able ask about custom interfaces they still marketed the older faster model few mongths ago maximum strategy inc buckeye court milpitas sales maxstrat com you might still want look into compression will very difficult keep the hippi bus fully working all times sustained throughput might come close maximum burst rate interesting problem tell more you can anyone can advise what kind product should look into please mail will appriciate the vendor mail address price the products actual performance data the products any info will help thanks advance kaz sato tokyo japan mail kazsato twics dick wilmot editor independent raid report
comp.graphics	wanted mpeg description sources encoders decoders please help with mpeg description sources decoders encoders great thanks advance maximus origin mister postman bbs
comp.graphics	gif dstudio far simply mapping your logo whatever onto cube sphere quite easy just either copy the gif you want mapped into the map directory add map path the directory where currently then into the materials editor and make new material with that the bit map voila zippy cyberden the cyberden public access waffle usenet system
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic article may vxcrna cern filipe vxcrna cern vinci writes blah blah talking about hackers you know wow new proof for complete problem you guys eurpoe really got your stuff together base step deleted too bad inductive step but anyway poor golfers bad carpenters bad surgeons are not thieves your assertion that hacker thief unsupported your argument imho the narrower view that hacker when associated with the computing environment dishonest expert not widespread inductive hypothesis therefore conclude that you call yourself hacker and somebody perceives you thief then this person belongs very very small group that has some computer knowledge but not enough know the wider and original meaning the word course one can always know this and disregard nonetheless then equate hacker thief giving substance humpty assertion even though kind reverse way fodder step finally true hacker does not name himself herself one for this title that bestowed the befuddled sysadmins and users large sign truly great hacker introduced someone who says nahh just know thing two people always exagerate filipe santos english not first language plse forgetful mistakes like mother always said you can say something nice was that can say something right kxh this the signature file what you think
comp.graphics	pov tga having slight problem with the pov raytracer not sure this the correct group post not create tga files unix machine using pov then when download them display they listed bad files but when create the file displays fine are unix tga incompatible with the easy solution this problem would unix targa gif converter anyone know where could find one any help this subject appreciated kevin
comp.graphics	tex texture map format was avalon today and found texture maps some tex and txc format something never encountered before these are obviously not tex latex files you have clue how can convert these something reasonable please let know brian
comp.graphics	gamma correction article meinnrc gap caltech edu madler cco caltech edu mark adler writes can someone who knows what they talking about add faq entry gamma correction thanks get regular questions about gamma correction since great pains deal with properly xli the image loader program maintain here explanation often use answer these questions this might suitable for inclusion the faq graeme gill note gamma correction and images author graeme gill graeme labtam date what all this gamma stuff anyway although would nice think that image image there are lot complications not only are there whole bunch different image formats gif jpeg tiff etc etc there whole lot other technical stuff that makes dealing with images bit complicated gamma one those things you ever downloaded images from bbs the net you probably noticed with most image viewing programs that some images look some look too dark and some look too light why this you may ask this gamma correction the lack why need gamma correction all gamma correction needed because the nature crts cathode ray tubes the monitors usually used for viewing images you have some sort real live scene and turn into computer image measuring the amount light coming from each point the scene then you have created linear gamma corrected image this good thing many ways because you can manipulate the image the values the image file were light adding and multiplying will work just like real light the real world now you take the image file and turn each pixel value into voltage and feed into crt you find that the crt doesn give you amount light proportional the voltage the amount light coming from the phosphor the screen depends the the voltage something like this light out voltage crt gamma you just dump your nice linear image out crt the image will look much too dark fix this you have gamma correct the image first you need the opposite what the crt will the image that things cancel out and you get what you want you have this your image gamma corrected image image crt gamma for most crts the crt gamma somewhere between and that all why does seem complicated the problem that not all display programs gamma correction also not all sources images give you linear images video cameras video signals general because this lot images already have some gamma correction done them and you are rarely sure how much you try and display one those images with program that does gamma correction for you the image gets corrected twice and looks way light you display one those images with program that doesn gamma correction then will look vaguely right but not perfect because the gamma correction not exactly right for you particular crt whose fault all this really three things one all those display programs out there that don gamma correction properly another that most image formats don specify standard gamma don have some way recording what their gamma correction the third thing that not many people understand what gamma correction all about and create lot images with varying gamma least two file formats the right thing the utah graphics toolkit rle format has semi standard way recording the gamma image the jfif file standard that uses jpeg compression specifies that the image encoded must have gamma linear image but not everyone obeys the rules some image loaders for instance xli image utility allow you specify not only the gamma the monitor you are using but the individual gamma values image you are trying view other image viewers another image program and utilities the pbm toolkit provide ways changing the gamma image but you have figure out the overall gamma correction yourself allowing for undoing any gamma correction the image has and then the gamma correction you need suite your crt monitor note that doesn provide easy way modifying the gamma image you need adjust the and curves the appropriate gamma the coledit controls altering the intensity the hsv controls doesn the right thing fails take account the effect gamma has and this tends give tint the image how can figure out what viewer does what gamma screen has the simplest way that try loading the file chkgamma jpg provided with xli distribution which jfif jpeg format file containing two grayscale ramps the ramps are chosen look linear the human eye one using continuous tones and the other using dithering your viewer does the right thing and gamma corrects images then the two ramps should look symmetrical and the point which they look equally bright should almost exactly half way from the top the bottom find this point helps you move away little from the screen and focus your eyes bit your viewer doesn gamma correction then left hand ramp will have long dark part and short white part and the point equal brightness will above the center your viewer does have way setting the right amount gamma correction for display then the equal brightness point above center increase the gamma and decrease below the center the value will usually around with xli for instance you can adjust the display gamma with the dispgamma flag and once you got right you can set the display gamma environment variable your profile how figure out what the gamma image this the most tricky bit general rule seems that lot true color bit ppm jpg images have gamma linear although there are many about that have some gamma correction seems that the majority pseudo color images bit images with color maps gif etc are gamma corrected some degree other your viewer does gamma correction then linear images will look good and gamma corrected images will look too light your viewer doesn gamma correction then linear images will look too dark and gamma corrected images will why linear images are sometimes not such good thing one the reason that many high quality formats such video use gamma correction that actually makes better use the storage medium this because the human eye has logarithmic response light and gamma correction has similar compression characteristic this means images could make better use bits per color for instance they used gamma correction the implication though that every time you want any image processing you should convert the bit image linear bits retain the same accuracy since little popular software does this and none the popular image formats can agree standard gamma correction factor difficult justify gamma corrected images the popular level some image formats can standardize particular gamma and image manipulation software takes care use extra precision when dealing with linearized internal data then gamma corrected distribution images would good thing told that the kodak photocd format for instance has standard gamma correction factor that enables get the highest quality out the bits used hold the image
comp.graphics	help rectangle and parallelogram hope someone can help with the following problem sure there must known solution given rectangle defined and where and are constant and parallelogram defined and where are constants and not parallel lines not equal what the area their intersection what after some general algorithm suitable for all rectangles and parallelograms that can described the above equations the moment looks like going have look all possible cases and examine each seperately rectangle encloses parallelogram parallelogram encloses rectangle two corners parallelogram inside rectangle origin two corners parallelogram outside rectangle hope someone can help many thanks advance dave nettleton mail nettleton durham can you please any replies mail
comp.graphics	pict epsf etc map italy article chunter umab bitnet chunter umab bitnet writes does anybody know where can get graphic mac pict epsf tiff gif whatever italy looking for picture map italy even just the map italy showing the states provinces the freehand for windows clip art collection corel draw clip art has outline map italy jim powlesland internet powlesla acs ucalgary academic computing services voice university calgary message calgary alberta canada fax
comp.graphics	comp graphics faq there comp graphics faq and where jim powlesland internet powlesla acs ucalgary academic computing services voice university calgary message calgary alberta canada fax
comp.graphics	help animation for pcx gif files series images sun raster formats converted them pcx formats can the conversion others like gif well would like know any software that able animation for these formats and record the animation onto video tape thank you leong wai ming internet engp nusunix nus national university singapore bitnet engp nusvm nus
comp.graphics	information bmp files article gnbich med uovs gnbich med uovs charles herbst biofisika writes there anybody who can help with information the bmp file format please mail directly gnbich med uovs help will appreciated charles herbst have also been looking for this but have come with nothing have looked ftp ncsa uiuc edu which supposed have lot image specs email preferred there enough interest will post summary lise unit
comp.graphics	jpeg image compression frequently asked questions archive name jpeg faq last modified may this faq article discusses jpeg image compression suggestions for additions and clarifications are welcome new since version may added info imageviewer for next this article includes the following sections what jpeg why use jpeg when should use jpeg and when should stick with gif how well does jpeg compress images what are good quality settings for jpeg where can get jpeg software canned software viewers etc source code what all this hoopla about color quantization how does jpeg work what about lossless jpeg why all the argument about file formats how recognize which file format have and what about what about arithmetic coding does loss accumulate with repeated compression decompression what are some rules thumb for converting gif images jpeg sections are basic info that every jpeg user needs know sections are advanced info for the curious this article posted every weeks you can always find the latest version the news answers archive rtfm mit edu ftp fetch pub usenet news answers jpeg faq you don have ftp send mail mail server rtfm mit edu with body send usenet news answers jpeg faq many other faq articles are also stored this archive for more instructions use the archive send mail the same address with the words help and index quotes separate lines you don get reply the server may misreading your return address add line such path myname mysite specify your correct mail address reply what jpeg jpeg pronounced jay peg standardized image compression mechanism jpeg stands for joint photographic experts group the original name the committee that wrote the standard jpeg designed for compressing either full color gray scale digital images natural real world scenes does not work well non realistic images such cartoons line drawings jpeg does not handle black and white bit per pixel images nor does handle motion picture compression standards for compressing those types images are being worked other committees named jbig and mpeg respectively jpeg lossy meaning that the image you get out decompression isn quite identical what you originally put the algorithm achieves much its compression exploiting known limitations the human eye notably the fact that small color details aren perceived well small details light and dark thus jpeg intended for compressing images that will looked humans you plan machine analyze your images the small errors introduced jpeg may problem for you even they are invisible the eye useful property jpeg that the degree lossiness can varied adjusting compression parameters this means that the image maker can trade off file size against output image quality you can make extremely small files you don mind poor quality this useful for indexing image archives making thumbnail views icons etc etc conversely you aren happy with the output quality the default compression setting you can jack the quality until you are satisfied and accept lesser compression why use jpeg there are two good reasons make your image files smaller and store bit per pixel color data instead bit per pixel data making image files smaller big win for transmitting files across networks and for archiving libraries images being able compress mbyte full color file down kbytes makes big difference disk space and transmission time you are comparing gif and jpeg the size ratio more like four one more details below your viewing software doesn support jpeg directly you have convert jpeg some other format for viewing manipulating images even with jpeg capable viewer takes longer decode and view jpeg image than view image simpler format gif for instance thus using jpeg essentially time space tradeoff you give some time order store transmit image more cheaply worth noting that when network phone transmission involved the time savings from transferring shorter file can much greater than the extra time decompress the file let you the arithmetic yourself the other reason why jpeg will gradually replace gif standard usenet posting format that jpeg can store full color information bits pixel million colors instead less fewer colors you have only bit display hardware then this may not seem like much advantage you within couple years though bit gif will look obsolete black and white macpaint format does today furthermore for reasons detailed section jpeg far more useful than gif for exchanging images among people with widely varying color display hardware hence jpeg considerably more appropriate than gif for use usenet posting standard when should use jpeg and when should stick with gif jpeg not going displace gif entirely for some types images gif superior image quality file size both one the first things learn about jpeg which kinds images apply rule thumb jpeg superior gif for storing full color gray scale images realistic scenes that means scanned photographs and similar material jpeg superior even you don have bit display hardware and lot superior you see section for details gif does significantly better images with only few distinct colors such cartoons and line drawings particular large areas pixels that are all exactly the same color are compressed very efficiently indeed gif jpeg can squeeze these files much gif does without introducing visible defects this sort image best kept gif form particular single color borders are quite cheap gif files but they should avoided jpeg files jpeg also has hard time with very sharp edges row pure black pixels adjacent row pure white pixels for example sharp edges tend come out blurred unless you use very high quality setting again this sort thing not found scanned photographs but shows fairly often gif files borders overlaid text etc the blurriness particularly objectionable with text that only few pixels high you have gif with lot small size overlaid text don jpeg computer drawn images ray traced scenes for instance usually fall between scanned images and cartoons terms complexity the more complex and subtly rendered the image the more likely that jpeg will well the same goes for semi realistic artwork fantasy drawings and such plain black and white two level images should never converted jpeg you need least about gray levels before jpeg useful for gray scale images should also noted that gif lossless for gray scale images levels while jpeg not you have existing library gif images you may wonder whether you should convert them jpeg you will lose little image quality you section which argues that jpeg image quality superior gif only applies both formats start from full color original you start from gif you already irretrievably lost great deal information jpeg can only make things worse however the disk space savings may justify converting anyway this decision you have make for yourself you convert gif library jpeg see section for hints prepared leave some images gif format since some gifs will not convert well how well does jpeg compress images pretty darn well here are some sample file sizes for image have handy full color image ship harbor the first three files are for comparison purposes the rest were created with the free jpeg software described section file size bytes comments ship ppm original file ppm format compression bits bytes per pixel plus few bytes overhead ship ppm ppm file passed through unix compress compress doesn accomplish lot you note other text oriented compressors give similar results ship gif converted gif with ppmquant ppmtogif most the savings the result losing color info gif saves bits pixel not see sec ship jpg cjpeg highest useful quality setting this indistinguishable from the bit original least nonprofessional eyeballs ship jpg cjpeg default setting you have look mighty darn close distinguish this from the original even with both screen once ship jpg cjpeg this has slight defects you know what look for you could tell been jpeged without seeing the original still good image quality many recent postings usenet pictures groups ship jpg cjpeg jpeg characteristic blockiness becomes apparent this setting djpeg blocksmooth helps some still seen plenty usenet postings that were poorer image quality than this ship jpg cjpeg optimize optimize cuts table overhead blocky but perfectly satisfactory for preview indexing purposes note that this file tiny the compression ratio from the original this case jpeg can make file that factor four five smaller than gif comparable quality the file every bit good the gif better you have full color display this seems typical ratio for real world scenes what are good quality settings for jpeg most jpeg compressors let you pick file size image quality tradeoff selecting quality setting there seems widespread confusion about the meaning these settings quality does not mean keep the information some have claimed the quality scale purely arbitrary not percentage anything the name the game using jpeg pick the lowest quality setting smallest file size that decompresses into image indistinguishable from the original this setting will vary from one image another and from one observer another but here are some rules thumb the default quality setting very often the best choice this setting about the lowest you can without expecting see defects typical image try first you see defects then except for experimental purposes never above saying will produce file two three times large but hardly any better quality the image was less than perfect quality begin with you might able down without objectionable degradation the other hand you might need higher quality setting avoid further degradation the second case seems apply much the time when converting gifs jpeg the default about right for compressing bit images but usually better for converting gifs see section for more info you want very small file say for preview indexing purposes and are prepared tolerate large defects setting the range about right may amusing art note the quality settings discussed this article apply the free jpeg software described section and many programs based other jpeg implementations such image alchemy may use completely different quality scale some programs don even provide numeric scale just high medium low style choices where can get jpeg software most the programs described this section are available ftp you don know how use ftp see the faq article how find sources you don have direct access ftp read about ftpmail servers the same article that article appears regularly news answers you can get sending mail mail server rtfm mit edu with send usenet news answers finding sources the body the anonymous ftp list faq may also helpful usenet news answers ftp list faq the news answers archive note this list changes constantly you have copy more than couple months old get the latest jpeg faq from the news answers archive you are looking for canned software viewers etc the first part this list system specific programs that only run one kind system you don see what you want for your machine check out the portable jpeg software described the end the list note that this list concentrates free and shareware programs that you can obtain over internet but some commercial programs are listed too windows shareware excellent viewer for jpeg gif and many other image formats can also format conversion and some simple image manipulations available for ftp from export lcs mit edu file contrib tar version major upgrade with support for bit displays and many other improvements however brand new and still has some bugs lurking you prefer not the bleeding edge stick with version also available from export note that version not good choice you have bit display you get only bit color nor for converting bit images jpeg but works fine for converting gif and other bit images jpeg caution there glitch version sure check the save normal size checkbox when saving jpeg file the file will blurry another good choice for windows john cristy free imagemagick package also available from export lcs mit edu file contrib imagemagick tar this package handles many image processing and conversion tasks the imagemagick viewer handles bit displays correctly for colormapped displays does better though slower color quantization than the basic free jpeg software both the above are large complex packages you just want simple image viewer try xloadimage xli xloadimage supports jpeg its latest release xloadimage free and available from export lcs mit edu file contrib xloadimage tar xli variant version xloadimage said its fans somewhat faster and more robust than the original the current xli indeed faster and more robust than the current xloadimage least with respect jpeg files because has the ijg decoder while xloadimage using hacked over the next xloadimage release will fix this xli also free and available from export lcs mit edu file contrib xli tar both programs are said the right thing with bit displays dos this covers plain dos for windows programs see the next headings one good choice eric praetzel free dvpeg which views jpeg and gif files the current version available ftp from sunee uwaterloo file pub jpeg viewers dvpeg zip this good basic viewer that works either machines the user interface not flashy but functional another freeware jpeg gif tga viewer mohammad rezaei hiview the current version available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics zip hiview requires better cpu and vcpi compatible memory manager qemm and max work windows and not hiview currently the fastest viewer for images that are bigger than your screen for larger images scales the image down fit the screen rather than using panning scrolling most viewers you may may not prefer this approach but there denying that slows down loading large images considerably note installation bit tricky read the directions carefully shareware alternative colorview for dos this easier install than either the two freeware alternatives its user interface also much spiffier looking although personally find harder use more keystrokes inconsistent behavior faster than dvpeg but little slower than hiview least hardware for images larger than screen size dvpeg and colorview seem about the same speed and both are faster than hiview the current version available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics dcview zip requires vesa graphics driver you don have one look vesadrv zip vesa tsr zip from the same directory many recent pcs have built vesa driver don try load vesa driver unless colorview complains that the driver missing second shareware alternative fullview which has been kicking around the net for while but don know any stable archive location for the current rather old version inferior the above viewers anyway the author tells that new version fullview will out shortly and will submitted the simtel archives that time the well known gif viewer compushow cshow supports jpeg its latest revision however cshow jpeg implementation isn very good slow about half the speed the above viewers and image quality poor except color displays too bad have been nice see good jpeg capability cshow shareware available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos gif cshw zip due the remarkable variety graphics hardware any one these viewers might not work your particular machine you can get any them work you need use one the following conversion programs convert jpeg gif then view with your favorite gif viewer you have color hardware don use gif the intermediate format try find targa capable viewer instead vpic reputed the right thing with color displays the independent jpeg group free jpeg converters are ftpable from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics jpeg zip jpeg zip you have and extended memory these files are dos compilations the free source code described section they will convert jpeg and from gif targa and ppm formats handmade software offers free jpeg gif conversion tools gif jpg jpg gif these are slow and are limited conversion and from gif format particular you can get bit color output from jpeg the major advantage these tools that they will read and write hsi proprietary jpeg format well the usenet standard jfif format since hsi format files are rather widespread bbses this useful capability version these tools free prior versions were shareware get from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics gif jpg zip note not use hsi format for files posted internet since not readable non platforms handmade software also has shareware image conversion and manipulation package image alchemy this will translate jpeg files both jfif and hsi formats and from many other image formats can also display images demo version image alchemy version available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics alch zip note about simtel the internet key archive site for related programs simtel full name wsmr simtel army mil simtel runs non unix system with weird directory names where this document refers directory msdos graphics simtel that really means msdos graphics you are not physically milnet you should expect rather slow ftp transfer rates from simtel there are several internet sites that maintain copies mirrors the simtel archives most ftp users should one the mirror sites instead popular usa mirror site oak oakland edu which keeps simtel files pub msdos graphics you have ftp capability you can retrieve files from simtel mail see informational postings comp archives msdos announce find out how you are outside the usa consult the same newsgroup learn where your nearest simtel mirror microsoft windows there are several windows programs capable displaying jpeg images windows viewers are generally slower than dos viewers the same hardware due windows system overhead note that you can run the dos conversion programs described above inside windows dos window the newest entry winecj which free and extremely fast version available from ftp rahul net file pub bryanw jpeg wecj zip requires windows and more colors mode this frills viewer with the bad habit hogging the machine completely while decodes and the image quality noticeably worse than other viewers but fast you use anyway least for previewing jview freeware fairly fast has good line help and can write out the decompressed image windows bmp format but can create new jpeg files and doesn view gifs jview also lacks some other useful features the shareware viewers such brightness adjustment but excellent basic viewer the current version available from ftp cica indiana edu file pub win desktop jview zip mirrors this archive can found some other internet sites including wuarchive wustl edu winjpeg shareware displays jpeg gif targa tiff and bmp image files can write all these formats too can used converter has some other nifty features including color balance adjustment and slideshow the current version available from simtel and mirror sites see note above file msdos windows winjp zip this slow compatible version you register you get the only version which roughly faster colorview another shareware entry this was early and promising contender but has not been updated some time and this point has real advantages over winjpeg you want try anyway the current version available from ftp cica indiana edu file pub win desktop cview zip understand that new version will appearing once the authors are finished with colorview for dos dvpeg see dos heading also works under windows but only full screen mode not window the following files are available from hobbes nmsu edu note check pub uploads for more recent versions the hobbes moderator not very fast about moving uploads into their permanent directories pub graphics jpegv zip bit version free ijg conversion programs version pub all graphics jpeg zip bit version same for pub graphics imgarc zip image archiver image conversion viewing with graphical interface strong conversion functions viewing bit weaker shareware pub graphics pmjpeg zip pmjpeg port winjpeg popular viewer for windows see description windows section shareware pub graphics pmview zip pmview jpeg gif bmp targa pcx viewer gif viewing very fast jpeg viewing roughly the same speed the above two programs has image manipulation slideshow functions shareware macintosh most mac jpeg programs rely apple jpeg implementation which part the quicktime system extension you need have quicktime installed use quicktime you need better cpu and you need running system later you running system you must also install the bit quickdraw extension this built system you can get quicktime ftp from ftp apple com file dts mac quicktime quicktime hqx this file contains quicktime which better than several ways with respect jpeg marginally faster and considerably less prone crash when fed corrupt jpeg file however some applications seem have compatibility problems with mac users should keep mind that quicktime jpeg format pict jpeg not the same the usenet standard jfif jpeg format see section for details you post images usenet make sure they are jfif format most the programs mentioned below can generate either format the first choice probably jpegview free program for viewing images that are jfif format pict jpeg f